Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

well that's definitely in the 'unconfirmed' category, but even if it's remotely true.. without context that knowledge is still.. meh.. not entirely telling.

when i say context... so ESB is about to release in a few months and this rumor comes out:-
Luke dies!!! he wears Vaders mask n costume and gets his head cut off !!!
then a set photo gets leaked showing..


your eyes can deceive you.. don't trust them!

 

To be clear, I think there is no question that the story group has presented Kylo Ben as a "sympathetic villain" who exhibits moments of compassion. It is the evidence of his feeling the "pull of the light." Yet he has committed what most would consider the most heinous of acts by killing his own father. There is more conflict in this character than any other in Star Wars history, both for him and for us as the audience. The brilliance in this is that the character can go anywhere from here: redemption or absolute condemnation.

Having said all of the above, I want to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Isn't what you have described here as Ren's "compassion" for Rey the kind of behavior that an abuser exhibits toward his victim in order to try to justify his bad behavior and to engender a certain allegiance to him? Abusers are masters of drawing their victims close to them using what can appear to be "compassion," often in a kind of apologetic manner... I'm not saying this is definitely what is going on in the mind probe of Rey, but it arguably fits this profile.

Overall, the story group has provided us an incredibly complex villain, who can be interpreted (correctly, I might add) in many different ways. Despite our differing perspectives, we are all heavily invested in this character, as evidenced by this emotionally charged debate. Seems to me that this alone shows what a home run Kylo Ren is as our new villain.

 

Won't somebody please think of Poe Dameron???

Exactly, we all think different and we agree to disagree. And yet, we might disagree with each other perspectives, but we are not here to judge each other as individuals. Please everyone remember that.

“I am myself and my circumstance,” declared the 20th century Spanish liberal philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset. That statement was at the core of his beliefs, arguing that the individual cannot be extricated from his reality and that the interpretation of that reality is linked to the self. All preconceptions must be challenged in order to truly explore ideas and the universe.

So, let us not forget that.

Yeah, and even when at first I despised the guy so much, after all this time I have understood the beauty of the Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker and its aftermath, embodied on his grandson.

Maybe, or maybe not. As Supreme Leader Snoke said: "We shall see."

 

worthy of a cookie if i hadn't just eaten it !

yes! he challenges us, and no matter which way he goes now.. he will challenge us further which can only be a good thing.

completely agree. we may not even yet fully know how deep the rabbit hole is that started with Anakin's fall.. i can't wait to find out.

 

+1

Please accept a bottle of the finest Alderaanian wine as a compliment for such a wise post.

 

I agree with @Dark Toilet and @PrincessLeiaCB3 about the problems about our personal filters as a result of our different life experiences within our personal social surroundings.
Oth it depends on HOW our personal opinions are presented.
If the background "tone" gets agressiv the emotional message starts to dominate over the rational message and we will not develop and write another 200 messages with same results.
Who knows,
perhaps we all have to laugh out loud in Dec 2017 and all of us have made their bill without RJ and he surprises us with a twist nobody of us had in mind .

My simple message is that I refuse to accept that somebody is too bad to be worth a comeback, because I love to see the good in people.
But I know also, if somebody would do real harm to my daughter (even if I think she is not the personified victim, because she is a strong little person and does karate since 4, so I believe the attacker would have big troubles himself) I would be able to do things I don't want to talk about here.
And therefore I am sorry if I hurt someones feelings and adressed old wounds with some of my posts, it was not intentionally.

 

this is a great question! and totally fair.

here's the way i see it (or a variety of ways to look at the facets):

• Ren isn't manipulative. we have no evidence of this--to the contrary, he pretty much says what he thinks/feels. if he's using a "technique" to get what he wants, he's not likely aware of it in the slightest. so no, it doesn't actually seem to fit his profile at all.
• that said, for argument's sake, let's say he is being coersive. it's his job as an interrogator, so it doesn't necessarily remove the compassion from the equation. he could still just bull-in-a-china shop and get what he wants much quicker, but he obviously has other curiosities/agendas (one of which is to not make Rey fear him--and since he's sincere in his politics, then there's no reason to assume he's not being sincere in wanting her to understand him).
  
