THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Can we add a "Thank You" icon on list of other icons...lol

 

It's Ok to me to be called by mods because I broke a rule but I won't take any moral lessons or personal judgements by members who think they are right to be the police out there.

 

There is one thing I wanted to say about the characterization of Luke in TLJ.

Most of the lovers said : Did you want him to be a God like ? To be flawless ? To never fail at anything ?

But Luke Skywalker is all but a Gary stu who never fails.

He failed many many times during the OT.

Fail to chose the good droid.
Fail to save his uncle and aunt
Almost beat up in a cantina by thugs.
Beaten up by a wampa.
Being an arrogant brat with Yoda.
Fail in the dark side cave.
Thinking he's gonna beat Vader and got roasted, lose an hand.

Is this supposed to be a flawless god ? He shot down the Death Star but not because he's gifted ( even if indeed he was ) but because of his inonence and total faith in what he was doing.

But the main characteristic of Luke is that he never gives up. He's loyal to his friends and he's the kind of guy you can always trust to help and that's because of that that he became an heroic archetypes for many kids in the world.

And seeing him grumpy and careless about things he's indeed done was out of character for many people.

If Luke would have give up, he should have done it just after the end of ESB when he realized that the villain was his father and he was clearly no match for him like OK, this is definitely too big for me

And considering he had enough faith to throw his lightsaber to his very enemy at the end of ep VI it clearly made no sense for many people to even think about killing the son of his sister and best friend during the night like any given psychopath.

 

To me the characterization of Luke made no sense whatsoever. Especially given what we were given by the story. Luke decides to rebuild the Jedi order because it was supposed to help Ben? Then, when he saw Ben turning to the dark side he wanted to murder him???? Makes no sense to me.

Not only that, but I question RJ's understanding of the GFFA universe. The Holdo maneuver, the two lessons Luke gives Rey... Its like Johnson really knew nothing about Star Wars. Why have him write the film? And where was the so-called "Story Group" in all of this???

Anyway, there is good news in that (and it's a tad off topic) Chuck Wendig was fired today. Finally. I can't see why they insisted on allowing this guy, who constantly insults what, half the fan base, continue as a writer for them. Maybe LFL/Marvel and Disney are finally starting to realize it's a bad idea to insult your customers.

 

I am not here to play this game but thanks.

 

What I was saying is that I'm not a mod and I don't usually give bad rep nor reporting people.

 

Spoiler

Lol sorry I always wanted to do that.. I don't know what's going on here.

 

Something that confuses me about the new films is bearing in mind the money and importance behind the new trilogy. I understand the choice of JJ as director for episode 7. But was he and Kasdan really the absolute best people they could get to write the script for that film? Was RJ the best director they could have hired to write and direct 8 , what in his past work gave them the impression he was the best possible choice for that job and film? and is JJ really the best person to be writing episode 9? What has he written before that qualifies him to be closing out such an important story?

Surely creative, experienced talented people would be queueing round the block to work on films like these and Disney has the money to entice near enough whoever they want. I like the new films enough i suppose, they're okay, TFA and Solo are very enjoyable at certain times, TLJ i flip flop on depending on, it has its moments. But surely better thought out choices for key positions and not rushing the production of the films out could have lead to products that would make a hell of a lot more money down the line. If their goal was the squeeze every penny out of the final trilogy then stick the franchise on hiatus for a decade I could understand some of the decisions made but it would have surely made more sense to really get people invested for future films by ensuring this trilogy was made to the absolute highest standard.

Most people I speak to feel similarly lukewarm about the new films. You get the odd extreme but I find that rare. For a franchise like Star Wars backed by a company like Disney surely okay-good depending on mood really isn't good enough? I don't understand why it's so hard to get right, Put the right people in place, draw from and expand upon the vast well of lore and resources like Marvel do, keep the good stuff (light v dark, lightsaber battles, beloved hero's established character traits/motives, visual/thematic tone etc) and mix up things people want to see changed such as plot structure, character origins, planet/environment design and focus on making the film as good as it can be. Not do near enough the opposite and worry about rubbish like 'suberting expectation or making the pace of the film move like the falcon' who cares? Get important stuff like character dialogue before you worry about s*** like that.

