Official Finn Episode VIII thread

first up.. i love your post bro. thank you

the funny thing is.. i don't feel like there's been a discussion about TLJ yet. whether folks are saying they love it or hate it, i personally think that nearly everyone here is holding on too tight to 'their' star wars. It's been slowly bubbling up to the surface since Carrie, Mark & Harrison were first announced to be returning for the new trilogy.

I don't think i see the movies (i'm talking all movies - not just SW) like a lot of people do. i watch them waiting for magical moments. If the movie has them and/or doesn't drag along slowly (i really don't like slow movies lol.. stuff needs to happen) then i tend to announce that i like the movie.
I wouldn't watch 'Last of the Mohicans' from the beginning again if you paid me.. but i think the last 10 minutes of it is the best 10 minutes of any movie i have ever seen. Same with Intersteller.. i was bored out of my mind watching and trying to understand it, and then the section where they have to dock with the station that's spinning our of control literally had my jaw on the floor.
I can't remember the last time i watched ROTJ from the beginning.. i find the first 2/3 of the movie utterly boring, and then the ending blows me away.

I don't need exposition, "proper" character development, a hole-less plot, "fan service" (whatever the hell THAT is lol) or any of the other stuff that people are arguing about. I just need a few magical moments. i'm very low maintenance

That sounds like i ignorantly love Star Wars. I think it's more a case that i'm ignorantly happy to be getting new Star Wars, and having a place among friends to celebrate all things Star Wars has had a positive effect on my life.

I 100% do not want people to stop talking negatively about TLJ. I wanted 'different' from the ST for the very reason of giving the Cantina and all the other SW sites decades of things to discuss (and argue about). debate and differing opinions is the very fuel for sites like this.. we always need more, not less.

There is a line though.. a line that should not be crossed. bringing talk of boycotting a SW movie to the Cantina among members that did love the movie is a mile over that line. calling KK and RJ rude names among members that love what they have made is over that line.
Just yesterday someone posted something similar to 'RJ trolled us' umpteen times in the same post.. there are members here that absolutely adore what RJ made. telling someone they are not a fan because they didn't like a movie.. over that line. Telling someone that they shouldn't be here because they didn't like a movie.. over that line.
If it's not respectful to other members.. if it's personally insulting.. if it's overly bashing a franchise that this site was created for to celebrate.. then it's over that line.

The Cantina is not the comments section of YouTube, nor is it twitter or reddit.. it was made, and is run by people that love Star Wars.. for others that love Star Wars.

it's not about 'The Last Jedi'. i couldn't care less about the movie right now.. i almost hate the bloody thing right now lol i just want members to stop crossing that line.

i will not post in the 'love' thread about TLJ.. believe it or not, i hate that thread more than the 'hate' one. I'm glad that the thread helped you post-TLJ.. but i see it as a failure of the community that we couldn't help you without the need to make some kind of safe haven to post in. It feels like a personal failure that myself and other members couldn't pull together through that period in any other way. it's just how i feel bro.

at some point people will start believing me when i say this.. but if we stop crossing that line and stick to the long established forum method of threads with topics - things will be absolutely awesome here for many many years to come.

 

I think the reason people now call him a side character (and i'd agree) is because you could remove finn from the film completely and very little would change.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2018 ---

this is fanboys complaining online, which is what they always do when the movie they anticipated doesn't turn out exactly the way they constructed it in their own heads.

Thats kind of dismissive, don't you think? I'm sure you realize that nobody is pissed because the film didn't match exactly what they constructed in their heads. Most people have been very very clear on why they didn't enjoy the film. Most of it has to do with story problems, out of character behavior, and a lack of vision on the part of LFM. I disliked TLJ. I found solo to be passable, but nothing to write home about. I don't think people are looking for fan service in the new star wars films. (heheh, well a certain type of fan service is always welcome har har.) I was most excited about the new star wars films when TFA showcased a black kid with a lightsaber. If anything, that told me that they were doing something new. If the jedi is an ex storm trooper and is obviously not related to luke or any skywalker, then we could expect some interesting new adventures. That was my only expectation. I enjoyed TFA for the most part and looked forward to where things could go next. TLJ opted to do nothing at all. I'd imagine you disagree, but i'd never be so presumptuous as to say that you only loved the film because it gave you your favorite ship or because it gave you all the things you constructed in your head.

