Ignoring the Star Wars haters

That's a pretty big paint brush wiped over a lot of fans to gloss over and dismiss their criticism. Well done.

I absolutely hated TLJ. That said never would I even contemplate threatening anyone who had anything to do with the film (or who enjoyed it). That's just stupid. If those are the haters you are referring to, I'm all for it. Honestly, those people really need to get a life.

Then there are those people who hated the movie and don't want to see it again (might not have interest to watch 9, has lost some mojo on the SW universe as a whole... heck, even those who say they're done with SW... no one has to love what you love). They come here and vent because venting to your 80 yo grandmother or your wife, or cornering your parish priest in the confessional so he can't run away, (or anyone who doesn't like SW or has any real interest in the SW universe) or anyone who never watched the movies is pretty pointless. We're here to see if it's us or if the issues we see bugged others too (then yes, we want to go into details of the movie, just as those who like it want to go into details of what they liked). Do you know why we do that? Because we love SW, have loved SW and want to keep loving SW. That TLJ didn't meet our expectations in quality frustrates us and has us worried we won't get our needs met moving forward, our SW fix so to speak.

Yes, you might say what we want isn't SW and never was. I say there are a lot of different ways they can make SW, it's bigger than GL's original vision. They'll probably never be able to please everyone, but I hope over 10 movies all fans can say they like 6 or 7 of them at least. The reaction is an emotional one, so it is not entirely under our control. We see and in the moment we can or can't suspend our disbelief. If we feel we're constantly being pulled out of the experience, then the experience probably isn't enjoyable. We pay good money to go see these movies at theaters, buy these toys and add these movies to our collection. I don't think it is asking too much to expect to enjoy the product being delivered.

All that being said, I agree with an earlier post that people should try to keep an open mind. Dealing in absolutes rarely steers you to happiness or the truth. That being said, it's a two way street. I'm not saying you should not like the movie because I don't, but if you're taking the time to read my post, actually read my post and don't add stuff I did not say (and please don't paint everyone with the same brush). I have an issue with Rey, that doesn't mean I hate women. If Rey were Ray I'd have an issue with his learning curb too and lack of training too (and lack of exposition to explain it). That said I am trying to read and understand what others are experiencing and in some ways it's making some sense, but have no doubt that I'm still struggling to be at peace with TLJ and now the whole of the ST.

Some people hate it so much they've sworn off of SW. I've heard a lot of people say good riddance. I don't and wouldn't if I liked this movie and you didn't. I think it's sad. This story takes us back to our childhood, these characters mean something to us, almost like extended family (that funny uncle we see around the holidays, or that crazy aunt that we think is hilarious or really cool), some might even remind us of people we know or knew. I hate the idea that anyone gets tossed out of the SW community (and are treated with disdain) and hope we can all at least try and understand each other on both sides of the issue, even if we disagree.

People have crossed the line on both sides. Taking things personal, being overly defensive or critical, or just making assumptions (or generalizations) that are flat out untrue. By all means, if you have nothing nice or constructive to say, don't respond. Often our griping is not intended to fan your flames, but to simply to see if others share our thoughts and feelings. We're not attacking you or your love of the film, in truth, most of us "haters" envy that you have another SW movie to enjoy and we don't (can't, won't) or are struggling to suspend our disbelief.

 

62% of all ticket buyers were white; 15% were Latino, 10% Asian and 9% black. Disney has a Big problem going into Episode IX blacks usually are near the top in terms of the movie goers and for some reason they only showed 9%. I think the backlash and divide amongst the fans as a whole the low turn out of thee african american demographic sales the overwhelming negative opinion on Youtube and other social media venues the 75% drop with the chinese market.. u simply just can't ignore the noise if you are a capitalist colossal such as disney. Numbers going forward definitely won't be stationary in terms of total gross the toys also have done a dive as well that extra 100 million dollars adds up at the end of the day

 

Let's take a deep breathe all together....
it's just a movie, not life.