• let's say he is trying to get her to divulge herself in a roundabout way: he'd only be doing what had been done to him by Snoke, so again, it's subconscious at best (abuse is fundamentally cyclical).

even all that said, i still challenge the word "abuse" here. you can't abuse someone with whom you have no relationship of trust. i get that you're saying he's trying to gain her trust, but then i would ask why?

what does he actually want from Rey at this moment?
and is what he wants really a bad thing?
yes, acknowledging again that he's going about it in the worst possible way, but it seems like there's too much assumption of malicious intent here.
if the sides were switched and Ren was working for the Resistance and Rey was an imperial he'd captured: would we really be giving him a hard time for being compassionate? hahaha

oh i do...

too too much. [snert]

 

I do agree that our very personal life experiences are responsible how we view Kylo and his possible future. Maybe it is good to have such discusssions leading to VIII, but I'm simply not quite sure they want quite emotional separated groups like pro Kylo/Reylo and anti Kylo/Reylo, but who knows ...really no idea.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2016 ---

you mean another thing Luke failed? I hope not.

 

Oh yeah. *big grin*

Not at all. This is not really a debate where you have pick a side, it is basically a space where we can talk about our speculations and theories about each of the characters, obviously in a civilised way and respecting each other' points of view.

I reckon it's better that way since here it is not black or white: we deal on many shades on grey regarding our hopes and expectations, and certainly the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.

By saying that, I am not a Reylo fan, but if it happens, hey no big deal since I could see the reasoning behind such a pairing. And yet, at this point of the trilogy, it is as if back in 1979, people were shipping Luke and Leia based on their interactions onscreen in ANH. ("We know nothing, Jon Snow.")

 

I would much prefer that the Cantina track the number of goodies and adult beverages (something I like to call "Wobbly Pops") that are bestowed upon us, rather than Trophy Points or Credits.

I see what you are saying, and as I and others have pointed out, a great deal of this is based on our own subjective view. But to continue the friendly debate (which I do so enjoy!)... this is how I see the overall context of the conflict.

There is no question in the ST so far that the First Order and its henchman Kylo Ren are the aggressors. While Ren certainly "wears his heart on his sleeve" and suffers from impulse control, I think its a stretch to say he isn't manipulative, coercive, or abusive. He is all about results, and so everything he does is a means to an end. Including thrashing the control panel, as Ren exudes intimidation toward everyone. To me, "abusive" is another way of saying unnecessarily violent or an abuse of power. So let's review the context of the First Order conflict and Ren's "relationship" with Rey, at least as some may see it:

• They (the First Order) have built a solar-system-destroying super-weapon, just like their predecessor, the oppressive and abusive Empire.
• They (and Ren) are the ones who exterminate an entire village (war crime) just because they are looking for a map.
• Ren executes the village leader in a manner that can also only be described as a war crime (captured and defenseless).
• Ren tortures (more war crimes: waterboarding anyone?) a captive pilot to determine the location of the map.
• They pursue (and stalk) the rogue stormtrooper and scavenger who happen to come into possession of that map.
• Before Rey's "interrogation," they blow up the castle where all of Rey's new friends were located and Ren chases her through the forest, freezes her, and holds a fiery lightsaber at her throat, before he knocks her unconscious. Rey's facial expressions throughout this ordeal demonstrate the sheer terror she feels. But apparently Ren "lovingly" carries her to his personal shuttle.
• During the interrogation, in which Rey is physically restrained, Ren makes a point to intimidate Rey by telling her he can just take what he wants and then forces himself inside her mind. (Many victims of similar "invasive" assaults know their attacker, but many others do not. In my mind, both are instances of abuse. Abuse of power.)
• You are right that Ren doesn't just go straight for the information he wants (she is resisting him after all), but instead he goes gallivanting through her mind about her fears and dreams, arguably just to demonstrate and exert his control over her.
• He is ultimately surprised that she is able to resist him, making her an even more attractive and bigger challenge for him in the future. This, to some, is the epitome of psychopathic and abusive behavior.
• When Ren encounters Rey in the forest on Starkiller, after she has fully demonstrated her resistance of his advances by pulling the saber to herself, Ren doesn't try to kill her or dispose of her. Instead, he tries to control her by offering to be her teacher. This is precisely what abusers try to do to their victims. It is not about love, compassion, sex, or anything other than control.

