Darth Plagueis In The Sequel Trilogy.

Oh no. I feel it again. The pull to Plagueis.

 

-Same injuries.
-Looks like cheated death.
-Described as wise and having vast knowledge of the Dark aside.
-Intimate Skywalker knowledge.
-Has apprentice kill his father.
-Wanted to build a Star system destroying weapon.
-Same soundtrack.
-Used to have an apprentice.
-Wants destruction of Jedi.
-Tineline fits in with Snoke (why would a powerful dark sider not try to take over the galaxy? (Plagueis' injuries ruled him out until his rivals demise).
-Directly connected to Vader's legacy which this saga is about.
-Denied by Pablo but then he said he would only deny that which has already been revealed in canon.
-Plagueis, a powerful Sith, killed in his sleep? Hmmm.
-Plagueis novel decanonised but then Plagueis is in Tarkin but his species mysteriously omitted.
-Snoke talks about crafting individuals. Plagueis potentially the creator of Anakin.

F*ck it. I'm back on the Plagueis train and going all in...

 

It would be a travesty to ignore the backstory on Plagueis. It is a perfect fit, seriously connects the past to the present Star Wars. They are lucky Lucas put that stuff in there. It will be pathetic if Snoke is just some scrub hiding in the outer rim.

 

Welcome to the Plagueis fan club...

... (AGAIN!)

As a valuable return customer, you're entitled to a free Plagueis toy and a free t-shirt!

 

Come on. This theory is too cool not to be true.

 

This was in response to the woody harleson interview. But it confirmed what I suspected







Kasdan had no clue who/what Plagueis is when asked that question at comic con, and JJ was covering for the awkward response.

 

I totally see your reasoning, and I'm completely up for the idea of Snoke being Plagueis but personally I see him appearing in an anthology rather than part of the main episodes. I'd just like to give him his own film to flesh out a fascinating character rather than have him as just the big bad.

 

Before TFA, before the rewrites, back when GL's ST treatment was part of the Disney deal... I strongly believed Plagueis would become the new bad guy head honcho.

But since seeing TFA, I strongly believe Disney are doing their own thing.

 

Hello all! I have been following this thread for a few years now and am impressed by the creativity and nuance with which many of you approach the idea that Plagueis = Snoke. This is especially fascinating to observe given that @PabloHidalgo said that Plagueis is dead and/or Snoke is not Plagueis. With that being said, I don't think Pablo would spoil the movie outright, so if we are correct he would never confirm that Plagueis = Snoke. On that premise alone, I want to summarize the evidence presented so far on this thread and introduce some of my own in support of the idea that Snoke is from "a certain point of view", Plagueis. I will likely miss or butcher some of the subtleties of many of the arguments presented so please call me out if I do.

What we know about Darth Plagueis from Canon Sources

1. Darth Plagueis was Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine's master - this is implied in Revenge of the Sith and outright confirmed in the canon novel Tarkin. Provided that Hego Damask, the real name of Darth Plagueis in the Darth Plagueis novel is no longer canon, the real canonical name of the Sith Lord Plagueis is not known. Also, thanks to the animated series The Clone Wars and Rebels, we know that Darth Maul relinquished his Sith mantle and went by the name Maul in the years after his "death" at the hands of Kenobi, so there is precedent to discard the Darth mantle.

2. Darth Plagueis was "killed" by Palpatine in his sleep (Revenge of the Sith). The Tarkin novel does not discuss or canonize any element of his death. However, Palpatine muses about what Plagueis would think if presented with the challenges of ruling the Empire, and imagines, as might someone who lost a loved one, how Plagueis would react to the challenges of governing. Palpatine imagines that Plagueis would mock him for being mired in the quotidian dramas of politics rather than focusing his energies on matters of the Force. We also learn that Palpatine "inherited" his former master's droid 114-D (canonizing the droid from the Plagueis novel), implying again that he is deceased.

3. In Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine suggests that Plagueis achieved mastery of the midi-chlorians to create life and prevent death. In Tarkin, Palpatine reaffirms that the ultimate goal for Plagueis was achieving immortality, while his own goal was to irrevocably influence the fabric of the universe towards the dark side of the Force. Tarkin also canonizes the idea that the force can "strike back", though the implications are unclear. In the now defunct Darth Plagueis novel, the unnatural manipulation of the midi-chlorians on the part of Plagueis is implied to have resulted in an equal and opposite reaction by the Force; the force "strikes back" as Plagueis feared it would and is implied to create Anakin Skywalker as a kind of immune system response to a "plague". This idea, however, is not made canon in Tarkin. For all we know, the Force striking back refers to the redemption of Anakin, even if Plagueis was indeed the one who brought him into being.