 

Uhmmmm. SW is the nearest thing i have 2 a religion.

 

Thank you!

What can I say, I've got a big brush.

I'm not dismissing anything.

Just wishing frustrated fans weren't so quick to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Fans who make threats are definitely walking on the extreme side of their hatred.

Glad I have not encountered any of them, but I've heard they are out there.

I'm specifically referring to anyone who hates the movie more than they actually love it.

If that happens to be "a lot of fans" as you said.. then so be it. I'm not keeping count.

Talk is cheap.

If you really love Star Wars... then prove it.

Keep loving Star Wars. Faults included.

The choice is yours alone.

Make that choice.

I dare you.

If you cannot find it in your heart to do so... maybe you don't love SW as much as you think.

Maybe your love is slowly turning to hate.. you've already admitted how worried you are about everything.

Have you experienced anger towards this movie?

Signs of the Darkside.

Careful. Soon you might find yourself suffering.

Honestly though, it kinda seems to me like you already are...

When you worry, you are being fearful.

Remember what Yoda said.

Also, if you're seriously THAT frustrated because your needs are not being met.. you might want to consider looking into a divorce.

Perhaps it's time to find a new love.

I heard Marvel makes a lot of money nowadays.. and offers even more fan-service too!

Hm. That's interesting.

I have control over my emotions.

They do not control me.

I decide how I allow them to affect me and my life. Along with the people around me.

If only you could say the same for yourself.

You CHOOSE to pay for all those material things you've listed.

No one is going to force you.

(See what I did there)

Enjoyment is subjective.

A product or piece of artwork is released/sold and you either enjoy it or you do not.

If you do not enjoy it.. I would highly recommend that you do not spend your money or time on it.

Personally.. I do think what you are asking is too much.

In fact, I actually think it is ridiculous and selfish as well.

I did take the time to read your post, multiple times.

Because you took the time to read mine, and write to me!

Plus, I love you.

I have multiple issues with Rey as well, although for different reasons.

I still love her though.

Why would I jump to conclusions and say you hate women?

That's ridiculous as well.

Very respectable. I commend you for taking this approach.

Wanna know a secret? I had to do the same thing.. go through the same type of process.

I just did it hyper-actively, and alone... because none of my friends are fans of SW. Ha.

Do you really think I saw this movie and was not taken back by a decent amount of it at first?

It was a shocking and surreal experience.

I remember walking out of the theater in complete disbelief.

My entire life and everything I thought I knew or needed had been turned upside down.

That was my rush. It was addictive.

An even more powerful form of Star Wars. Unlike any other experience before it.

I knew there had to be more... something deeper... and there was.

Once I put my ego away and really started asking questions... the answers began flowing in and everything just started making sense. Now I'm completely at peace with TLJ and rank it above all others.

Hopefully you too can find the peace that you seek.

The effort is more than worth it.

So true.

Glad that you did not choose to take that same path, it is a very sad route indeed.

Again, be careful not to hate so much... or let your emotions get the best of you. Be wise.

Do not worry so much either. Nobody is getting thrown out of the community.

There is a lot more love within the fan base than there is hate.

You can see it in this forum. All you have to do is look.

Unfortunately, some people are choosing to leave though... and that's their choice to do so.

I actually have nothing but love for all the haters out there.

Seriously. I love their intense passion. It's awesome.

Seeing so many fans foolishly fall to the Darkside over this movie has been incredible to watch.

Just like with Kylo Ren... I hope they eventually accept the light and find balance in their life.

I've said this before, it's just like Star Wars... only in real life.

Such a great time to be alive.

Also, there is no try.. do or do not. Right?

Misery loves company.

What do you expect when you put out negativity into the world?

Law of attraction.

You're gonna get negativity back.

I don't feel attacked at all. I do not even feel the need to defend the movie. It speaks for itself. Loud and clear.

So love it or hate it. I made my choice long ago, and even now.. I choose to remain loving and loyal.

I just enjoy helping others, to the best of my abilities. This is no different.

