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Why is backstory so important?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Lock_S_Foils, Jul 5, 2018.

  1. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    And ANH isn't chapter one. It's chapter four. You can't say one is chapter 7 when the one you're arguing doesn't need support is literally labeled "Episode 4"
    See, this is a circular argument
    But it is part 1 of a trilogy. And you get everything you need to know for that specific trilogy.

    Star Wars is pulp fiction at it's core. And leaving characters like Snoke "unanswered" is basically a way of ensuring your interest in their upcoming Snoke novel and/or comics. It doesn't actually change the story in 7,8,9 to know anything about Snoke. If Snoke was a hooker who won the lottery and started the First Order with the winnings, it doesn't change anything about the story between Rey and Kylo Ren, the main story.
     
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  2. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    ANH is chapter four chronologically, chapter one in order of creation. For the purposes of this discussion--that is, how much backstory is needed for a specific plot--it makes sense to me to deal with ANH as chapter one. Because that's where we establish our universe. Episode I itself doesn't need to give you backstory on lightsabers, Jedi, Sith, etc because we received those things in the previous installment.
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    That feels awfully thin.
    It's chapter four. TFA is chapter one in order of creation of this new trilogy

    Lucas made a movie in the middle of a story.
    It's pulp story telling.
     
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  4. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    When A New Hope was released, it was not Episode IV. It was just called Star Wars. There were no definite plans for further films. No novels. No canon. Lucas even went on vacation during its release because he didn't want to be around to see it fail. It has its own beginning, middle, and end moreso than any other Star Wars film. It had to function on its own. It alone bore the weight of successfully introducing every major concept of Star Wars. Every other Star Wars film has relied on the groundwork laid in this film, even those which chronologically fall before it. I really don't think this much is debatable.
     
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  5. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Jedi Commander

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    Well I can't disagree with that.

    I've said before that I consider 'Star Wars' to be the original - and the best! - 'standalone' movie. It needs neither prequels nor sequels.
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    But then Lucas made it episode 4. So everything you say doesn't count against it actually does. Because Lucas made it that way.
    TFA functions on it's own as well. It's not until you take into consideration the previous films that you have questions and want answers.
    That's pulp story telling. It's not supposed to give you every answer. It's supposed to leave you wanting to know more about little things.
    It's the equivalent of Lucas name dropping the clone wars in ANH and not making a big deal about it.
     
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  7. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    What he is saying is not even remotely thin. Episode IV was our first entry into the GFFA. I don't care what chapter or episode you call it, it was the viewer's first introduction to the GFFA.

    Episode VII is a continuation of the pre-established storyline. From a perspective of good storytelling, the rules are quite different for E4 than they are for E7. The ST has the responsibility of telling you how you got there from the end of E6.
     
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  8. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Jedi Commander

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    He probably didn't even know what it was. Just some sci-fi type war thing that happened in the past.
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    That's kind of the point.
    It's made to sound like a big deal with how it's used.
    Like having a dad who fought on D-Day.

    But it was just there to make the point that Luke's dad was considered a hero and great warrior etc.

    It's like Buckaroo Banzai. Buckaroo Banzai drops the names of a bunch of things like your supposed to know what they are. Casually and with no interest in explaining them. It's made like it's book 4 of a 9 part pulp story you'd pick up because the cover looks interesting.
    If they want to explain it more they can, but it doesn't change the actual story of what you're watching on the screen.
     
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  10. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    I think I see where you're coming from. What I'm saying, there's some backstory you need for the plot, and some you don't.

    You mentioned the Clone Wars name-drop in A New Hope. That's a great example of something they don't need to explain, something that just captures the imagination and makes you want more. I would argue that other things, such as lightsabers and the force, really needed that tiny bit of backstory that Obi-Wan gives them in New Hope.

    I think where we really disagree is on exactly what backstory is necessary. I think we really needed something about Snoke--even just a sentence, like Obi-Wan telling Luke about the force in New Hope. But to you, Snoke is more like Obi-Wan mentioning the Clone Wars, something to spark the imagination and tie in later, and that's fine.

    And I greatly appreciate any chance to work in a Buckaroo Banzai reference. No matter where you go, there you are.
     
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  11. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Jedi Commander

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    What rules? There are no 'rules'. Just forms and conventions. Of which there are few of for nine part epic space-opera fairy tales.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 17, 2018 ---
    yeah I know :)
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Why did we need more on Snoke though? What does anything about him change? Does it change how or why Ben turned? Not without being unnecessarily convoluted. It's okay to *want* more on Snoke. You should want more on Snoke. But it's also completely irrelevant to the plot of this story.
     
