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Were "fan expectations" the problem?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I personally never want to hear ANYTHING about "dudebros", "man babies", or bad SW fans ever again considering how the GoT fan base has behaved, particularly in this last season. I'm not sure if I have seen a more unhinged collective response than the one offered by GoT fans in the wake of The Bells episode.

    If the complaint is that the writing has gotten weaker after the t.v. series caught up with and passed the books, so be it. There is a noticeable drop off. But Dany's turn has got to have been the most telegraphed, most repeatedly foreshadowed, and relentlessly setup turn in the history of modern t.v. This is EXACTLY the development we were upset we didn't get for Luke's metamorphosis from ascendant Jedi to Master Jedi contemplating murder. GoT fans actually got theirs and they still lit the internet on fire with their rage.

    The same foreshadowing and setting up that existed for Arya, existed for Dany. Arya was postured to be a killer season after season, and she became it. And because Arya kills the NK no one seems to have a problem with the fact that this episode (and the one before it) were poorly written as well. But Dany makes the all but certain turn to rage and suddenly the series is ruined? Did anyone stop to notice

    • Dany is at her best when she is freeing people from actual slavery, because that is the thing that they come to love her for (a love she actually needs)
    • Dany is at her worst trying to exert authority over people who are not in bondage, because there is nothing else she has to offer for them to love

    And it's exactly why she chose "fear" as the basis of her rule. If you didn't see this weakness in her, you haven't been paying attention for seasons because it is all there in plain sight on screen, episode after episode. She isn't less of a tyrant than Cersei, she just has a better marketing brand, and is better equipped to enforce her tyranny. And if that messaging is a problem (that people that we like and to whom we align can STILL be the cause of great evil) it says more about the audience than it does the writers.
     
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  2. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Agreed.

    I've read a lot of complaints that the "writing is bad". God, that's worthless criticism from armchair "writers" who haven't penned anything since they left high school.

    One specific complaint about the "writing being bad" is that the twists are too obvious. Dany's turn was too telegraphed. Arya's setup was too laid out (or, depending on the fan you're talking to, not set up enough, but that's a different story).

    I think there are a couple reasons we're seeing a lot of issues with "subversion for subversion's sake", but I think one of them is that we're simply collectively better watchers of stories now than we were when Season 1 aired. Ned's death was absolutely bonkers at the time but now viewers would be far less surprised when something similar happens.

    Further, as a story progresses it starts branching out into a multitude of possibilities (think season 3/4 era). But as it draws to a close, it is likely to start winding down to more predictable outcomes. We're not branching out anymore, we're wrapping up. Generally that's not a bad thing, but people haven't experienced that more predictable tone with GOT before.

    Basically, I don't think we could ever have our "No I am your Father" or Red Wedding moment again, because we're always expecting the unexpected now. The internet can be a cesspool of fandom, but every now and then you're bound to see some theory become the truth. If you're deeply enough involved, you'll likely never watch a movie again that doesn't end up like a fan theory you already read online.

    I feel like it's a pretty recent phenomenon, too. Sure there were twists in movies previously, but consider the early to mid 2000s. Lord of the Rings, a series that had wrapped decades earlier and had multiple adaptations, was winning left and right. The Star Wars prequels, a trilogy with a foregone conclusion, were also popular. Heck, a lot of movies had novels or spoiler filled video games hit shelves weeks before the film itself came out.

    We've prioritized the storytelling experience over the appreciation of filmmaking and theater-going. And storytelling is fine, but I think there's a bit of an imbalance now.


    Sorry for the rant, just realized how long and disjointed this might be... :p
     
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  3. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I honestly don’t understand this statement. Maybe you can expand a bit more? What does one have to do with the other?

    Personally, I feel this elevation in critical discourse is just a natural extension to “everyone’s a critic”. People simply feel how they feel about a thing - as they always have. They just happen to have flashier instruments in their toolboxes now to justify those subjective assessments and a larger audience to direct them at.

