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Is there a plan after all?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    They've also, more or less, use a LOT of Lucas' ideas. Especially of the estranged Jedi Master Luke who is essentially a Star Wars Captain Kurtz.
    https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a25306746/star-wars-luke-skywalker-character-changes/

    The notion they discarded Lucas' ideas is outdated and overplayed for something that is at best a misunderstanding and at worst an outright lie told to build a faux soap box.

    They took many of Lucas' ideas and reworked them for this trilogy.
    https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/201...e-lucass-influence-on-the-sequel-trilogy.html
     
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  2. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Have you seen what has gone on in the past 4-5 years with Disney and the franchise? They split with Lucas/Arndt (That's right, they divorced the man who invented SW) and rushed out Episode 7 with JJ and Kasdan writing it (JJ atleast got them to delay to December 2015). They had to bring in another director to finish Rogue One (for various reasons) as they weren't happy with his version of the film. They pretty much shot most of the Solo movie over after they fired Lord/Miller and brought in a veteran Ron Howard. They fired Colin Trevorrow from Episode 9 for creative differences and re-hired JJ Abrams. This doesn't sound like a company with the plan for the franchise as it has been misstep after misstep, as TLJ is the only movie where they didn't have to make a change.
     
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  3. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    Say what you will...I believe there's always been a plan.
     
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  4. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi Sentinel - Army of Light
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    Most Star Wars fans are disenchanted. I stop listening to their angry rants, and or reading mile long dissertations that amount to nothing but hate. George Lucas retired. I think some fans should take the cue. sadly Star Wars is in a bad place...
     
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  5. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I admire your positivity as I once felt that way. In fairness to SW, I see this happen all of the time in many TV shows that I watch. It is frustrating to get invested in a show, and then learn they really didn't have any plan after Season 2-3, as you can see when they start making it up as they go. They may have character arcs and ideas, but very rarely do I see something with a full planned big story arc.

    The Americans is one of those rare shows where they were able to pull it off from start to finish, where it feels like a complete story. Shows like The Walking Dead, Homeland, Bloodline, I ended up getting so frustrated with cause they either had no where to go with the story, or they went on with the story too long and the show jumped the shark.

    So please don't think I am being hard on SW franchise only, as it takes a REAL talented writer to have an arc planned out and have the discipline to pull it off. I just don't think JJ is the type of person who can pull something that like that off, as he is perfect for rebooting franchises, not completing them.
     
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  6. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Lightsaber? Granted yes we dont know how Maz got it. Yet.
    Han's relation to Rey? Never was one. TFA (Maz) and JJ himself told us this.
    Rey's relation to Luke? Turned out it was Rey's relationship with the Force.
    Snoke? I guess if you want to call it a Mystery box.
    Luke? Huh. TFA let us know that Luke ran away in shame. Many dont want that, but it was setup in opening crawl and by Han it was because of shame of failure.
    Rey's parents? They were nobodies.

    Again the 1st film of a trilogy is supposed to create the mysteries. Some get answered in 2nd film, some in 3rd and some will be deemed unimportant. Personally I find Snoke to be deemed unimportant. Some will disagree. The biggest thing is so many wanted all the answers to the questions to be 100% answered in the 2nd film.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 15, 2019 ---
    I dont recall that Lucas was selling Disney so he could then turn around and work for them full-time. Amazes me that Arndt is somehow more important to the mythos and story of Star Wars then Lawrence Kasdan. Really? They didnt change the story of Rogue One. It was execution of 3rd and final act. Same with Solo. Lord/Miller werent making the film they signed up for. As for Colin Trevorrow. The mistake wasnt getting rid of him, it was hiring him to begin with. They figured out the mistake before it cost them time, money, and effort.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I typed out replies to all these then realized you are using post-TLJ knowledge to solve most of these and that kind of just proves my point.
    And yes, Snoke in TFA is the absolute definition of a mystery box.

    The point is, he ONLY gave mysteries and nothing concrete.
    That is the issue.
     
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  8. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I never said that about Arndt, and I never said that about Lucas. Lucas was going to be a main consultant on the films (much like he was with ESB where he didn't direct). But my point is that they had a straight divorce with Lucas, meaning he had NO input so that is a huge difference that what was originally intended, even if he had a small role.

    https://ew.com/movies/2018/04/05/rogue-one-reshoots-tony-gilroy/

    Tony Gilroy says, "The movie was just in so much terrible, terrible trouble......" And I think there were more reshoots then just the final act, but it sounds like you were there during production as your answers seem so certain. ;)

    They pretty much shot the whole movie over, as that just doesn't happen in Hollywood so you're sort of making it sound like it's not a big deal. This doubled the budget and was eventually a big part of the movie being a money loser.