 

It's funny but I agree with you, but as you've stated in another thread, this is all I know of the Cantina or other SW fan forums. So to me, what you're talking about is wanting a utopia fan forum. Sadly, that doesn't exist and what we have is what we see. Dreaming to have the utopia isn't bad, but doing so to the point we're missing what we have and not dealing with the reality of the fandom isn't progressive either.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that I'd love the forum that you suggest, but at the same time, fans have a journey to make to get there, and may never fully get there. That isn't bad, the idea is still worth striving for, but instead of refusing to take part in the here and now, lead by example. Make your actions be the standard (I'm not saying you're not, but do it everywhere). You won't get everyone on board, but in some sense you (among others) convinced a "hater" like me . We need to work toward that end collectively, haters and lovers alike.

Here's what I mean.

If someone makes a statement of fact that we see as being opinion, softly call them on it. Example: "SW EPIX is going to tank because of TLJ!" ... instead of a fan who loves TLJ calling them on it, have a "hater" call them on it. Two reasons for this. Someone who's known to foster similar views to yourself will get less resistance and the message will have more weight. Second, once the statement has been addressed, less people will feel the need to weigh in. Especially if the person calling them on it is your "enemy" lol (I know, I hate the divisiveness too, but that's where we are in certain situations).

Second, someone who agrees with the statement as opinion is likely to be more diplomatic in their "correction". Both these factors will play greatly in the continuation of the discussion on the important points being made and deflect away from the ignorance or trolling ect...

However, the only way this works is if it's done on both sides. You can't have one portions of the fandom doing it and the other one not, because then you are discrediting your view and by extension, giving the "other side" a leg up in the argumentative nature of many of these discussions. I think we are all directly responsible for the state of affairs in the SW community, based largely on our choices in addressing opinions that are termed as facts. I'm not saying that's the only issue, but I think it's one that sets a lot of people off. Eliminating that alone would relieve a lot of the tension and fear even about posting.

I think most people have considered leaving these forums at one point or another due to the toxicity. I took a break a while back for 10 days to gain perspective and just clear my mind. The sad thing is that it's no one person, there are two opposing group thinks, and a ridiculous fear or desire to not let the other side "win". We have to realize that what we say here has very little impact on the final product. If you disagree with someone, or the way something is presented, it's kind of our duty to call that out, allegiances be damned. Often they can be made in such a way that people won't even realize it's being made.

I think we should also be careful about the lines we think should exist. I think the lines are much more fluid depending on how it's presented. What someone sees as overtly negative can be giving hope to someone else. Take the boycott idea as an example.

I never furthered that idea, but I did state I did not have plans to watch Solo. I stated my reasoning, making sure to point out it isn't just because of TLJ, but also make a point to say TLJ did have a significant impact on my decision. However I never encouraged anyone else to. I've also read other posts playing on similar ideas.

To you, I'm thinking such a statement is scandalous. To me it's no different than anyone talking about SW, their like or dislike. Seeing other people post similar things gives perspective on the mind set of the SW community. Others said they'll watch Solo the first day, and I never called them out on it, nor do I remember anyone else who did (and nobody should). These are individual decisions, and somehow the thread segued into that topic, so it's relevant. Again, to me it all comes down to presentation.

Personally I think there will always be two branches of SW fans moving forward. Those who love TLJ and those who don't. I don't think the goal should be to silence that discussion, but rather, to allow for other discussions beyond those opinions. As much as I have issues with the ST, I can still talk about nine and speculate without constantly bashing that product. I can put my haters hat aside. A big reason for that is because of the "haters" thread. Often I bite my tongue in another thread only to bring up something elsewhere to the haters thread instead, where I find it's more appropriate (because if some want to avoid that discussion, it's easier to do so.).

Summing it up, I don't think your SW forum utopia will ever exist, but I still see it as a worthy goal to strive for. The onus is on us to make it happen, and more often then not, that requires us to engage, but to do so in a way that doesn't start fires, but rather, puts them out before they begin or get out of control.

 

my eyes were bleeding from my own post.. you had to do it didn't you?

we never had a utopia before 'that film' came out, and no.. the site of my dreams where we all hug each other constantly will never happen.

nothing wrong with aiming high though

I've said it before, and i'll say it again.. there was no movie that RJ could have made that wouldn't have us exactly where we are now. the protagonists might be different, but we would be here. the differences in what people wanted from the characters and the story were and still are colossal in size. TFA & TLJ were nothing like what i wanted.. but i happened to enjoy them, which is perhaps lucky.

JJ's movie can't bring us back together in any shape or form.. we have to roll our sleeves up and do it ourselves.

 

I wouldn't like to hug every single person anyway.

