I Can't Believe I'm Asking This, But is Rey a "Mary Sue"?

Supposedly the term is SO outdated and offensive it is banned from mention on a certain forum.

 

Wrong. My statement was just a fact, something you even admitted yourself when mentioning sci-fi being a male-dominated field. You on the other hand are turning it into a "gender war" by repeatedly saying stuff like "A woman were to first one to do that, not a man". That's a difference, that if anything is trying to make one gender look better than the other - something I didn't do, the only thing I'm saying is that men and women generally have different interests. And besides, not to disappoint you or anything, but there are many differing views on what historically counts as science-fiction. If you look back at Lucian's work A True Story from 2nd Century AD, he is writing about extraterrestial life and travelling to space. Nevertheless, there is no general consensus regarding who "invented" science-fiction, rather is it a combined work of many, both men and women - but mostly men. It's not controversial to admit this.

Yes, that's true, but I was mostly discussing about George Lucas and the creation of Star Wars with the other poster.

Sure. Definitely. But I think children, especially, really don't care what race or gender their favorite characters have. Children are much smarter than adults in this sense.

But that's exactly what I said. I said that Rey being a female character in a sci-fi film is not groundbreaking. I also said that it doesn't change the popularity of the franchise, because most of the fans don't care what gender the main character has. The only thing I disagreed with you about was that you would rather compare Rey to someone like Snow White than Luke. In that sense, Luke would be a princess too, right?

 

And this is where we part ways. I believe it absolutely matters. With projects like ‘Forces of Destiny’, Star Wars is making it clear they want to expand their fandom beyond their existing base. Casting a female lead benefits that goal. It puts new eyes on the brand that weren’t there before. You can argue effectiveness and practicality - that the strategy won’t succeed. But to flat out say it’s a nonfactor to the studio is relatively naïve in my observation.

 

I think "Forces of Destiny" is definitely a way of targeting girls with its animated characters looking like something straight out of a Barbie coloring book or Winx, but we were talking about the movies. Even though Rey is the main lead in the ST, Forces of Destiny is centered around ALL of the main female characters in Star Wars. That being said, while Rey is certainly popular, the TV show could've been made without Rey.

 

It’s the position I find naïve: that deliberately making the face of your brand a female had nothing to do with recruiting more females. Not you, as a person, who I don’t know. I'm sorry I worded that poorly.

What was the topic of this thread again? Oh yeah.

Do I think she’s a ‘Mary Sue’? In the strictest sense, yes. I believe that’s how the character originated. As an avatar for the fandom to project themselves onto by personifying the ideal Star Wars hero. She’s Han, Luke, and Leia all rolled into one. She’s tailor made to be the sort of character you’d want to be if you could exist in this world.

She’s crafty and handy, compassionate yet strong-willed and heroic. She’s a pilot and a force user and has a mysterious destiny. She has everything this franchise prizes as valuable and she’s instantly beloved by the established and revered heroes. Han offers her a job; Leia literally embraces her; Chewie accepts her as the Falcon’s pilot; Luke (we expect) takes her as his apprentice. Even the lightsaber and the Force itself is rooting for her in this movie.

Her only personal failing we can see is the irrational desire to return to a miserable place in a misguided hope of reuniting with her family. A flawed, yet honorable, shortcoming.

I do, however, feel the character is far more than the sum of those parts. I believe she’s transcended the trappings of that trope. She has, on-screen, become a textured and compelling personality. Largely thanks to Daisy Ridley’s impeccable portrayal. I very much like Rey and I’m glad it’s her journey we’re on for this trilogy. I do believe she began as a ‘Sue’, but I don’t think that makes her a lesser character. The exact opposite. I think she’s much richer for it by defying the limitations that would have crippled a poorer execution.

I’m something of a dunce though. So what do I know?

 

Generally speaking, I think this is an utterly horrendous foundation for a character irrespective of gender.

Which she completely drops.

Several points have to be made here:

1. I didn't think Daisy Ridley's performance was all that great. In fact, I was more interested in her character in the very beginning and the interest gradually began to drop as the film went on. I'm not about to judge her ability solely on this film but she's still a comparatively inexperienced actor to a lot of others and there is nothing she could have done to save how underwritten her character was. Honestly, Finn was the character I was excited for due to not having one like him appear in a Star Wars film but he was ultimately squandered so that the glorified piece of white bread that is Rey could be the protagonist.

2. When a character is a Mary Sue, the character is not compelling by definition because there is no real failure. No actual conflict. At least not any long-lasting and/or deeply internal conflict. Besides, even if she was constructed in this fashion to bring more female fans into the genre, it's a pretty shitty way of doing it and one that ultimately has a short shelf life. I mean, think about how people will look back at this film decades from now and most likely view it as utterly redundant because of all the things previously mentioned.

 

TLJ will define Rey's character. I used to see Rey as a bit of a 'mary Sue' however I have since been convinced otherwise. Her character will be properly fleshed out and hopefully the questions regarding her affinity with the force will be thoroughly explained. Which should dispel any notions of 'mary sue-ness'.

I don't think Disney/LFL are naive enough that they think we will accept her abilities 'just because'. They will go deeper than that.