4. In Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine says to freshly anointed Sith Lord Vader that "to cheat death is a power only one has achieved...but if we work together we can discover its secret". This contradicts Palpatine's earlier decree that "[Plagueis] taught his apprentice everything he knew" but interestingly, also supports it, if you take into account the line he says in the opera house, "he could save others from death, but not himself". Whatever the implications are, we know that Palpatine's inconsistencies reveal that he is lying, and so the truth is a mystery. Someone pointed out that Yoda says in Return of the Jedi that "strong am I with the force, but not strong", when Luke says "you can't die". None of this evidence is conclusive in anyway - however it does raise the possibility that someone - known by Sith and Jedi alike - was able to "cheat death" or that such a power is known to be possible through the force.

5. In Aftermath, the Acolytes of the Beyond mention the ability of Sith Lords to drain the energy of living things to prolong their lives. This could be a canonized mechanism through which Plagueis "kept the ones he cared about from dying" or transferred life forces. Some say that Vader died at the end of Revenge of the Sith, and that Palpatine transferred Padme's lifeforce to him to keep him alive and is, in effect, responsible for her death. The droid says "for reasons we can't explain...we're losing her". Since droids cannot sense the force, this theory has some plausibility.

6. The species of the canon version of Darth Plagueis is not specified. He could be a human or an alien. Similarly, the species of Snoke is unclear, though The Force Awakens novel refers to him as a "humanoid", which could imply he is alien or some kind of altered human. Some have said Plagueis isn't Snoke because Snoke isn't a Muun - Plagueis being a Muun is no longer canon.


Why Snoke is Plagueis - According to this Thread

1. SOUNDTRACK: While watching The Force Awakens for the first time, I was elated to hear the theme "Snoke" because it instantly reminded me of the music from the opera house scene in Revenge of the Sith.

Evidence For:
Careful analysis on the part of music-savvy fans reveals that the themes "Snoke" and "Palpatine's Teachings" are nearly identical variations of one another. John Williams is known for brilliant literary foreshadowing in his scores using recurring leitmotifs and thematic elements to signal plot points.

Evidence Against:
Although Plagueis is discussed in the opera house, it could be interpreted that the score is a theme that refers to the Sith more broadly, hence its difference from Palpatine's, Vader's or Maul's Themes. So even if the scores are identical, Williams may have been attempting to score a theme for Sith generally.

2. APPEARANCE: Fans point to the similarities in the appearance of the Plagueis described in the now defunct Darth Plagueis novel and Snoke.

Evidence For:
Due to changes to the canon, the species of both Snoke and Plagueis are unclear and unspecified. The scars and tissue damage on Snoke suggest that he endured immense physical trauma and may have been killed or nearly killed (by Palpatine allegedly). His pale complexion and attire are evocative of a vampire or zombie - suggesting that he is immortal, ancient or is unnatural in some capacity. While these qualities could easily be bestowed to a brand new character, the similarities to Plagueis are significant. If Disney wanted to create an entirely different character, why draw on so many similarities or, alternatively, why make a character who does in some ways, resemble the scarred, decrepit Palpatine?

Evidence Against:
Although the appearance of Snoke would fit a Plagueis who survived an assassination attempt or was resurrected, the appearance alone is far from conclusive. At some point in the production process, the writers considered making Snoke female, which some say rules out that Snoke=Plagueis, since his gender is canonized in the films and novels. With that being said, the writers sought to differentiate Snoke from Palpatine, but ultimately voted to create another old man character. None of this is conclusive or definitive, so I will move on.

3. FORCE AWAKENS REFERENCES: Kylo Ren tells General Hux that the Supreme Leader should have considered a clone army. Kylo Ren tells Han Solo that the Supreme Leader is "Wise".

Evidence For: In Palpatine's "old sith legend", Darth Plagueis goes by the epithet "The Wise". In the decanonized Darth Plagueis novel, Plagueis is the one behind the funding of the Kaminoan Clone Army.

Evidence Against: One could easily dismiss the "wise" comment as something that anyone would say of an old mentor. Regarding the Clone Army reference, it is clear that Ben and General Hux are aware of galactic history and could have been referring to why the First Order chose behavioral conditioning over cloning. Put simply, it is a reference to the prequels and to a history that these characters could have been aware of without connecting it to Plagueis.

4. SNOKE = GALLIUS RAX / OPERATOR*: The post-ROTJ Aftermath novel trilogy by Chuck Wendig, introduces a tactical mastermind character called the Operator, who is later revealed to be Gallius Rax, a former protege of Palpatine himself.