Some people might be an exception though.

The question remains: do we even want to come back together (I think a part of the fandom was never together from the get go)? It's probably like in real life. There are people and opinions you like and some you don't like. The first one are much more likely to become your friends, the second ones are just people to you. As long as you don't offend or even hurt them, everything should be fine.

 

yes.. I want to love every single member here.



to quote the legendary Sir Sean Connery..
“I take the good with the bad. I can’t love people in slices.

we don’t need to agree on everything to be great friends.

without respect for each other and the site.. we got nothing

 

...and yet he's the most beloved character in the movie

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

Conflict can create friendship, actually.

 

Seems Finn isn't as popular as some would have us think. Hmm, I wonder why that is? Could it be that the story elements that got people excited for him in TFA marketing not being capitalized on had an effect? Lightsaber, force user? Bait and switch.
Could it be that the further degradation of Finn as a character in TLJ through the removal of any of the little agency he had in TFA being snatched away did? Leaving the Resistance and finding his own way back through his own personal experiences, that could be interest- Nope, let's just have him get dragged and bossed around by a new character.
Or even the fact that the Finn we're introduced to in BTA seems completely different from the Finn in TFA and TLJ? What's that, a bada$$ normal with exceptional combat capabilities that he trained his entire life to develop. Nope, he's somehow just a guy.
Maybe it's the fact that we're going into the third movie of the trilogy and no one has any idea what his point is yet. Or maybe even the lack of even an appearance by the producers of TLJ to use the most basic elements of his character to build any interest? Stormtrooper being one of the galaxy's greatest heroes? Nope, he's a Resistance guy. You mean a bada$$ Resistance general that can go toe to toe with force users and maybe even pull out a win. No, he's just a regular Resistance guy.

 

Finn has fallen far from where he once was. Anyone who was strictly into his development is not coming back. Making a story less interesting is not going to bring in more money. It seems people would prefer to have a movie where he isn't playing a major part. Even if it means lesser returns at the box office. Well they got their wish with TLJ.
Finn was just too much a part of the story for his character to take a back seat the way he did, and it screwed up the entire story. Rey may have the force, but I doubt Rey was ever expected to play this big major role people want her to play. She was always going to be a part of a team. Perhaps the more powerful one, but she was never going to be a solo act. She's already did that. We are more interested in how she interacts with others.
When people say JJ was in agreement with RJ I call bull. Kylo is on Jakku in the beginning of the movie, and not one time did he feel another presence that would be connected to him in the force. If it was always about Rey and Kylo then that was the perfect time and place to lay the foundation.

 

I'm not so sure about that. Kathleen Kennedy all but said that she was a solo act when she was comparing her to Jyn. I think this was before Rogue One came out.

 

The concern was Jyn overshadowing the other characters in order for her to stand out. There was a lot of backlash against this, because Rey was already being accused of being a Mary Sue.

 

In regard to this again Ray, Hollywood Reporter recently did an interview with Iger: Here.

In it, Iger said this when asked about Star Wars:

Many believe Disney should pump the breaks and not put out a Star Wars movie each year.

I made the timing decision, and as I look back, I think the mistake that I made — I take the blame — was a little too much, too fast. You can expect some slowdown, but that doesn't mean we're not going to make films. J.J. [Abrams] is busy making [Episode] IX. We have creative entities, including [Game of Thrones creators David] Benioff and [D.B.] Weiss, who are developing sagas of their own, which we haven't been specific about. And we are just at the point where we're going to start making decisions about what comes next after J.J.'s. But I think we're going to be a little bit more careful about volume and timing. And the buck stops here on that.​

He didn't mention R.J.'s film in his list of upcoming projects, but he also didn't mention John Favreau's project either so it's possible he may have shortened his list.

In any case, my personal opinion is that if R.J.'s trilogy was big on his radar I feel he would've dropped it in the list beside J.J.'s EPIX and Benioff and Weiss' film. Plus, I think the concept of a "slowdown" would also infringe on the possibility of R.J.'s trilogy and this decision most likely explain's R.J.'s move to do another film outside of Star Wars. Also, seems since Iger is saying they are now at the point to start making decisions about what comes next after J.J. that R.J.'s as well as other projects other than what he listed are not necessarily a sure thing going forward from the point of this interview.