    What I think is much more concerning is how reflective it is of the growing dissatisfaction and lack of fulfillment people have in their personal lives. They’ve become so disproportionately precious and impassioned about their escapism. They feel such colossal ownership over these fantasies - these make-believe worlds - these distractions from reality. It’s part of their identity now. A perceived mismanagement of their beloved dreamland is interpreted as a personal affront.

    In the 1960s, in the wake of stoic mindsets stemming from a prior generation raised through a great depression and two world wars, came the concept of the ‘inner child’. This practice of putting aside the onus and obligation of adulthood once in a while and recapturing that unburdened attitude of childhood. Seems to me maybe some folks these days would do well to get back in touch with their ‘inner grownup’ . . . . . . . . says the guy frittering away his time earnestly discussing a children's fantasy series :D
     
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  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Basically, it's the idea that people feel entitled to experiencing a story firsthand now, and that the majority of a film/show's value comes from the feelings one gets on the first viewing.

    It's why people get into literal fights outside of movie theaters if stuff is spoiled, or how people try to police others' twitter accounts because they don't want something revealed.

    And I get that there is definitely something fun to be had in the novelty of experiencing a movie completely unspoiled and having all sorts of wild crazy twists- but it's starting to affect how movies are actually made. Audiences are getting smarter, and filmmakers have to either try hard to come up with increasingly compelling narrative twists, or just subvert expectations for the sake of it.

    Basically, I don't necessarily think these are cases of bad writers, but writers stuck in a system that is gradually becoming more and more difficult to produce impressive results in.
     
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  5. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    I have always felt that fan expectations have played a large part for many who disliked TLJ. The recent uproar with how GoT ended further confirms the overall state of fandoms today. Fans are becoming more and more bitter and upset if stories they are following or characters they enjoy don’t end up the way they envision. We have seen it with TLJ and now we are seeing it with GoT.
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Yup
    Ownership vs Viewership
     
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  7. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I think the uproar over GoT demonstrates that the disconnect between writers and audience is not exclusive to Star Wars. And though often it was attributed to "fan boys" and "misogynists" and people who needed to grow up because it was just a movie, seeing the same behavior and complaints crop up in GoT upends the narrative talking points (i.e. it's just a loud minority, they just didn't understand the messaging, people loved it). I'm glad it happened.

    TLJ was said to have great visuals but a terrible story
    GoT last season was said to have great visuals but a terrible story

    TLJ was said to have transfigured characters in a way that ran entirely counter to all their previously established development
    GoT last was said to have done the same

    There are many other parallels but these help illuminate what I think is really driving things: poor writing. This last season of GoT was probably the sloppiest I've ever seen. Particularly the last episode. The visuals were stunning, but the character pivots? Entirely unbelievable in some cases (just like TLJ). And the fan reactions (and Hollywood response) were both predictable. Fans petitioned for a new Season 8 (like fans petitioned for a new Episode 8) and Hollywood is deploying the same tactics against fans of GoT that they did against TLJ (almost part and parcel).
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I don't watch GoT; I grew bored long ago - just a fantasy Dallas to me.

    But with TLJ...I can't relate to the idea that it is bad writing. At all.
    I've examined and written quite a lot on its writing; more than I have any other Star Wars film.

    TLJ isn't my favorite Star Wars film, but it's one of the best written Star Wars films when I break it down and analyze it piece by piece.

    I know that this is subjective in whether it's aesthetically good, but in terms of technicality...TLJ's script is an insane undertaking that is more complex than anything I've ever seen in any film story. It's really quite insane how interconnected and woven the whole story is with itself and with half of the entire saga.

    In terms of fans being mad about crap.
    Ahem.
    Prequels, The Sapranos, Lost, Star Trek, um...Star Trek, Star Trek, and Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Prometheus, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, Endgame, Indiana Jones Crystal Skull, ...

    Basically nearly anything that has had a following that comes back, or anything that has had a following and ends is highly poised from the onset to result in pissed off fans.

    Why?
    Two reasons:
    1. We consume movies and serials in such addictive passion like never before in history because we can.