It is through this prism of perspective that I suggest that Ren is manipulative and coercive, despite his lack of emotional control at times, which you correctly point out is a learned and cyclical behavior he has inherited from Snoke (if not others, like Leia ). If the roles were reversed and he was working for the Resistance? The short answer is, none of the above behaviors would have been used, let alone condoned. They are the good guys!

So, as you ask, what does Ren want from Rey? The simplest answer during the interrogation scene is that he wants to see the map, which I am sure you are suggesting. But there is a deeper, more complex answer: He wants control. Control of himself. Control over his emotions. Control of his pain. Control over her. "It is you." Ren is obviously very curious, intrigued and even attracted to Rey because she presents a challenge to him. And he wants to exert his power, authority and control over her.

I humbly submit that this is the objective of all abusive people.

Again, I truly enjoy the debate so I don't want anyone to misconstrue this as a personal challenge (I know I have interjected a certain amount of snark above... the emoticons beg for it!). There are great examples of Ren's "compassion" and "abuse" on both sides. It's what makes him a fascinating character. Just think of this as an opportunity for thoughtful discussion.

 

see, you're operating from an assumption about what Ren wants. like you said: that then colors everything.

i submit to you that Ren doesn't want to control Rey, he wants to earn her trust so that she will be a companion, a playmate, a friend to him.

look at the theme of loneliness throughout the movie: people who are isolated, who don't know comfort, feel discarded, abandoned (Rey, Finn, Ren).
all through the movie they are seeking connections: family, meaning, purpose, friendship.

Ren sees in Rey something he likely has never seen before: a true peer.
he has always been alone and now he's stumbled on this girl who maybe is just like him.
so he goes sifting into her mind to verify that: yes, she's lonely, yes, she has aspirations, yes, she longs for a father--things Ren feels most deeply too.

which, again, is not to say his way of courting friends is bafflingly awful, but this is happening in the midst of a mission in which he has other necessary objectives.

you trot out all the bad things he's done with the First Order as evidence of an "abusive" nature, but it's just as arguable that what he does is not who he is.
he's at war with that throughout the whole film:

he lets Finn go in (yet another) moment of compassion (per Kennedy).
he's supposed to be fetching the map, but he gets distracted by this interesting girl instead.
he tries to stop Snoke from ordering the Illeenium system destroyed.
he doesn't want to fight with Rey, he wants her to join the club so they can be all bff.

he's as ineffective a villain as he is at being "good". he's leaning Dark somewhere in the middle.
and to suggest that he has sufficient focus to plot, manipulate, coerce, beguile, whatever--well everything he does speaks to the contrary.
which, again, is not to say it might not be subconscious to him. whatever manipulating he's suffered growing up and going Dark, he's likely channeling into his behavior--it allows him to do the heinous things he does. and yes, then justify it.

but i will submit this also: not only is his intention toward Rey more pure of heart (for lack of a better expression) than a matter of control, his reasons for going Dark are likely more sincerely about doing "right" than any personal gain. it's just unfortunate that his sense of "right" has been so profoundly perverted on all levels.

and just to look at it from your side of the fence: yes, it's entirely possible that Ren is just a narcissistic creep who thinks the galaxy should submit to him, but that's not the character who begs for help from his grandfather, and not the character who nearly cries on the bridge because he just wants to go home but thinks he can't.

 

No question our perception of the character of Kylo Ren is manipulated by our own subjective beliefs and interpretations. "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." And I have no problem with your perceptions. Again, it is a testament to what a great character Kylo Ren is that he can elicit such differing beliefs.

The reason I trotted out all of the bad things Ren has done with the First Order is to try to present some logical, albeit subjective, context for how we might judge Ren's character. Note that I am not saying how we should judge his character...