Didn't expect to type out an essay TL;DR Do you think Disney'Lucasfilm could have done better than JJ abrams (as a writer) and RJ for such an important set of films?

 

Michael Arndt was originally the writer for the entire sequel trilogy, but when he requested longer to write.. Lucasfilm/Disney dropped him and asked JJ to make a simplified version of his episode 7 script. It also had to use the sets which had already been built (specifically the star destroyer and first order sets) so they gave JJ an Alien 3 level challenge as a writer-director.



It's a miracle that The Force Awakens wasn't a disaster.

Kasdan was brought in as an afterthought (by JJ) to polish up dialogue and help with pacing.

Sadly, instead of staying true to what Arndt was going to do.. Lucasfilm put JJ in a position where he had to duct-tape together all the "cool" looking pieces of concept art into something cohesive. The film was written 100% with visuals in mind, and not plot. This is why everything feels so bare, and lacks the depth of Empire.




There was so much panic and rushing to get TFA done, that they gave Rian a blank slate as to what should happen in TLJ.. and that's where this trilogy got exposed as a charade.

It's a shame, because I really think Arndt was treating it with the same care that Lucas did (it's even rumoured that he used Lucas' templates for his scripts)

But yeah, they Disneyed it.

 

And that's the problem with the ST. AT least Iger recently admitted they pushed to hard and too fast. I am sure I said it elsewhere, but they shouldn't have had VII come out first. It should have come out when Rogue One came out, or even when TLJ did. They should have taken the time to do this right. Now its a disaster.
People are free to like TLJ all they want, but to suggest that it fits in nicely as a sequel to TFA is crazy. It doesn't. Allowing RJ to reboot the reboot is just crazy.

Sadly, I think JJ is in the same position now with IX that he was in with VII. He needs to make a damn fine film, but RJ threw out all of what he had set up (for better or worse).

And to answer the previous poster, I don't think RJ was anywhere NEAR qualified to write AND direct a film of this magnitude. Say what you want about KK, she has done an awful job hiring talent to write and direct up to this point. There were problems between her and JJ. There were problems between her and Gareth Edwards. She fired the two guys from Solo. She doesn't appear to be someone who is handling the pressure well, and her choices have been pretty bad so far. The only good choices I've seen are bringing in JJ (at least TFA was fun and it was as good as it probably could be with all the conditions he had placed upon him). Bringing in Ron Howard to clean up Solo was also a good choice, although he should have been the one brought in from the start.

Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing the new show "The Mandalorian" and I'm really intrigued by the guys from Game of Thrones. Hopefully they will be able to give us what we truly deserve: an awesome trilogy.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. It does all seem rushed. But that comes down to the reasons why Disney purchased the franchise. They know they can make a lot of money with Star Wars. And I think the reason for killing Han and Luke came down to saving money. There was major backlash when in the books they killed chewy and anakin solo. I wasn’t happy about Han dying in tfa, but thought maybe ford wanted out.

If the game of thrones guys are going to write the same way as in game of thrones, they’ll have to place their timeline in the distant future or past. At the rate they’re killing Jedi and sith now, nobody will be able to pass on what they have learned.

 

The GoT guys would be perfect to write within the timeline of the Jedi purge, they can kill off Jedi left right and center. Have those surrounding Jedi betray them ect.

I'm pretty convinced Ford just wanted out, so JJ's hands were tied on that front.

I think Disney underestimated the complexity of SW fans. We all have a tendency to make groups fit into boxes, and Disney just realized that there are many boxes that composes the SW fandom. The fandom is complex and it takes someone with a solid grasp of many aspects of what makes SW appealing to appeal to the masses. Miss even just one aspect and the product suffers. Miss 25 to 50% like TLJ did, and it's a disaster. Even if they hit with 75%, which is debatable, the loss of the other quarter means the story loses a cohesiveness that some fans will notice and then reject. Some may argue that you can't get 95+%, I say that given adequate time, passing the script to enough different fans within the industry, you absolutely can if you don't silence the critics. It takes more time, requires more effort, but some of us fans demand that time and/or effort. RJ may have put in as much effort into his TLJ script than Lucas did, but he didn't have the time and open mindedness to allow others to view it, make changes and accept constructive criticism. So the fans who are into SW for the component that TLJ has were satisfied to thrilled, the fans who found traditional aspects of the SW lacking, TLJ became barely tolerable to hated.

