Let's just talk Return of the Jedi

Return of the Jedi is the weakest of the OT as a stand alone movie. But it is a great conclusion to the saga.

 

This was always my favourite as a kid growing up. Maybe it is just that I remember when it came out clearly, although I was not old enough to see it in the theatre. I think I wore that VHS out more so than any of the others. I like Empire now mor whit back then ROTJ was my jam!

 

What was up with Chewie making that Tarzan scream when his was in battle on Endor? I has assumed since the film takes place a long long time ago that it would be well before Tarzan existed, so how would Chewie know to make his signature battle cry?

 

This is probably all George Lucas.

ROTJ, as great as it was, saw the first of George’s misfires at lame comedy that would later come to plague the prequels.

 

I've never understood the hate for ROTJ. Granted, it was the worst of the OT, but it provided me with my favorite Star Wars movie experience.
<Cue the flashback music>

I was 11 years old when ROTJ came out. My parents allowed my brother and I to skip school to attend an opening day screening. My favorite part came during the climax of the throne room duel:
Luke being fried with force lighting. His father torn between loyalty to his master and his love for his son. Vader versus Anakin.
The crowd grew anxious. People started yelling at the screen, "Do it! Do it!" And then Vader makes his move. He picks up the Emperor and throws him down the pit. The crowd leapt to its feet with a loud roar. People were giving each other high-fives. Others were hugging and I believe some even shed tears...hey, I was still a kid, so give me a break.

Anyway, because of my fond memories I'm willing to cut the movie some slack.

 

If you don't mind Ewoks, (personally I love'em!), then RotJ is a fantastic movie! It has a problem with the 2nd Act, where the story stops dead, but the 1st & 3rd Act are awesome. I particularly enjoy how Luke starts off like a cocky superstar, believing his own hype, and continues to teeter on the edge of darkness up until his acceptance of defeat before the Emperor.

As for criticism of the humor (and callbacks to earlier films and tropes) in RotJ, all of the OT are full of those and if you (=no one in particular here) don't like it in RotJ you're not allowed to like them in ANH or ESB either

 

While I love ROTJ, the biggest problem with the movie is the pacing (this was the same problem that plagued the PT). ANH/ESB have perfect pacing as the movies move for 2 hours without any parts that feel unnecessary. ROTJ has parts of the film where the movie grinds to a halt (the middle part with Ewoks feels like it goes on too long to pad the 2 hour run time). Not sure if ROTJ is missing Paul Hirsch (who edited ANH and ESB) but it really sticks out when comparing the 3 movies.

 

I just finished ROTJ and honestly, I'm really not sure that there is a pacing issue. I think that's something people say when they don't have much to say about not liking a movie. I think George's directorial decisions affect the film negatively. Insisting on Wookiees rather than Ewoks might have made the movie more appealing to some. Obviously this was a budget issue but, idk that seems like an excuse considering how successful the previous two films had been. They probably just wanted to sell toys. It is what it is. I don't have a problem accepting the Ewoks, I don't think there's a drag in ROTJ at all. And the final confrontation/space battle makes it all worth it.

 

It's been a little while since I sat down and watched the OT from start to finish, but this has always been my favorite in the series. Not saying it was the best one, just my favorite. I just think it's a very entertaining movie. I think the primary reason people hate on it is Ewoks. Some people have an irrational and biased intolerance for "kiddie" stuff. I would understand if there was no humor/cute stuff in the first two movies and the third one seemingly randomly introduced it, but that's not the case. Star Wars always had this stuff. It's a part of what it is.

 

Personally I just find it funny that a legion of Palpatine's "best troops" are the ones everyone points to when discussing how terrible Stormtroopers are at their job.

 

I've always thought of ROTJ as Star Wars "turned up to 11".
Although bigger isn't always better, and ANH and TESB certainly are better movies, you can't deny that ROTJ takes all the Star Wars ingredients and perfects them.
Jabba's palace is the Cantina X2, the space battle is probably as good as filming little models and layering up hundreds of individual pieces of film ever got, and the multiple-set-pieces-happening-simultaneously-as-a-climax was still fresh and has never been as effective in a SW movie since, IMHO.

I've got a soft spot for it because I was just at the right age to get hyped about it when it came out.
It's pretty out there for such a mainstream movie too - I mean, we're all so familiar with the story and the characters... it's hard to step back appreciate that the film kicks off with an attempt to rescue a pirate encased in a block of metal from a huge slug throwing a party...

 

What are people's thoughts on the cinematography in RotJ compared to ANH and ESB?

With ANH, there's some great iconic shots even though much of the staging/blocking was a tad flat but it was the first SW big budget film Lucas and crew did so I understand if not everything was capitalized.