I suspect some fans of R.J. and TLJ will fly in with the defense that I already stated. That this is a summary of the projects and we shouldn't read too much into it. I believe such a view also ignores the potential decisions Disney has to make based on other failed projects as well as fan backlash of things like Star Wars: Resistance as well. It seems they may be learning that digging their heels in and telling a certain portion of the fanbase to "shut up and color" so to speak isn't working and they might need to drop some projects and/or go back to the drawing board while slowing down the process.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 21, 2018 ---

I get what you're saying, but this proves to me she must've had no idea what she was saying or Jyn was a solo act in KK's mind only cause in the movie Jyn was part of a team. Without her team, nothing would've transpired in Rogue One. Granted, from a story perspective, Jyn was the main character, but she didn't go at it alone, and she always interacted with others. When the team was formed the story switched from Jyn carrying it to the group carrying it. Especially since other characters quickly overshadowed her like the Droid, Chirrut, etc. Maybe KK, wanted Jyn to be the main force that carries the movie, but that didn't happen.

I would say the same with TFA and TLJ. It's evident she wanted Rey to be the force, no pun intended, to carry the movie, but it's pretty obvious when you watch TFA particularly, that's not the case. It's a two-man show (Rey & Finn) coupled with Poe, Leia, etc. In TLJ, when they try to force it to be about Rey and Kylo, it's damaging as Corn Cream said since it wasn't that way in TFA.

 

No. He's quoting that Kathleen said Jyn's is a team player character while Rey wasn't.

 

Agreed, but I am encouraged. Even if they still planned to a Rian trilogy, I wouldn't mention it right now just knowing how radioactive it is to some of the fanbase. But if they have so many of these other projects in the works, what need was there for a Rian trilogy? The GOT people have proven they have the chops to put together a story that showcases an ensemble and is generally well thought out and logically "air tight", so I know why he'd mention that... no way I would 86 that project.

Also, the fact that HE is taking blame for the problems, suggests to me that he has already privately laid accountability at KK's feet. Taking accountability publicly (in my experience) is stage craft used to suggest strong and yet benevolent leadership meant to assuage the constituents and low level employees; but he's not actually taking the blame. He is, in effect, saying "I am the Captain, I know things haven't been perfect but I'm going to get us right". Why would this be bad? Because he is saying HE is the Captain. It gets lost in the apologetic and empathetic tone, and taking responsibility but it is the root of the conversation. This is theater I would have expected him to let KK do; looking both strong but empathetic, understanding, receptive, (and more importantly) continuing to be the executive FACE of Star Wars. He took that away from KK. Wow. I would actually expect him not to say anything all than this. I guess she really has been undercut.

 

I think you guys will like this video

 

Even though I like some of Ortega's work, I have to say this is a bad fix. Flashback are ususally seen as a weak tool of story telling (at least if it is used wrongly). Personally I don't have anything against the "Finn hitting his head" joke, but I would have made it differently too. Maybe we just hear the fight sounds of the duel between Finn and Kylo and then he awakes shocked.

 

I'm sitting here wondering how Abrams is going to accomplish the tall task of making Finn a memorable character and I'm pretty stumped. As far as co-leads/deuteragonists go he is nowhere near as memorable a character as Obi-Wan, Han Solo, Kanan Jarrus etc. and I find that very sad. His trajectory through two movies can be summed up like this:

TFA: Leaves First Order, ends up with the Resistance
TLJ: Acknowledges being part of the Resistance.

This is what they have to work with in the last movie of the sequel trilogy. But they dug their own hole by ignoring Greg Rucka's superior and supposedly canon characterization in BTA in favor of a bland and unskilled stock character. They further screwed the pooch by piling all the skills onto a single main character whose only purpose seems to be to win and succeed for plot convenience.

 

In my opinion. There is nothing they can do. The only thing that would interest me is Finn being FS. I don't care about the FO, Kylo, Rey or the Resistance. They can do whatever they want with this movie as far as I am concerned. Whatever interest I had for this trilogy is now gone. I will admit I am curious how they will market the next film, but that's about it.

 

I think that besides Finn being force-sensitive, tying Finn's origins to the new 'Mandalorian' show could help him somewhat moving forward. But that would only work if there are future live-action plans in store for John Boyega with great stories that get proper planning and Finn could show marked improvement in EPIX with the reveal coming midway through the movie. Beyond Force-sensitive or Mandalorian Finn, I don't really see a way they can even partially fix this if Finn is just a Resistance guy. Especially if he has to split time with Poe, Rose and 'Naomie Ackie'. Just my opinion though.

 

So happy you spoke about Rucka. Absolutely agree. He nailed Finn - an Rey and Poe.
And he did that... without TFA script. Just with some notes.
Amazing