I agree 100% that Ren believes that he is ultimately on the side of right. And he may very well want someone with whom he can feel a certain kinship. A companion, a playmate, a friend to him. He increasingly sees Rey in that light, but not until after the "interrogation" when she resisted him. Up until then, what he did was arguably abusive. As you readily acknowledge, his perception of right is profoundly perverted and he goes about trying to attract Rey to him the wrong way. Even after the interrogation, when perhaps he has a new found "respect" for her (I don't think we can really call it that...), he starts to increasingly become more manipulative and coercive because he wants to justify his bad actions and bring Rey around to his side. (It's what dear old granddad and his mentor tried to do to Luke, after all, and no one would dispute that they were manipulative, coercive, and abusive...) This is a learned behavior from Snoke (and others?) that has probably become almost instinctual, such that he does not necessarily need "sufficient focus to plot, manipulate, coerce, beguile, whatever." Accordingly, I would also suggest that Ren does not see his own actions toward Rey as abusive and he could even be apologetic. Which is pretty typical of people who are abusive toward others.

Deep down, however, I think most people recognize right from wrong. There are those who will justify the bad things they do as being part of some "necessary evil" or something that is for the collective good. On one level, that is how I see Kylo Ren. He is conflicted because he knows, deep down some where, that many of the things he does are not right, but he believes in his overall cause, whatever that may be revealed to be. On another separate, more personal level, I think he is also conflicted when he breaks down on the bridge before his father for other reasons. He has a desire to be accepted, to belong, and to have his place in the galaxy. To be in control of himself. One version of his fate is being offered to him, but the reveal of why exactly he rejects it is probably still to come. With regard to Ren begging his grandfather for help, he is asking Vader to extinguish the light and show him the dark. I would suggest this actually is the side of Ren that is a narcissistic creep who thinks the galaxy should submit to him.

Anyway, I think your perception of Ren is certainly how he sees himself. Meanwhile, I think my perception of him (at least as presented above) is closer to how the galaxy at large sees (or will see) him. Just food for thought.

But overall, Kylo Ren is all of these things and all of these perceptions we the audience have brought to this discussion. A truly complex villain, the likes of which I'm not sure we have ever seen.

 

i'm just going to throw this out there like a tin can to kick around the playing field:

in the film, we don't have a clear impetus for him to proposition Rey. maybe it's because Snoke told him to fetch her and she he's trying to convince her (in a lousy manipulative fashion) to come back with him. the novel gives us a different way to interpret this moment. Snoke's imperative in the book is not to bring Rey back because he's interested in Rey--he wants Ren to bring Rey back so he can punish Ren.

so i propose that Ren's offer to Rey is not slimy and manipulative, it's matter of preservation for both of them. if he can come back to Snoke and say: hey look, she wants to be an apprentice too, then maybe Snoke won't kill her (or make Ren do it).

whatever his brainwashing or corruption, Ren is a thinking person. he's not Machiavellian, but he does have a very strong sense of self-preservation--everything he does is about trying to alleviate his own suffering. wanting Rey is part of that. protecting Rey is part of that. doesn't necessarily make it less selfish at this point (does this kid even know how to share, Leia?). but again, the motives do not appear to be intrinsically Dark.

of course this is absolutely true. i absolutely look at the character as he sees himself. i empathize with him because he doesn't accept yet that he's so so so wrong. we all know he's wrong. for me the greater question is how do we take that one glimmer of self-awareness he had on the bridge and build on it in a meaningful way? how do our heroes make him see (and do) what's right?

 

This is an astute observation about what motivates Ren. And the reality is, we don't entirely know yet. Perhaps as you suggest he propositions Rey as a means of self-preservation against Snoke. (I personally doubt it is to protect her, as at that moment, she is getting the upper hand and he is about to lose. Badly.)

But here is another suggestion for his motivation, and one that I personally prefer: He sees her as a potential ally who (he) can (manipulate and coerce to) help him usurp power from Snoke. Granted, this goes along with my preferred "Riddick as Reluctant King of the Necromongers" scenario. But the point is, we don't really know yet what Kylo Ren's true motivation is, what it is he thinks he will finish that Vader started, and how far he will spiral down before he might be redeemed. My guess is, we have only seen the start of his descent (through his abuse of Rey and others ), and he will have a long way to go before he begins his ascension from the depths of darkness. He may not yet be intrinsically dark, but I think he will be... especially after Snoke fully "trains" him (see, e.g., torture) and shows him the dark side.

THAT is the ultimate question and the seeds have definitely been planted. This leads into an interesting point that has been discussed here ad nauseum, but let me see if I can put a slightly different spin on it.