    Notice a trend? Sounds like you have to question Kathleen Kennedy's first insticts, as thank god she is working for a studio who can eat the cost of reshoot movies a second time to make up for her mistakes.

    And for the record, I like/love R1 and Solo, so I am not someone who comes on these boards to Disney bash. I just question many of her and Disney's decisions, and I still feel they never had any plan for the ST to answer the original question.
     
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  9. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    That is what the 1st film is supposed to do. Did people want 3 standalone films?
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 15, 2019 ---
    I for one never got the idea that he was going to be involved with the ST anywhere near he was with ESB. On ESB and ROTJ Lucas was far more involved then being "main consultant". From what I have seen in the Art of Books he was involved and more involved then I thought he was going to be.

    Did they make what they consider directors choice problems with the stand alone films, particularly with Solo? Yes. As for R1 no I wasnt there and neither were you. The length of the reshoots as no where near as long as Solo. Which is what I base the comment on. I know that Solo was basically a reshoot. I would question her decisions far more if she hadnt stepped in and fixed problems. We also dont know how the directors were chosen. Any chance that some of them were pushed upon her. My faith in her has never waned, because of her history and because she was hand picked by George Lucas.
     
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  10. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    No, a first film isn't supposed to just be unanswered mysteries stacked on top of on another.
    It can be, but doesn't have to be.
    What mysteries does ANH leave? None that aren't actually created by virtue of a sequel. It works solely as a stand alone film.
    TFA is structured in a way that treated preparing a sequel as more important than the actual ethos of the film itself.
    Part of that is just how JJ Abrams views film making and why I am most worried about his ability to do 9.

    The mystery box issue is that this desire Abrams has to the idea of the mystery box often undercuts any attempt at a clean story. Knowing what we know now, remove the mystery boxing around Rey's identity. Play it straight. It's a DAMN good story. It's unique in the movie canon. JJ didn't have to dedicate full scenes to playing the mystery of who Rey is. You can still keep it a mystery to a degree but every cut from Rey was like a ploy to drive the mystery. And of course, Star Wars being Star Wars fans...ran with it. Rey says she is no one. We then get how many scenes teasing this isn't the truth in some way? One would suffice to keep that mystery alive.

    Mystery and intrigue is good and necessary at times. But JJ put so much into the mystery of it that the "re-hash" of ANH became the default for TFA and it's why we have such a long running circle jerk around why TLJ did or didn't work, depending on your view.

    Now, let me be clear, I like TFA. I think it's still upper-tier Star Wars. It's good. It's dessert. It's sweet. It's yummy. But there's no nutritional value.
    I like TLJ for no small part because it did the heavy lifting, thematically. It gave the ST a purpose other than "Star Wars".
    All the answers are in TFA, because JJ is actually a good film maker despite my issues with his mystery box lovin' disposition and a good bit of that credit also goes to Rian Johnson for seeing the "playing field" so to speak and crafting a story that works from TFA to TLJ using the threads of what JJ did to create something solid.
     
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  11. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Jedi Commander

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    GL's relationship with the ST and ESB is simply not comparable.

    George Lucas was NOT a 'consultant' on ESB. Lucas wrote the story for ESB. He hired a screenwriter to write ESB. He hired ANOTHER screenwriter to write ESB when he didn't like the first screenplay. He hired a director. He hired a producer. As the head and owner of Lucasfilm - the company he set up - Lucas was in total control of ESB and oversaw it's creation from start to finish. They made the film he wanted making.

    He called the shots.

    They were never 'married'. Lucas 'divorced' himself from SW when he sold it. Thereafter, his involvement is purely at Disney's choosing and invitation. He was never officially a 'consultant', main or otherwise. He was 'consulted', but he no longer called the shots. And Disney were under no obligation to listen.

    A very different situation to his role during ESB.
     
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  12. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    GL had serious doubts that ANH would be any sort of success. Let alone the incredibly huge success it was. It had to work as a stand alone film.

    TFA even though it has these mysteries works perfectly well as a stand alone film, but it also has plenty of things for people to speculate about. Believe me for the most part having these items to speculate upon was a big improvement over what we had when we got hooked with ANH. All we had back then was Splinter of a Minds Eye, which was going to be the book only sequel for ANH because GL didnt think ANH would be a big hit.
     
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  13. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    We will never know exactly what his role was because it never got to that point, as he says here in an interview with Charlie Rose:

    The issue was, ultimately, they looked at the stories and they said, 'We want to make something for the fans.' People don't actually realize it's actually a soap opera and it's all about family problems - it's not about spaceships. So they decided they didn't want to use those stories, they decided they were going to do their own thing so I decided, 'Fine.... I'll go my way, and I let them go their way.'