By the way, I'm pretty sure 'envy' is a trait of the Darkside as well. Just thought I'd point that out..



With all that being said.. THANK YOU.

Thank you for being so level headed and open-minded with your response. I appreciate it greatly.

My apologies if you found any of my words to be harsh or offensive.

Devil's Advocate and all.

If we would've had this conversation in person, it'd be nothing but smiles and laughter from me.

So just remember, it's all love. Even if we disagree.

This has truly been a pleasure.



"Ride the Tide"

-SOAS

 

This post sort of paints this as a one way street which it completely isn't.

Their are of course idiotic fans who didn't like the film because i dunno Mara Jade wasn't in it and who are incredibly rude about it. But equally their are fans who are been ridiculously abusive to any one who doesn't think its the greatest film of all time.

Talking to people like that from either side is like talking to an ostrich with its head in the sand, and people from both sides have been utterly disgusting. So either side trying to claim the high ground is just utter B.S.

Im really happy for those who loved the film, i really wish i did, i hate disliking a Star Wars film, but i've seen it 3 times and I just think its a mess. Not because I'm anoid that my favourite Rey or Snoke theory didn't happen, but because i think the film is poorly written, terribly paced and spends to much time trying to shock/surprise/mislead audiences and not enough time making the plot flow and make sense. I fully agree with those who say the films has some great themes and is visually stunning, that doesn't make a great film (ask Tommorland) and for me the bad far out ways the good in this film.

Like i say i wish i didn't feel like that, i want to love Star Wars films, but i didn't. If people want to call me hater for that and ignore my opinion because they can't deal with the fact some one has a different opinion to their own then that is fine, but just don't act all high and mighty about it!

 

Terrible film,(imo) but all the hatred and spouting of ill thought out words needs to stop. It’s a film, it creates jobs, wealth and another chapter in the SW universe which some fans adore and greatly value.

Even if some snowflakes both sides of the arguement can’t take criticism we have to try and show love man’ (which is why we can’t have nice things these days).

I sound so patronising it’s great.

Live long and prosper.... oh wait, wrong film. <enrage>

 

Is there a poll going on the forum about what people think of TLJ? You know, with "Love it!", "It's ok", ..... "Hate it" type of options? I tried to find one but couldn't. If there's none, I wouldn't mind to start one. Thanks.

 

What the 'haters' also tend to do is mix up negative criticism with proper critique. They think nitpicking and identifying negative aspects means that they are critiquing the movie properly.

That's not how it works. It is a beautifully made Star Wars movie which has an overwhelmingly positive critical reception. You might not agree with everything you see, some of it might be hard to digest for some, but please everyone, see your own emotional and subjective reception of a movie as fundamentally different from a proper critical reception. Those two are not the same. You can't say this is a bad movie because Canto Bight is weird and it sucks or this movie is objectively bad because they ruined Luke Skywalker/ Finn. The argument: "all the Star Wars fans hate The Last Jedi and that's why it's bad" is hilarious. You are perfectly allowed to say you didn't like Luke, Finn, Rose or Canto Bight, but please see them as separate from the discussion about movie making.

For instance, I think Revenge of the Sith has a beautiful properly written story and some very strong cinematographical moments with proper dialogue and acting. But overall, due to decisions in effects work, dialogue construction, overall acting, and staging the movie falls short when I compare it to other movies in the same genre. Nevertheless, even though I can say "in terms of the metier of moviemaking I consider ROTS to be an average genre piece", I can also say "I love this movie, it does something to me when I see Anakin's fall portrayed on screen". Those two do not exclude each other.

You see, you can perfectly see your objective reception (objective as in "the criteria according to which the critics community evaluates a movie") as separate from your own subjective and highly personal emotional reception.

With The Last Jedi, the two are perfectly alligned for me. I rate it highly as a product of a moviemaking and I love it because it did something to me.