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  13. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    If you honestly need to be told the elements of good stories/storytelling, then I just can't help you here. You would need instruction far beyond what a casual discussion forum can provide.
    Sorry, but there is nothing special about being a "9-part epic space-opera fairy tale" that means the writers can just disregard the elements that make for great stories and still expect people to enjoy their tales.

    NOTE: To be clear, obviously the producers can do whatever they want so they can disregard as many elements of good storytelling they so desire.... but then I have every right to call them out for it and explain why their movie comes up so short in that regard..... and that's why, 20 years from now, the original trilogy will still be seen as all-time classics whereas the sequel trilogy will just be a yawn. It is the GFFA's equivalent of The Godfather, Part 3 (and even that description is generous).

    When the producers completely put aside good storytelling, it is no coincidence that Star Wars has gone only downhill since the first Disney movie was released.
     
    #93 Wolfpack, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
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  14. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    why immediately turn to something rude when someone disagreed with something you wrote?

    snapping and insulting someone because they have a different opinion is playground stuff.

    "i disagree - so let's just move on mate :)"
    easy ;)
     
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  15. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    I don't see how that was being rude and I don't see any insult in my post. I talked about the rules of good storytelling. The response what "What rules? There are no 'rules'."

    I'm sorry if it seems rude to state that there are indeed "rules" for good storytelling and that, quite honestly, giving a detailed analysis of the objective elements involved in good stories/storytelling is something that goes far beyond anything I could describe here. That is a shortcoming on my part because I am not a good writer.
    Yes, that is easy enough but I usually (not always, but usually) provide support for my statement instead of merely writing "I disagree."
     
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  16. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    if you didn't mean to be rude.. then you weren't being rude, but that doesn't mean that the person reading it wont take offense.

    that's all from one paragraph and it's being very personal towards the person you're replying to.. and could be seen as insulting.
    whenever anyone replies to the poster instead of the post (we all do it.. including the moaning bastard writing this lol) we run the risk of insulting that poster and causing no end of arguments.

    fight your case.. absolutely. If you feel passionately about a discussion then fight for what you believe in.. but stick to your opinion and try not to reference the person you're fighting. it can be done !

    :)
     
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  17. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Sith in the North
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    The way you phrased your statement could have been much less icy and personal, as I along with @Maximus also took it to be pretty rude.

    Saying..:
    ...starts off by insulting the person you are responding to by sounding astonished at the fact that he/she does not know these rules to which you are referring, which you make sound as if they are universal truths such as 2+2=4. Then, you go on to dismiss them because they don't know what you are talking about and obviously aren't worth your time.

    I know, tone can't be read in a forum post, and maybe it was an honest mistake. But next time think twice before making it personal like that.

    And as for everyone else, let's not try and turn everything into a you're wrong, I'm right type of deal. For the most part we're all discussing opinions here, not facts. So let's stop arguing about opinion like we're talking about fact. If you needed backstory, explain why. But don't dismiss someone who doesn't. If you didn't need backstory, say why it worked for you. But don't criticize someone else for wanting something that wasn't included in this story.
     
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  18. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    There seems to be some disconnect on how these trilogies work. From a storytelling purpose they serve a dual purpose. Yes, they're connected overall to the 9 episodes arc, but each trilogy has to be accessible to a new audience. For someone who hasn't kept a close eye on Star Wars watching long backstories on minor characters would take them out of the film. The film is about Rey/Finn/Poe. Luke has a larger part in TLJ and he got more backstory.

    Once you start rolling out backstories on side characters you lose parts of the audience.

    People who read the Game of Thrones books complained that minor characters didn't get enough back story on the TV episodes, but that was by design as well. In books you can flesh out long backstories, but there's just not time to do that on TV. We didn't get a long backstory in the films on Darth Maul, Dooku, Snoke, or General Grievous. None of these characters were central characters.
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Yep.
    And they do a TON of backstories in GoT.
    All the mains get something. Even most of the secondaries.
    But people were mad we didn't get super in depth on characters who just wont fit on a show even one as big as GoT.
    Snoke is a stepping stone for Ren in this story. That doesn't mean he can't have his own big backstory when it's time.
     
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  20. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    That is a bad analogy. The TV presentation of GoT is an entirely different adaptation, therefore it is not obligated to the books (or minor characters appearing in the books) in any way. By contrast, the sequel trilogy is a continuation of the saga and is therefore obligated to logically proceed from what came before.

    A better analogy would be if the TV series ended with Season 4, picked up with Season 7, and didn't bother telling us how the characters got from point A to point B.
     
    #100 Wolfpack, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
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