I have said many times that Kylo Ren is the fall-from-grace story that Anakin and Vader should have been. We didn't really see any of this kind of believable, relatable conflict in Anakin (and Vader). I'd like to think that TPTB are actively trying to right that wrong from Vader's legacy, so to speak. Yet because we have already seen his redemption, almost no one argues that Vader was not worthy of it (at least before multiple viewings of the PT ). But we still struggle to embrace that Kylo Ren is similarly worthy. My argument (and hope) is that precisely because we have been given (and already shown) such a complex, conflicted, fascinating villain in Kylo Ren, we will all eventually be able to embrace his redemption, even though it seems so difficult (for some) now (due to the whole patricide thing...), in a way that we didn't even for Vader.

(Upon further review, I like parentheses. )

 

a very good analyse, especially about the different perspectives people see him portrays how he sees himself (thinking he is doing the right thing) and how people see him objectively outside in the galaxy (as the abuser and monster).

 

Fair enough. If you want an idea of what specific story cues and plot beats in TFA film/story might have people noticing compassion in Kylo and seeing a possible trajectory to embracing the light, a running catalogue of potential evidence is being collected in the post Rendemption - Evidence For & Against A Return To Light.

 

i don't think he sees the fight for what it is (he's too crazed in the moment). and actually, he's winning at the moment--he's pushed her back to the cliff and got her pinned. i kinda do see him protecting her, because i think he recognizes (even now) that she is a bit of a life raft in stormy waters, incongruous as it may seem under the circumstances.

i think the "usurp" Snoke thing is still too premature. he still trusts Snoke, believes he is "the way". is towing the "Supreme Leader is wise" line like a stepford dog. i feel like his ambition is clear(er) in the novel: that his destiny is to order the galaxy (such as it was Darth Vader's). but you're right: everything is still pretty ambiguous and it could still go a number of ways. for the moment, though, i don't see him plotting against Snoke. Snoke hasn't crossed that line with him...yet.

who is this "we" pale face? hahahah

this is my hope too: that we can sit here, gnashing our teeth and rending our garments, and prattling justice and mercy, and all the rest of it, but that ultimately whatever happens in the story we will all be rooting for it--or cheering it on when it happens. because they will have convinced us of the necessity of the outcome.

parenthetically speaking, of course. it would appear i do the same thing! ~ hahaha

 

You are right of course, about the timing of his proposition. Did he at that point at least recognize her as a worthy opponent? He had already acknowledged that she was beginning to discover her power in the Force, which I suspect he had not really encountered in anyone else before, except in Luke and Snoke.

I think (hope?) that his belief in Snoke is limited to what he himself can gain from the relationship and Snoke's tutelage. He seems to already know what his father tells him, that Snoke will crush him once he is finished using him. But don't you think that Ren sees himself (alone) as the rightful heir to Darth Vader's legacy and call? Ren clearly walks his own path and is not beholden to what Snoke wants or suggests at all times. I think Ren is similarly using Snoke until such time as he has extracted the wisdom he thinks he needs... and then he will try to overthrow his master. Just as Vader plotted against Sidious (as we have learned in the comics).

For the record, I am 1/8 Cherokee. So I am no pale face! ("We" natives appear to both believe in Ren's eventual redemption...)

Bravo. Others have stock of the Alderaanian wine, Corellian whiskey, and the ... who makes the beer in this galaxy, anyway? But if they are tending the Cantina bar, I'll gladly buy you a shot, a pint, and a carafe.

()

 

true. even if Luke had other pupils, it's doubtful they could have compared--Snoke tells us Ren is particularly special (and he must be for Snoke to keep him). i think there's a prophecy or a Force vision swimming around out there that Snoke and Luke are privy to and no one else.

it will be interesting to find out just how sithy-inclined Ren is (and if this behavior is something he is internalizing whether consciously or not). i don't think we have enough information about the KoR or about his actual relationship with Snoke, so there is maybe much yet to be revealed in this area. and maybe i think he's too much of a naif and he really is more clever than i give him credit. he just doesn't seem very capable of hiding his agendas at this point.

no offense intended ~ i am a mutt myself of many colors.

i think Lothal must make beer. something about the name just sounds drunk and slovenly. hahaha

regardless, cheers!