 

I'm not entirely sure if you're being serious or some of those comments are tongue in cheek. Either or, I'm not trying to offend here, but SW is not my moral compass or my rule book on how to behave. All emotions have their value, and denying them are as harmful as over indulging in them. Emotions are not inherently bad or good, they are subject to the context.

A freedom fighter who causes a revolution against a tyranny isn't bad. A murderer who takes joy and finds humor (or is icy calm) in torture isn't good. It's a matter of context.

In other words, Yoda lies lol. I'm not saying there is no wisdom in these stories, but much like the Bible, it does not deal in absolutes and is subject to interpretation. Personally I think there is more value in recognizing your emotion (or emotional state) than suppressing them.

So those who hate or dislike this movie are not moving to some imaginary dark side. Our dislike of this movie is broad and covers many aspects. Many who like this movie even recognize our dislikes. If we were not critical in what we like and didn't like, we might all be discussing Barney and Friends instead of SW. I'm not saying you are wrong for liking it, but that doesn't make us wrong for disliking it. Movie making is a form of art, and not all people can appreciate all forms of art. We have our preferences, which means there are some we dislike or like less. Something is only good in contrast to something that is bad. You cannot have one without the other.

So the only difference between the "lovers" and the "haters" is that you got something that some got something that they preferred, and others did not.

 

But then, technically speaking, TLJ was the third movie in a row they produced and not the second. So TLJ went up when compared to the second one Rogue One. The context is not the same, so the comparison doesn't make sense.

 

Not all of us are film majors. We like what we like. If we left the theater feeling angry, upset, sad, and it had little (or in this case nothing) to do with the movie but rather it's execution, then I think someone is justified in saying the movie is bad. As in bad and would not recommend it to a friend or family member based on our experience. Yes, there were nice visuals and the music was great as always in a SW movie (thank JW), but those things don't make a movie great. Personally I took issue with the multiple misdirects, plot twists and such, which I find is a flaw in writing. Even if the acting is good or great, bad writing can ruin the performance if the subject matter is lacking.

When the film maker can't have his or her audience suspend their disbelief (especially in fantasy and sci-fi) then both parties share equal blame. Especially when dealing with SW fans already, who are pre-disposed to accepting what is given. I take my share as I've stated multiple times on these forums. But that doesn't mean there isn't enough to go around.

Again, I'm not telling you to not like the movie.

At the same time I'm asking you to please not dismiss our criticism or overall view of the movie as unimportant (or unprofessional) just because it doesn't fit your opinion. It worked for you, it didn't work for us. Most of those who dislike this movie stay within threads that are pretty clearly indicated what the subject matter will be about. You can absolutely venture in those threads, but understand you are not preaching to the choir. I think as SW fans all, we can still all choose what stories we like and dislike, what styles we're in favor and which we're not. We're not movie critics, we're viewers. You can tout the critical acclaim all you want, but if I remember correctly, SW was rarely well received by critics, so as a viewer, I don't put much stock into their approval.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 18, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 18, 2018 ---

Funny, this threads' title seems especially constructed to invite more conflict.

By all means ignore those who disagree with you if you can't contribute to a mature discussion or opposing view. It would indeed be very easy if you simply read the title of the thread, which in most cases clearly states the opinion of the OP (and therefor the ensuing conversation). If you venture into one of those threads, which is of course your right, don't be starting other threads lamenting that you are somehow a better fan than those of a different opinion. I would hope people would be cordial in their disagreements, but alas, some people on both sides have taken to be quite defensive of their positions (as well as unyielding).

Film is an art form, and in any art there is preference. There can only be a preferred good art in light of bad, otherwise all art would be equal, thus nothing better or worse than the last. Art is subjective, there are no absolutes. If you can't accept that people hate or very much dislike TLJ, I think it speaks to you more than it does the persons opinion of the film.

The same goes for those who dislike TLJ and can't accept that others like it. In both cases, you need to step back and ask yourself why it bothers you so much what another thinks of it. I believe those who assail and harass others who think differently are not as secure in their position as those who can talk about it without being confrontational. Discuss, respect, question and take your daily dose of humility.

