The Snoke Schism

Snoke in TLJ was a topic of heated discussion, and still remains a topic of debate. I've given him some thought and I think I figured out why.

Snoke was set up much like Palpatine in TFA, but with one caveat. Leia says Snoke got to Ben and was the cause for Ben turning to Kylo (certainly not an exact quote). I think that is where expectation sky rocketed for Snoke. It also inserted the idea that Kylo deserves our sympathy. I think fans bought in and now were awaiting for that idea to develop.

He was Palpatine-like, but he seemed to be further infused into the story, as TFA gave us a deeper look into Kylo than ANH (or any OT movie) gave us into Vader.

This was all fine and no one complained after TFA because fans expected the payoff. Take out Leia's line that Snoke got to Ben first, and expectations, I think, would have been reduced.

Then comes TLJ.

That set up in TFA had fans expecting something regarding Snoke. That got fans hyper active theorizing about him, and I agree with many that it probably got out of hand.

When TLJ comes and introduces us to Luke and Ben dynamic, we now have in the back of our minds that Leia line. Now we wonder what did Snoke do to push Kylo to make Luke distrust him to that degree and push that whole scenario over the edge.

So after TFA, Snoke was no longer merely Palpatine, he was Palpatine +, because he was involved in Kylo in a way Palpatine was never described as being involved with Vader. Snoke helped create Kylo. Now yes, in the OT we discover that Palpatine did the same for Vader, but in the OT we were not privy to that information. In the ST, we get that information but no explanation or exposition on how Snoke influenced or corrupted Ben.

So far, I don't think there was a major issue. Fans were waiting for the payoff with anxious anticipation. The problem happens when he dies, without the exposition or that Leia line having any deeper meaning. It's a loose end. Now maybe there's exposition in IX on that, but I'd say it's just as likely that there isn't.

Since then the debate has gone down many roads. Ideas on Snoke and his importance is still hotly contested.

I think at this point we're left with 2 big questions that demand answers by those who are unsatisfied with Snoke's arc. Those questions are where was he all this time? The other, what and how did he do to affect Ben this way.

I don't care so much about the first one, as a throw away line can explain that easily. The second one I am curious about, because it matters to the ST. The ST is built (at least in part) on our sympathy for Ben, his potential redemption, and that all swirls around his conflict with Luke. That is affected by Snoke involvement, which has yet to be explained except in the plainest broad strokes in TFA. A single line by Leia, but a powerful line that has sparked at least part of the fandom's curiosity of Snoke, his powers and his influence. It matters because the details of his involvement with Ben could determine just how much we sympathize with Kylo. Without those details, the sympathy, at least in regards to Snoke's involvement, is baseless beyond a very unspecific line by Leia.

My intention for this thread is not to stir the pot, but it's my understanding of feelings from parts of the fandom. I see both sides of the argument here pretty clearly. I think some just believe Leia and apply whatever influence to Ben that is needed in their mind that would or could drive him to his actions in the flashbacks of TLJ. Others need more.

Curious to hear your thoughts and see if my reasoning tracks for you, or clarifies anything at all.

 

I've posted in the past that I don't have much sympathy for Kylo. However, in my discussions with others in this forum, I see a lot of people do have sympathy for him. The sympathy seems mostly derived from that Leia line. Kylo is an abuser, but he's also a victim of Snoke, seems to be the premise. Thus Snoke is the ultimate abuser, and that I believe comes full circle back to Leia's line.

If Leia never says the line, then we assume Ben made his decision on his own without outside influence. Think Anakin if Sideous didn't manipulate but Anakin makes the same decisions to be Vader. We'd have much less sympathy for Anakin and without Leia's line, I think many would have less sympathy for Ben. The assumption is that Snoke had an influence on Ben, and then it's our imagination that creates how much of an influence that is, derived somewhat from their interactions in the movies. The problem I see is that we don't know what Snoke did to get to Ben. Did he appear in dreams? Was he disguised as the janitor and using some force suggestions on him? Was he disguised as a friend of similar age and was simply a bad influence? Did he somehow use the force to twist his mind, or make Ben do cringy things like kill an animal while trying to levitate it, then using the force to give him a feeling of satisfaction? I can come up with dozens of scenarios, but this part has not been explained. We don't know what Luke saw in Ben to make him take those steps, and we don't know what gave Luke suspicion to even look inside his nephews mind. We don't know if Luke himself was influenced by Snoke. We don't know if Ben did anything questionable in the hours, days , weeks, months just before Luke's intervention, or if it was just a feeling on Luke's part. Did Luke just sense it or was there an action that Luke based his decision on?