    So the divorce happened AFTER they didn't want to use his ST stories, and you and I both know there is way more to the breakup that will never be discussed. Lucas essentially called them 'white slavers' in that same interview (which he took back a few days later), so there was definitely bad blood that occured during the divorce.

    As for ESB, I never said that he would have literally the same role. I was just saying after ANH, he stepped away from directing, he brought in Kasdan (after Leigh Brackett died) to write the screenplay as he was setting up Lucasfilm. Now there is no denying that he would have more influence in 1980 then he would in 2015, but the point is that he went from having 'some' role with Disney to no role.
     
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  14. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi Sentinel - Army of Light
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    I love George Lucas:p
     
  15. mecano

    mecano Rebel General

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  16. KeithF1138

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    So if he wanted why didnt he do the same with 7, 8 and 9 rather then sell to Disney? That was the fatal flaw of the PT. He did to much. Had he came up with the story in the PT and used other directors and writers they would have been better.

    As for his stories or not. The Art of Books kinda contradict the statements. It has art work of Luke in exile approved by GL. I do believe GL didnt realize how much of an emotional break it would be when he sold. It caused a couple of odd statements made to the press. If you watch TFA for instance his "it's not about spaceships" comment doesnt make much sense. The ST have deemphasized the spaceship elements compared to PT and who controlled the PT.
     
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  17. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think he wanted to sell because it was the right move at the time of his life (he is in his 70's now) and I believe he said it would also keep Lucasfilm going in respect for all the people he employed. Of course he probably didn't realize how tough it is to slowly move away from 'his baby' or 'his creation.'

    If you watch the Charlie Rose 2015 interview with Lucas, it now makes alot of sense that I didn't understand at the time. He said Disney wanted to make movies for the fans (I'm paraphrasing), and he said he didn't want to do that. After watching TFA, that movie is EXACTLY made for the fans as it is ANH 2.0, and Lucas probably wanted to make something more original. Yes, there are probably similarities from Lucas notes that are in the new movies, but I think Lucas was talking big picture story elements. That is what I feel is missing from the Saga movies, and ironically why I love the standalone movies.

    Which goes back to the original question in this thread, do they have a plan? If Lucas were making the ST, I believe he would have had a 'big picture' plan and he would have had a reason that the movies should be made. Sure he would have made some elements up as he went as he did some with the PT, and definitely did it with the OT. But both of those Trilogies have an overall arc, they have a purpose, and they have a narrative that makes it a complete story. The ST feels like standalone movies that co-exist, but not in a narrative sense where there is a point to them. I say this cause I can enjoy TFA and TLJ on their own terms, as their own movies, but once I start trying to marry them as a Trilogy, as a Saga, they just don't work for me. That tells me that the missing ingredient in the ST is that big picture arc, and I firmly believe Episode 9 will not suddenly tie them together.

    But as I said, I really love the Standalones and hopefully Disney doesn't abandon them. I think the Disney movies are better executed then the PT, so the standalones work in the respect that they don't need some big picture arc that works with the rest of the Saga. R1 is a War movie, and Solo is a heist movie, and they can function as that, and still tie in with the GFFA.
     
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  18. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    The irony here is that the movie that ostensibly "isn't for the fans" is TLJ. And we see what happened there.

    A VERY valid point.

    I honestly think they probably will pivot towards more stand alones and gauge audience reactions to see if there should be more movies (kind of like ANH). Because I agree, R1 is a GREAT movie and I was skeptical of it at first when it was said there would be no Force Users in it. And despite it bombing at the Box Office, the only thing I didn't like about SOLO was the inclusion of Maul (not because I don't like tie-ins I just really disagreed with LF bringing Maul back. No matter how cool he was, he should have stayed dead).
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Which should have been the template. Make movies that work alone to start a trilogy in case things falter....this was Universal's mistake with The Mummy 2017. They didn't have JJ "Reboot God" Abrams and the will of Star Wars behind it though.

    I disagree it works "well as a stand alone film" it works...okay. There's really no answers. There's a ton of early character work with little to no payoff for new characters, only for the elder statesman in Han, but even that requires knowledge of 4-6.

    I think we are veering off path a bit here but I think this is a fun worthy convo. If you want to continue, I'd be happy to in a different thread or through a message.
     
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  20. Legend66

    Legend66 Rebel Commander

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    I am glad we get JJ to finish the last movie because he would have had an endgame he can stick too , whereas if another director was going about it he would possibly changed said endgame and it wont flow as well as it should.
     
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