 

Yet, some still engage in critical discourse as if they are critics, so get ready to be judged by critical standards. I'm not saying that everyone should think and perceive like a critic, what I'm arguing against is the mis-appropriation and mis-usage of critical method. The purpose is to identify the difference between personal reception and objective (according the criteria of filmcriticism) critique. Many people claim that they're doing the latter whilst actually doing the former. From the objective perspective I cannot really say the movie constitutes 'bad writing', especially because the misdirects are either the result of subjective reception (mostly on the basis of the the narrative that was established before TLJ) or because every seemingly sudden twists is anticipated in narrative. Plot twist is always framed in the context of choice and available information in the Last Jedi. If the twist would be like "we investigated the plummer and the warden, one of these two might have murdered the young girl, and then suddenly reveal it was the grandfather, even though we did not previously see or hear of him in the narrative, then this constitutes 'inconsequential writing' which we might consider 'bad' (we don't really use that word anyway in media criticism).

I compare it to the following. I am also a historian. But everyone can write history. If I review a book about for instance the context of composition of the biblical book ofMatthew, I will judge according to the standards of my profession. I can consider it a succesful or unsuccesful endevour on the basis of those criteria. But then the fanboys come in: those who believe in the absolute veracity of the bible. They're not trained as historians, they are believers. Whereas I would say that the book presents a succesful argument on the basis of the criteria commonly accepted in my profession, the 'believers' judge the book to be highly flawed because it questions the 'absolute truths' of the biblical text. The latter also presumes to be an 'objective' critique of the book and uses methods of historical criticism in an uneven and haphazerd fashion (misuse), even though the book wasn't written as a religious Tome.

Why would I take into account the 'believer's' reception as a serious critique of the book I, as a professional, reviewed? I don't do that. I'd rather had them say: "I didn't like the book because it conflicts with my personal beliefs about biblical truth" instead of their flawed usage of psuedo-historical criticism to embellish their argument.

So people are absolutely allowed to say: I do not like the twist, I believes the movie was going this way and I was disappointed that it didn't. I didn't like Luke Skywalker etc., just as long as they don't embellish their argument with pseudo-critical constructs. Because if someone does this, that person shouldn't be angered when he is corrected by people who do know. Knowing who knows is ultimately better than presuming you know everything yourself. Better to trust the critics on whether the movie on the basis of movie-making standards was a succesful endevour than to presume you know just as well as the critics. I trust the critics. They think ANH, ESB, TFA and TLJ were beautifully made movies. So do I. That doesn't mean I have to agree. But it does mean that I need to take into account their arguments when I need to present a different view. I can say of a building, that's a beautifully-made building. The architect next to me is laughing. He doesn't trust or very much respect my opinion, not should he. He knows it is about to collapse. Yet with Star Wars it is the other way around. Funny.

With TFA there were some people who completely got this. They hated TFA for a whole range of reasons. But they still managed to distinguish between their own personal subjective reception and the more objective critical reception. They said, "though TFA is an outstanding movie in terms of movie-making, I didn't like it as much as a Star Wars movie. I would personally have hoped that they.....etc." Or with ROTS people who said: "in terms of movie-making, ROTS wasn't really that impressive, but I love it because it was ......etc."

I hope this clarifies a bit how I stand in the discussion.

 

Technically, it was both. At the same time.. and yes, I enjoyed it very much.

I think that might be why some fans are having such a difficult time accepting or appreciating TLJ.

They take things way too seriously, to the point of actually being one-sided.

So in all seriousness, I was being completely genuine with my words. I meant what I said.

Hopefully that helps!

Not offended at all. Even though I do consider it a guide book of mine.. I see no reason to be offended.

Same goes for the Bible, and every other religious or philosophical text I've ever studied.

I incorporate everything I come across into my moral compass one way or another.

Star Wars is based on our reality and draws heavily from real life cultures and religions around the world and throughout time as well.

I'm just doing my best to make sense of it all.