Throughout both movies there's are recurring attempts to make the audience sympathize for Kylo. His doubt and appearance of regret at at killing his father (though I was never sure if it was staged, Kylo acting instead of Adam acting). His hesitation and decision not to kill his mother, the look of pain when his wingmen make the shot. There are many looks throughout that give the impression he isn't lost, that there's still good in him, like there had been in his grandfather.

I think as viewers we're supposed to feel sympathy for him at least on some level. Maybe that's a reason why the movie doesn't work for some, is due to that lack of sympathy for Ben. Because if we feel sympathy for Ben, it allows us to better understand Rey's motivations, as well as others. Without that sympathy, Rey's actions don't quite work so well and seem even more foolish or out of character. Motivated more to move the plot forward than a logical reaction on her part. I think at least a healthy amount of doubt in Kylo's evilness is required, and for me, I don't think I'm feeling it to the same extent as others, and to quote Yoda "that is why I fail." lol

I see Kylo more akin to Joffrey from GoT then Vader. He seems to me to be an entitled aristocratic brat, gifted beyond imaginings, with family support who chooses wrong and is weak willed enough to allow himself to be led down a dark path, despite all the support and gifts life (the force, money, fame, family, love ect) has given him (granted some of this is head canon on my part, just my perception of things however).

The counter argument has to be that what Leia speaks of simply overpowered Ben (but I would argue that's head canon), and that those around him failed him on different levels. Han couldn't relate. Leia was over protective and made some bad decisions trying to shelter him (my head canon here) by not telling Luke right away. Luke wasn't properly trained or wise enough to properly support Ben. Under the pressure of his own doubts at his ability to build an academy, those doubts were made greater when he didn't have an answer to help his nephew (again, my head canon).

It all comes down to what Snoke did.

If a serial killer gets caught tomorrow and says he did all this because his mom or dad denied him candy one day at the grocery store, we won't have much sympathy. If he says he did all those killings because his mom or dad was a prostitute and/or his pimp and abused him physically as a child as well as sexually, we'll feel more sympathy. That's essentially Kylo, we just don't know which of those sad stories applies to him and we've filled the gap with our own head canon, or rendered it irrelevant due to lack of exposition. Thus we sympathize or we don't.

I think this argument holds true if you don't give those arguing this the benefit of the doubt. If you assume all people who want more information want every little detail, then you are not allowing for nuance. Some people for example, call on knowing where Snoke was all that time, from the OT to the ST. I don't much care because a throw away line can fix that easily (A couple examples could be, in a Jedi prison form the time of the Old Republic, the Emperor kept him there because he didnt' want the competition. Or, he was found by Thrawn just after Palpatine died, in the Unknown regions, on a planet that had not yet developed space travel , or ect... multiple ways to explain that). I'll give you that IX could offer some exposition, and that maybe once the series is done, maybe I'll concede that it was beautifully well done by with holding that information, but right now I feel dissatisfied, because I don't feel I can form a firm opinion on Kylo one way or another without that exposition.

However, that argument is counter intuitive to the opposite argument, the dismissive one that no exposition is needed, that those who want to know merely want to know every little detail... those fans are nitpicking. I think those details are important to the story, as it affects Kylo and Luke individually, as well as the whole Kylo/Luke dynamic. By extentions, the Luke/Rey and Rey/Kylo dynamic, as well as possibly why the force Chose Rey to counter his darkness. Kylo's story seems to be the driving force, while Rey's is the answering force, thus I feel I need to understand the force behind Kylo's motivations, and the events that led to and now drive those motivations to be able to appreciate the counter reaction from the Force to Choose Rey.

I hadn't thought of that consciously, but you're right, that is strange. As some have stated after, it may be due to our needing to look at this movie through Rey and Finn's eyes. If that's the case though, I feel JJ and RJ likely underestimated how attached fans were to the OT3, how hard it would be for parts of the fandoms to disassociate to those legendary characters. This is not fault of the part of Rey or Finn, its merely due to the legendary status of those characters. If that is indeed the intent, it would be cool if they had the footage to make a cut that had the OT3 as the main perspective.