 

Slightly off-topic here, but I vastly prefer both of those deaths to Han's in TFA. Why? Well, simply put, they had impact. People were still lamenting and mourning Chewbacca's constantly throughout the books that followed---and it not only led Han to develop animosity towards his son (who he blames for Chewie's death), but also sets Han up for a legitimately compelling character arc for the duration of the war. That's how you economize a character's death in-universe: make it have lasting impact and create new avenues of the story. Have the death create a ripple effect.

But in the ST? Han Solo died, and it had the lasting impact of an underwater fart. Leia hugs a complete stranger, Luke barely reacts outside of chugging on green milk like a freak, and the only person even remotely moved or referencing it in later films is this scrappy junker girl we have no reason to believe would have a stronger connection to Han than either his wife or best friend.

This is why I'm happy that I'm not as attached to the OT as so many other people, otherwise this kind of thing would infuriate me.

 

I am attached to the ot, but when Disney purchased SW, I told myself that they may not follow the books. When I went to see tfa, I accepted that they took it in their direction. I wasnt happy about Han, but I didn’t speak badly about the movie. I still watch it. The other 9 movies to me had a more human feel to them. To me tlj is cold and lacks personally in which we came to expect from GL.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 20, 2018 ---

I can’t give ratings yet due to not enough postings yet, but your post to me is spot on.

 

I don't think I read anything that hit as close to how I feel about the treatment of the OT3. I honestly had a hint of a lump in my throat. I remember vividly how I felt at Chewie's death in the EU, and Han's death pales in comparison. Yes, JJ had his hands tied because Harrison Ford wanted out, but it still could have been handled far better. Yes, RJ was tied by how JJ handled it in TFA, but he has his own opportunity to make it right and failed miserably. Worse, is how he treated Luke's character then killed him just about as unceremoniously. RJ may have done a bit better for Luke than JJ did for Han, but he missed the opportunity to make Han's death relevant in a very easy way, through Han's best friend and his wife.

I think this is a big reason why a lot of fans feel both these writer/directors could have either used more time, assistant writers, and likely both. They missed their shot on legacy characters because they were too focused on the new and their own creations, trying to make their own legacy while ignoring the existing legacy of the SW universe. I think in a way, some fans will never come back and others will always struggle with the ST because of this. It isn't like you can get all three back to make it right again anymore either, so the single opportunity is completely lost and in some ways, that's unforgiveable.

 

I’m in the middle of reading the vong book series. I got chills while reading the part where chewy dies and still get them while reading Hans troubles copping with chewy s death.

You could be right about the legacy thing. They seem to be killing the past so they can move on to other stories. I mean Kylo ren wants to bury the past. Seems like they don’t care about the original characters. That’s why they play very small parts and have very low screen time.

 

Personally the ST has been a huge disappointment. I really enjoyed TFA, and I realized early on Han was going to die (remember he wanted George to kill him off in ROTJ and I figured the only way he agreed to come back was if they finally killed him off). Having said that, as several have noted, the death was handled poorly. That's on JJ AND on RJ. Seriously, no one freakin mourned Han. NO ONE. How sad is that??? That's just poor writing.

If I were in charge of LFL the GOT guys would do the Knights of the Old Republic Era. The Great Hyperspace War. Darth Revan, Lord Scourge. That stuff. So much dark awesomeness there.

I have to say, the best move by Bob Iger was deciding to slow things down. Get this right. No more "Han Solo: A Star Wars story" type films that are simply being done to appease the freakin Kasdans. Who cares about them? Especially the son. Make good, compelling stories. Make well developed characters. No more half baked garbage characters like Admiral "Hunger Games Refugee" Holdo. No more poorly written characters like Rose. And there is absolutely no way I'd allow RJ to get within 100 miles of Star Wars ever again. He obviously knows nothing about it, and cares nothing for it.

Finally, what's sad about all of this is the so called Story Group. What do those idiots do? Chuck Wendig stepped all over continuity in his comics and straight up said he didn't care about continuity. So why does the darn Story Group even exist?