I agree completely.

We weren't talking about denial though, we were discussing control. Specifically the differences between controlling your emotions.. and allowing them to control you.

From the tyrants' point of view they could definitely be considered bad.

Maybe we should ask Sheev?

Anakin disagrees with you.

He seemed pretty cool and calm to me when he slaughtered all them younglings.. you know, right before he went on to tell Obi-Wan the Jedi are evil... and he's the champion of all that is good and just in the galaxy.

Context, right?

You're the one who lies! Yoda is a little green angel.

Correct, but we choose how we interpret things based on our personal knowledge and level of understanding.

The way you choose to interpret your experience determines the way you live your life.

That's why there is so much variance.. which is said to be the spice of life and all that jazz.

So I am in no way complaining, I happen to love me some variation!

I agree with you on this completely. Emotions are extremely valuable.

But once again, I never said anything about denial or suppression of emotions. Only exercising control and rising above them, so to speak.

It's called an analogy. No need to be so anal. I thought it might help to explain things in a way you could identify with, but either I failed horribly in conveying that.. or you are just taking things way too seriously.

Trust me, I know. I think we all do by now.

I am one of those many people. I fully recognize your dislikes. I just happen to like what you dislike. All is good!

This made no sense to me. If you wanna discuss Barney and Friends, I'm totally down. Just let me know!

It's your choice to be critical, but if you're going to be that way.. at least be constructive about it. That's my advice.

Right... wrong. Eh. It's not really about morals in this case.

It about our attitude.

I choose to be positive and thus am able to enjoy the movie, very much actually.

You choose to be negative, and in turn are not able to enjoy the movie. No surprise there.

Opinion? Perspective? Choice?

To each their own.

Movie making is a form of art indeed, and in my opinion TLJ is a masterpiece.

Obviously. Now I'm just getting bored.

You're the one who is having acceptance issues but is too attached to let go. Sounds like a bad relationship.

You're talking to a Dualist. My religion is Dualism. I'm also a Gemini. I embrace both aspects, of everything. Always.

It might benefit you to actually practice what you just preached and do the same thing, starting with TLJ.

Who knows.. maybe it'll help!

So blind. So selfish.

Guess I'm just one of those lucky Star Wars fans, right?

Poor you.

Seems kinda childish, don't you think?

Your response this time around was like, super depressing and not fun at all. lol.

When you can't change your circumstances, change yourself.

Wish I could've been of more help, but you're still missing the larger picture and continue to be caught up in the seriousness of your emotions. Give it some time. Hopefully you can learn to enjoy the movie more one day.


Do you enjoy music by chance? Here's my parting gift to you..

Time to go outside and watch the sun rise.. have a great day everyone!


"Ride the Tide"

-SOAS

 

Wow another thread which is defending this meh movie...
Just curious why are creating nearly every day a new thread?
Why are you attacking the "HATERS"?

I believe it's a normal human behavior.
Your brain can't accept the fact, that TLJ is a bad movie. So you all decided to create your own reality with alternative facts.
It's just sad, really really sad...

 

I really hope IX will give you back your peace of mind. Can’t bear your depressing posts anymore.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 18, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 18, 2018 ---

a MOVIE..??

 

Did you seriously just attempt to turn the table and label people who enjoy this movie as attackers of some sort?

That's a new low.

You pretty much just went full DARVO.

(Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender)


Curious..

Why are you so salty that people like this movie?

..is it jealousy? Because they can enjoy it and you cannot?

More importantly, why are you even in this thread other than to voice your negative opinion?

Believe what you want... just wish you weren't so super sad!

CHEER UP BUTTERCUP!!


"Ride the Tide"

-SOAS

 

You just proved the OP's point

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 18, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 18, 2018 ---

"And may the Force be with you!" - the Seeker replied.

 

I was waiting for you to reply. Wasn't sure what your response was going to be, honestly..

It was beyond good. It was great.

Thank you. So much. Real recognize real.


"Ride the Tide"

-SOAS