With ESB, Irvin Kirshner and crew decided not to do Master Shots, instead going for a up close and more 'personal' approach to capturing scenes. Also, ESB seems to have done the best with the lighting, giving things a darker grittier look.

With the RotJ, I think with return of Lucas' control, we saw the more 'flat' staging and shots from ANH. The lighting too struck me as flat looking, not enough shadows and mood.

Thoughts?

 

I think ROTJ is a very bland looking movie, as the forrest of Endor (Northern California) is just that. I look at movie like Rogue One (which used a lot of outside shots) is much a better movie in terms of cinematography then ROTJ. ESB is still the best looking OT movie, but in fairness to ANH (it was done on a smaller budget) and they were much more limited in 1977.

 

For me RoTJ really pays off with the Vader/Luke duel and the ultimate redemption of Anakin, the emotional weight of that is a great culmination of the OT.

 

Interesting discussion, this. Welcome aboard, @Sundered Blips

Hm... thinking out loud, I don't believe George Lucas was ever particularly cinematographically apt, in any of the films he directed. To me, GL seems more interested in storytelling and special effects shots than cinematography, and he generally produce more interesting/beautiful shots with miniatures & CGI than in traditional filming. There's a couple of nice space battle model shots in RotJ, for instance. GL sometimes does powerful character shots (I seem to remember THX 1138 had some nice scenes), but camera magic doesn't appear to be his thing, really. That said, the Luke vs. Vader duel in RotJ is pretty sweet, even if it is cut together with a jumble of shots that doesn't quite fit (i.e. the story of the fight was edited down enormously).

 

Not sure if this is the correct thread so forgive/advise.

Lucas' original intention was for Luke to confront just Vader in RotJ and the Emperor was going to be the big bad of the Sequel trilogy. Luke was also supposed to go in search of the "other Skywalker" in the sequels - his sister Nelith (who ultimately becomes Rey). I don't know if she was supposed to be ahis twin or younger sister.

If Lucas had gone to work on the Sequels in the mid to late 80's what actress would have been good for the role of Nelith as a twin or younger sister?

Also, I have a recollection of reading that the Death Star II was also introduced late in the development. Was it a replacement for another super weapon ? Were Luke and Vader originally meant to face each other in the castle on Mustafar? If so, what were Leia, Han and the rebels roles in the story? What were the heroes going to be attacking?

 

The only two actresses I can think of who are the same age (I think) as Hamill are Jane Seymour and Erin Grey. My mind is blank on anyone else.

I can imagine Jane Seymour in the role of Nellith.

 

Return of the Jedi is my absolute favorite in the saga. I don't necessarily agree with the general consesus that it's the weakest of the OT, as I think it's the strongest when it comes to emotion and action, but I agree that it may be the weakest in its craft. Though I will say that it's always annoyed how Han is nowhere near as interesting as he was in the previous films as well as the Ewoks beating the Empire's most elite troops, but despite those issues, Jedi remains my favorite.

 

I think the sets look great - Jabba's Palace, the throne room, the hangar and the Ewok village are all believable and atmospheric, IMO.
The only set that falls short for me is the palace gate - I always thought that looked really obvious it was on a soundstage, I think it's the way Threepio's arm casts several shadows on the door, you can tell it is just studio lighting.
ROTJ does look a bit flat in places, and it's all of the location stuff. They had all those trees to play with, and they don't really do anything too interesting with the camera - like you say, it's all a lot less "personal" than what Kershner did in Empire, mostly just long-to-mid shots.

I agree that TESB has the best cinematography of the bunch. ANH established the basic aesthetic though - and I think that's what makes the whole thing believable for me. Fantastic things are happening, but it isn't treated in a fantastic way, it's more of a documentary style... Looking back, the choice of directors for TESB and ROTJ was perfect, because they were able to take that aesthetic and focus more on the emotion and the drama of the story - rather than bringing in established directors familiar with the sci-fi genre who might have been keen to put their own stamp on the look of the movies.




How do people feel about ROTJ in terms of is a an actual pay-off to all that had come before?
I think it went in the best possible direction it could have, in terms of how the Luke/Vader thing developed, which is part of the reason I am so fond of ROTJ - but does anyone actually dislike how things ended up? Like, did anyone out there just want Vader to be bad and Luke to just kick his ass and kill him and the Emperor?
I mean, as soon as we saw the meditation chamber reveal in TESB, I was open to the idea that Vader was actually just a fragile old man with human emotions and human problems underneath all the armour, so it always kind of made sense to me where it ended up going... but did anyone out there flat out reject that whole idea from the off, and feel a bit cheated that Vader really was Luke's father, and that he could even be redeemed?