I agree we had an answer for Rey. Personally I didn't have an issue with that answer other then it didn't explain how quickly and adeptly she's learned the force and skills within the force. I've mostly withheld my criticism of that because it's quite possible there will be more on that in IX. I'm aware there's a Force Download explanation in the books, I'm hoping JJ comes up with something better in IX. I'm prepared to be disappointed on that front lol.

As for the last part, I think you hit the nail on the head. Is Snokes involvement with Ben adequately explained? I think it only is if you allow yourself some head canon on how he influenced Ben as a child, or at least before Luke tried to help him. I think that's about the best compromise that we can find on the subject. If you allow your head canon to lead you to believe that Snoke darkened his mind and gave him dark thoughts, to whatever extreme works for you to take Kylo to where he is at the beginning of TFA, then it works. I also think that's a valid argument, to just accept that Snoke did and it resulted in Kylo's decisions. It does lack some depth, as in the nuance between how much was Ben's choice and Snoke's influence, but it does "work".

However, I don't think that accepting that that was good enough for some dismisses the need others feel to get more exposition, more detail into how, why ect... did Snoke do it and the OT3 reacted the way they did to Snoke's corruption of Ben. Because the actions and reactions could play directly into our suspension of disbelief of the events within the ST. For myself, I find the idea fascinating, that the Force could be used in such a way. It's a few steps beyond a mere mind trick, you're not simply numbing for a few minutes, but having a life long impact. I'd like the ST to explore that, because that power, if that's how it went down, would be a fascinating idea to explore. It brings a whole new nuance to the old saying "The Devil made me do it." lol. I'm not mocking it however, I think it really would be cool to explore, and I do think it does have an impact on the ST, because I'm sure there must be a resistance to it on some level.

It also plays into some old EU ideas, that Palpatine had corrupted the thoughts of the senate using the Force, as well as those around him as Emperor. I'm jus not sure if it's the same idea, and it seems at least somewhat different because if I remember correctly the Emperor was able to do this due to their proximity. I believe even Mara suffered that kind of influence. It being re-introduced, but now at long range I find fascinating. It could explain why the Republic was stupid enough to dismantle their military among other things.

 

I mostly agree with your first paragraph, the second thought I find there are some small leaps that could be argued are not in the movies. Or maybe I'm just missing something.

Snoke did something to Ben according to Leia, but we're not clear on what. I don't remember it specifically saying it turned him against his parents, unless you can find me a quote that says otherwise. I would suggest that that is an assumption, maybe a logical one, but still an assumption that isn't detailed in the movies. He had a home and purpose and chose another, mostly because of what Snoke did, whatever that was, because there is no detail of what that was. He chose Snoke over his family, and I think that's the key thing that isn't detailed or clear, at least not to me. I can accept that he did, I can even accept that he was fooled and manipulated, but garnering sympathy, or at least how much, for that decision requires details imo. I find it hard from my perspective to see how someone could have turned me against my family and loved ones, and I'm very curious as to how Snoke managed it. To what extent he manifested that power of persuasion.

Did Ben have a chance, or did Ben have a choice I think is my core question. Was it akin to mind trick where Ben did evil things by Snoke's suggestion, remembered doing them but didn't know he was being controlled? Or was it more Snoke telling him lies and Ben choosing to believe them? Again, context matters, because if Ben has been getting these messages since infancy, constantly being told his family didn't love him ect.. that matters. But the fact is all this is head canon, because we don't know how Snoke did it. We just know he did something. As for the EU, I don't think this explanation should be there, it should be in a movie. Kylo/Ben is not Vader and not treated like Vader, he's more Anakin in the OT. I think if you want viewers to have some sympathy for him, you need to add the details to his fall from grace to where he is. I feel like we're entering episode 3 without seeing Anakin in Episode 2. The lack of exposition on those details makes it feel to me like there is something missing. I can't quite sympathize with Kylo, because I don't really know what to sympathize with.

He believes his master and uncle tried to kill him. Did Snoke manipulate his perception of those events? A lot of questions surround Kylo is all I'm getting at. There are no specifics, and maybe that's intentional, maybe it's not, I'm not sure. I just feel after TLJ and all the subversions, that I'm once again being led by the nose with Kylo, being forced to make some assumptions, build some head canon, though not large, to make things fit properly together. I have a hard time making any determination on Kylo whether he can turn back to good or go all out evil, because I don't know the details of his choosing Snoke over his family. To me, those details are important.