 

Unfortunately almost all "leaks" we have so far are indicating that she is in fact "Rey Random". I didn't want to admit Rey was a Mary Sue at first, and then when I did come to the almost unavoidable conclusion she is, I hoped there would be a reason presented like she was the actual chosen one or something. It looks like nope she is just a super overpowered random person. Now I am trying to avoid the social / political implications for what this means but lets just summarize what we know about Rey:

- She can speak Shyriwook, droid, the language of the alien that tries to capture BB8, and basic (perhaps more?).
- She is a mechanical genius who can repair the Falc better than Han Solo, AND knew how to disable the doors at star killer base with no logical reason for her to be able to do so.
- She is able to fight multiple attackers off with a bo-staff without any explanation for her advanced combat training apart from "rough upbringing".
- She is able to out-fly multiple tie fighter pilots in the millennium falcon, despite no explanation being given for her advanced piloting skills.
- everyone who meets her seems to love her immediately, in fact Leia ignores chewbacca- her husbands long time best friend and confidant- after Hans death in order to go hug her and acknowledge how special she is. Then she is simply GIVEN the Falc despite the fact Leia doesn't know who the fheck she is apart from Finns friend. Not to mention Han knowing her for a hand full of minutes and offering her a job aboard his ship.
- Maz Kanata tells her that Anakins light saber "calls out to you" despite no apparent connection to the weapon (and if rumors are true absolutely no connection what so ever).
- She is able to resist, and then flip, the mind probing powers of Kylo Ren, a strong force user who is trained by both Snoke AND Luke Skywalker.
- She literally develops the ability to do mind tricks with absolutely no instruction or training.
- Kylo, for some unknown reason states "every moment she is free she grows more powerful." - Remember that to Kylo, at this point, she is a random force sensitive junker.
- She is able to force pull Anakins saber away from Kylo Ren, again a powerful force user with training from two far more powerful force users.
- She is able to then beat a trained light saber combatant with absolutely no sword fighting training.

So it seems to me she is a walking Deus Ex Machina. Whenever something is needed to help the writer out of a jam POOF dont worry Rey has it covered!! Honestly there is really no doubt about it. She is a Mary Sue. You can not like the word for its somewhat offensive connotation, but in the sense it is describing an extremely over powered character who exists without any of the character growth being shown to have the required traits, it is an absolutely and unquestionably accurate description of the nature of her character.

 

Rey is the nuance of a British woman who saves others being the definition of spirituality; so while Rey can technically be called a Mary Sue, at the same time Rey is a magnificent creation, who embodies a very inspiring degree of art

 

From what we see in TFA - I think definitely. She had no learning curve - just straight up perfect from the start.

 

Honestly, I thought the way Abrams portrayed her was sue-ish (Suddenly learning how to fly the falcon, using Jedi mind tricks despite not knowing of their existence earlier that same day, etc.), and I feel like Johnson was better about it. However, it's less of an issue on Rey's part, and more that Abrams' wrote pretty much all of the new protagonists like that. Finn suddenly knows lightsaber combat? What? How does Poe survive the Tie Fighter crash? The entire battle on the Starkiller Base with Finn and Rey is nonsensical, considering the lack of training they have. You may argue that Rey uses a staff, but that staff is two-handed weapon, while the lightsaber she uses is clearly one-handed. If it were done with a two-sided lightsaber like Darth Maul, then it would make more sense.

 

I Think She Is, But I Really Don’t Have A Problem With It

 

Obviously. She's even more powerful than the Chosen One.

 

Is she a Mary Sue?? I'm not 'exactly' sure what that is, exactly, so I won't specify there. I will say that I am not entirely satisfied with her character arc, and feel it to be not the most believable in the Star Wars universe..

 

No.

 

Sue-ish but not a complete Mary Sue. She does have some flaws and weaknesses and makes some decisions that aren't perfect...the problem lies in the execution of those moments.

Note: I loved the set-up of Rey when we were introduced to her on Jakku. I liked seeing her struggle as a scavenger and the window into her lonely life (making the bread, wearing the pilot helmet.) I was starting to really take to the character, but then she became too powerful , too good-at-everything, and her flaws were there, but not fleshed out enough. It's understandable why she would be a good mechanic and fighter, but when she knew more about the MF than Han, it felt forced. Yes, it is okay if sometimes a guy can do something better than a girl. She would still be a strong female character.

Yeah, Luke starts out multi-talented but the origins of his powers/abilities are explained and he is by no means perfect (impulsive, whiner, somewhat bratty, over confident) and gets his behind handed to him a couple times.

I am hoping to see more of her conflict and flaws in Ep. 9. Daisy is great and the character has a neat set-up and potential. She deserves more development, challenges, and a real sense of the flaws she struggles with. Nothing subtle, the struggle should not need to be argued over ...make it blatant and obvious. You can't dispute Luke's failure and struggle in ESB. We saw the intense drama during the climax and a good sense of him during the aftermath (he was beaten emotionally and physically, lost his hand ,etc.) Luke's dramatic actions and consequences at the end of ESB marked a big change in his character. Rey walked away from the end of TLJ relatively unscathed and we just weren't given enough time with her to see the emotional struggle of the revelations/the aftermath of befriending Kylo.

 

Just wait until episode 9 and she lifts TWO piles of rocks and things really get dicey