Evidence For:
The leap from Fleet Commander to "Supreme Leader" is certainly not implausible, nor is it difficult to imagine Snoke as a secret apprentice of Sidious. It is possible that Gallius, a Jakku orphan who met Palpatine as a child, could have been force sensitive and could have been trained by Sidious in the ways of the dark side. The next book in the trilogy, Empire's End, arrives later this month and will answer if Gallius=Snoke. It is important to note that Gallius claims to have knowledge of Palpatine's final, post-humous plan for the Empire and that the battle of Jakku is a culmination of that plan. The Aftermath series also suggests that Palpatine had sent Dark Side adepts to the far reaches of space in search of the source of Dark Side power. Finally, Palpatine informs Gallius that something is buried on Jakku that was "important one thousand years ago and will be important again in the future" in shaping the destiny of the galaxy. Whatever is being protected and excavated on Jakku may be the key to understanding who Snoke is and what his motives are.

*Personal Take on This: Plagueis is said to have been "killed in his sleep" by Palpatine. It is possible that "sleep" may be metaphorical or true "from a certain point of view". Perhaps Plagueis is interred on Jakku. Perhaps the two were trying to gain access to a Sith artifact of some kind on Jakku and just as Plagueis betrays Tenebrous in the cave in the decanonized Darth Plagueis novel, Sidious betrays Plagueis and traps him in the tomb in some kind of state of suspended animation/carbonite. Another take on the theory is that the thing that was buried is some kind of Sith ship and Sidious managed to deceive Plagueis into going into hypersleep and never woke him. Alternatively, Plagueis was killed and managed to resurrect himself with the aid of whatever is buried on Jakku, a process that might take many years (explaining his absence from the OT era).

Evidence Against: Some have sensibly argued that Snoke's identity will not be revealed off-screen in novels, even if they are canon. The Snoke=Gallius theory is also being rejected on the basis that Gallius Rax is unknown to the audience and requires too much backstory to introduce in a film (though it is still possible). The reveal, in other words, would fall short without stakes set up in advance. The same can be said for Plagueis, barring the fact that the character was mentioned in ROTS and could be retconned in simply by saying that he was the "Emperor's master".

My thoughts on why Snoke=Plagueis:
While this thread has seemingly exhausted all the possible canon material where Plagueis is referenced, there are a few lines of dialogue in Revenge of the Sith that I find intriguing as a possible link to Plagueis/Snoke that I have not seen explored so far - I could have missed it so please correct me and credit whomever might have also discovered this.

When Anakin approaches Palpatine to reveal that Kenobi has engaged General Grievous, Palpatine seizes the opportunity to reveal that he is in fact Darth Sidious, the "Sith lord they have been looking for". While this scene is straightforward and masterfully executed as "the beginning of the end" for Anakin, it also contains some rather interesting references that could point to Plagueis rather than mere seduction of Anakin:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dATuq8O3920" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Palpatine: "Let me help you to know the subtleties of the Force"
Anakin: "How do you know the ways of the Force?"
Palpatine: "My mentor taught me everything about the force...even the nature of the dark side"
Anakin: "You know the dark side?"
Palpatine: "Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects - not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the force. Be careful of the Jedi, Anakin. Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the force and you will be able to save your wife from certain death."​

While the areas I highlight could be written off as careful wording to ease Anakin into embracing the dark side as a legitimate source of power, there is an interesting implication that is made; Palpatine had Maul, a Sith weapon bred from birth to embrace only the dark side. In the end, he preferred a fallen Jedi for his next two apprentices (Dooku and Vader). There is something to be said about this business of mixing the knowledge of the light with the dark. It is possible that Plagueis was a Jedi before becoming a Sith Lord. Interestingly, the only person who speaks about this mixing in the saga is Snoke to Kylo Ren.

"It is where you are from. What you are made of. The Dark Side - and the Light....The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work." - Supreme Leader Snoke
​

I am wondering what folks on this thread make of this connection? Is this too far a stretch? Also, a recent example of the Gray Side of the Force is the Bendu character in Rebels, who navigates between light and dark. Finally, how does this business of "balancing the force" fit into all of this? I foresee the Sequel Trilogy ending with a new order of force users that are "gray," and similarly I foresee the ending to involve a truce or peace pact of sorts between the New Republic and the First Order, followed by the dissolution of the Jedi and Sith orders. Thoughts?

 

Observing us from the shadows, appearing out of nowhere, no sign of past existence... Does your name happen to be Snoke by any chance?

Great first post and welcome to the thread and the Cantina.

And don't worry, your secret is safe with me...

On the question you proposed about Snoke, this is just my interpretation...

I don't buy the "gray" angle with Snoke one bit, nor do I buy that Plagueis was once a Jedi.

Kylo is a dark side warrior, determined to remove any sign of Light within himself.

"I am immune to the light,” Ren assured him confidently. “By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced.”​

Snoke is training Kylo so he won't be seduced by the Light (unlike Vader was). Snoke detects Kylo's compassion (a key component of the Light side) as his weakness.

The Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her”

“No–never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.​

As a result, Kylo is actually quite in fear of Snoke and will do basically anything (apart from kill Rey, Kylo's kyptonite) to prove he is immune to the Light.

"Forgive me. I feel it again. The pull to the light. Supreme Leader senses it. Show me again, the power of the darkness, and I will let nothing stand in our way. Show me, Grandfather, and I will finish what you started."​

To reference the original Snoke passage you mentioned:

"It is where you are from. What you are made of. The Dark Side - and the Light"​

"The Dark side and the Light side" = the Force.

You can't talk about the Skywalkers in terms of only Dark or only Light. The Skywalkers encompass both sides of the Force. They are the most naturally gifted, most pure, most strong, Force family that the galaxy has ever witnessed. Therefore, for me, Snoke is talking about Kylo's heritage and origins. "Where you are from. What you are made of". In other words, the great Skywalker lineage. It runs through Kylo's veins - the dark side (Vader) and the light (Anakin, Luke, Leia).

“[Snoke] knew our child would be strong with the Force. That he was born with equal potential for good or evil”

…

“So Snoke was watching our son.”​

“Always,” she told him “From the shadows, in the beginning, even before I realized what was happening, he was manipulating everything, pulling our son to the dark side.”​

The only reason why Snoke wanted Kylo - the reason why he has been watching Kylo from the beginning - is because Snoke knew he was the bloodline descendant of the Skywalker family. He knew they are a source of great power. Snoke's plan is to exploit the Skywalker's power for his own selfish ways by manipulating Ben to the dark side. It has nothing to do with the Snoke wanting the "gray". Once Snoke gets what he wants from Kylo (the destruction of Luke and the Jedi), he'll crush him.

But referencing the original Snoke quote once more, when viewed in a greater context, it becomes even more interesting to me...

When next Snoke spoke there was an intimacy in his voice, a familiarity that stood in sharp contrast to the commanding tone he had used with Hux.
“I have never had a student with such promise – before you.”
Ren straightened. “It is your teachings that make me strong, Supreme Leader.”
Snoke demurred. “It is far more than that. It is where you are from. What you are made of. The dark side – and the light. The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work. I have – you.” He paused, reminiscing. ​

Firstly, Snoke downplays the effect his own teachings have had on the strength Kylo has with the Force, instead pointing out that Kylo was born with great power. The Skywalker power. Snoke then directly compares himself to a sculptor and Kylo as his "materials" (basically an object). Like Kylo is a constructed Force being. Finally, Snoke pauses reminiscing about Kylo's past/orgins. However, this is a bit weird considering Snoke just downplayed the effect of his own teachings. So what if in actual fact the reason why Snoke is proud of his past in relation to Kylo is because Snoke is directly connected to Kylo's origins i.e. the Skywalkers great Force power i.e. Darth Plagueis. But then that would make just way too much sense...

 

I'm confused. Can you explain what that means to an ignorant guy like myself?

 

Just a joke

Have you seen "the Burbs"? I don't want to spoil the ending, so I can't really explain it. It's a funny film, check it out if you have the chance.
Basically, the three come up with a conspiracy theory about their new neighbors and try to prove that they are murderers.

I'm just seeing a lot of parallels

 

Wouldn't toss and obj-wan at least feel SOMETHING if padme's midichlorians were being drained to save anakin? And also wouldn't anakin feel it too so as to not ask "is padme safe?

 

Assuming that's what happened, maybe they just saw it as her dying? Midi-chloreans die when the host dies, if I'm remembering correctly. (Too lazy to fact check, but I'm 90% sure of it.)

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 3, 2017 ---

And maybe that's why Anakin was confused when he woke up as Darth Vader? Because he could sense Padme just a bit before, and suddenly she was gone? Not sure if I support the life-drain theory, but that's one way to look at it.

 

Dude, first off, welcome to the Cantina!

Second, I was just thinking of this yesterday! How Palpatine saying one must study all of the Force mirrors perfectly with Snoke's interest in the dark and light sides. "Wise leader"? "The Supreme Leader is wise?" I don't know if Lucasfilm made the connection intentionally, but it does point to Plagueis, doesn't it?

 

im just saying...if all her midichlorians were drained, she would be a pile of nothing.

 

In an excerpt from "The Force Awakens" novel it states that Snoke witnessed the rise and fall of the Empire, indicating he could have been in the background incognito until he saw his time to rise again to power. Plageius was the one who helped the Empire rise when he mentored Palpatine to become involved with the senate and eventually Supreme Chancellor and then of course the Emporor. Of course at some point in time Palpatine admitted to Plageius before he "killed" him that he was putting ideas into Plageius making him believe he came up with them. So it's hard to say at what point in time this happened.

 

#PlagueisConfirmed

 

Doctor Who is Plagueis, who is Snoke confirmed?

Who's bookshelf is this? (pun intended )