As for Rey, I assumed Luke was her father, though I don't think I was fixed on that idea. I was open to whatever reveal and didn't mind her not having known parentage. I mostly thought Luke was her father due to the musical scores, the similar start on a desert planet, and that the movie ended with their meeting. Her link to the lightsaber too. Out of all the twists in TLJ, her not being Luke's daughter was one I didn't mind. I don't applaud it as some act of genius, I just see it as believable and acceptable. It's more of a surprise in the sense because Luke being Vader's son and Leia's brother in a whole galaxy seems amazing coincidence, and that coincidence has since become something attached to SW. In all that galaxy it makes perfect sense that the galaxy isn't that small and that everyone is not related lol. It's not genius, it's just a change on theme so something less complicated, more simple and normal and less 1 in a million chance kind of thing. Its mundane, not to down talk it, but it isn't wonderful, it's just the most likely answer instead of going for the fantastic. It's a subversion on those fantastical ideas we have associated with SW. So like I said, I find it acceptable, just nothing special.

I also agree in light of finding out she's not anyone's daughter, that the rest of the context within TFA changes, and it all works. I don't fault people for speculating and trying to tie things together. It's like trying to identify foreshadowing before the moment of its reveal. Sometimes you can, other times it catches you off guard. As for her being a ticking time bomb, I think that's arguable. Some people argue that she isn't all that powerful, others argue that she's all powerful, or OP. I haven't seen anything to suggest she's a time bomb. I have heard that she's the light to confront Kylo's darkness, and Luke says she's powerful, so for those who try to down play her power I find that strange. I understand it as being a counter to MS accusations, but I think they overcompensate by down playing her power. However, nothing about that suggests a bomb, but a weapon/solution with a specialized task. Luke was intended to be used as a weapon, and he subverted expectations in RotJ. I think Rey will likely do something similar. She's expected to face Kylo's darkness, negate it, and the assumption is by combat, with one or both their deaths, or by one or both changing and either joining the other or becoming something entirely different. All I'm trying to say is that it isn't at all clear what Rey is. I think there's an assertion of power, raw power, that's even said in the films. I don't know if that's beyond Kylo's or merely matching him. Going based on the movies, I'd say beyond based on their encounters, but not overwhelmingly so.

 

In a way, I think that's all many of us who don't connect with Ben/Kylo is a little acknowledgement that everything isn't there, that everything isn't clear. So often we hear that everything is there, there's a suggestion there that could be taken that we just don't get it, that we're not "smart" enough to pick up on things. I don't think it's that at all. I think a lot of disagreements on matters over TLJ would have been smoothed out had the fandom been able to concede on some points more often. Sometimes it's a matter of world view, sometimes matter of life experience, personal or otherwise. What I find frustrating about Kylo is that I want to like him, I just need it a little more crystalline. I have no issue that it works for you and many others, I've never argued that. I've only ever argued that it doesn't work for me and put down the reasons why, which usually amounts to exposition.

I realize when I'm trying to write my thoughts on this, I probably don't have the exact word. It's something akin to head canon, making leaps, but even as I write them, I know those words are not perfect. So I realize the sword swings both ways, as when someone reads me saying those words it triggers (in a minor way lol) as it suggests RJ failed, even if that's not what exactly what I'm saying. It's more, RJ failed for me, but I'm totally okay if it works for you. He didn't add enough exposition for me to be able to follow the bread crumbs and get to where you guys are at, because to me those details matter. Of course it's okay that those details don't matter to you, but it's nice to get at least some acknowledgement that you understand things are not crystalline and that's basically where our opinions differ.

I've never read EU, whether books or comics, while the movies were playing. Though I am sometimes curious about some of those details, I tend to delve into them after the main series is over. I've always felt the movies should stand on their own without that exposition. That's not just for SW, that's for most entertainment I watch. I tend to avoid spoilers more often than not too. Thanks for replying so concisely, I feel we reached at least some understanding here.

 

Yeah, I agree with you. There's probably a range on how Jedi could pinpoint the location of other Jedi. Probably a way to cloud their presence as well. Maybe even familiarity plays a role. Maybe he wasn't as powerful then, or maybe, and I'm just thinking about this now... maybe Snoke was Chosen after the darkside lost 2 (Sidious, Vader) of it's most powerful force users, just like Rey is Chosen in the rise of Kylo to meet his darkness. The possibilities are endless, it is a non issue and a single throw away line could make the whole thing irrelevant. Because there are so many ways to explain his existence, and he isn't a core character and more of a stepping stone for Kylo, it's not an issue.