    2. Audience sizes are insanely concentrated now compared to any other time in history, and talking about the shows online is the given. Before, you had 50 to 100 million viewers back in the 'stone age' 60's and 70's, but now you have 20 to 40 million as a major title and a huge chunk will take to the internet and rant or rave quite loudly. Hate spews both ways for and against and memes explode.

    I used to say I hated what religion and politics did to a conversation. I'm now starting to add films and TV shows to that list.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  9. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    IMO that's the problem of the movie. The best movies are mostly following a simple structure: An A plot and a B plot.

    Just look at TESB (considered to be the best Star Wars movie). The A storyline is Luke training to become a Jedi, while the B story is Han's, Leia's etc. adventure. It's easy to follow.
    In TLJ we got four storylines! That's way too much. Because of that the pacing and build up is suffering, something what makes a movie exciting.
     
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  10. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I don't agree here.

    For one thing. Basically, that's kind of a setup for any Star Wars film to be slid into being "too complex" because they all follow a chiastic narrative structure, so by the very fact that we have Kylo and Rey bouncing off of Anakin (one whole trilogy) and Luke (one whole trilogy) motifs makes it already far more complex than anything previous. We've never had this level of story attention to the antagonist and protagonist at the same time in the same trilogy before.
    That's pretty much something akin to saying that the narrative structure of Star Wars is just crap in general. Perhaps, but it's the backbone of the saga style.

    As to ESB, however, I can't really agree that it was a simple plot. The surface is rather simple, I suppose, but honestly, for its time it wasn't simple at all.
    That was actually one of the things people remarked about it at the time in both favorable and unfavorable opinion: that the story was fractured and complex.
    Most stories at the time followed one main plot at the time; not two, and definitely not space films, or adventure films, and definitely not without the lead in one of those plots.
    ESB had its main protagonist in about 30% of the film's run time, and while that itself isn't unusual, it is unusual that the lead role did this almost entirely separated from the supporting cast for most of the film.

    There were ensemble casts with multiple plots (American Graffiti, Reservoir Dogs), but you didn't see Lead role stories with multiple plot lines, and again...definitely not ones where the Lead isn't in whole chunks of the other plot lines.

    Hamill has remarked on it several times over the years in interviews; how odd it was to work that way - for months, being cut off from Ford and Fisher, and often being the only actual actor on the set.

    No one made stories like this back then; it was a very bold jump to jump around like this in a major block buster film, and only someone like Lucas could have been so bold to throw an A/B schism plot out, and he probably only could because he had done something somewhat similar before with American Graffiti and pulled it off with acclaim.

    If he had taken money from the suits instead of Lucas funding it himself, I don't think (and Kurtz has talked about this) that the story would have been allowed. As soon as their money was involved, I'm rather sure that the board would have insisted that the lead and supporting actors spend more time on screen with each other.

    There's only one film I can actually think of that does something as drastic as this in keeping major players apart from each other through a film, and that's the Fifth Element. Dallas never actually has any screen time with Zorg; they never meet. They never battle. Nothing. It's a pretty crazy story arc to attempt.

    Anyway, I can't really agree that the "best movies are mostly following a simple structure", because if that were true, you'd have basically...well...no Quentin Tarantino, for one thing, no American Graffiti, Magnolia, Traffic, Go, Love Actually, a bunch of Woody Allen's films ... just a bunch of films and artists, basically, not to mention Empire Strikes Back itself, which was not a simple film at its time.

    And having 4 plots is not unheard of, and it has been used in films perfectly fine, and I don't agree about TLJ - I loved it, and didn't find it to be too much at all.

    Also, The A storyline is Rey training, the B storyline is Rose and Fenn's adventure (which is a mix-mash of prequel and ESB), the C plot is Kylo is wrestling with his feelings and confronting his status quo (hello there little orphan Anakin ala TPM & AotC), and the D plot is the Rebels being chased all over which is a mixmash of ESB and TPM (most of TPM's main thrust is Padme on the run until victory at the end).

    And through all of this, if anything happened one way in the iteration before, it goes the other this time around (e.g. Padme convinced support for the alliance while on the run, meanwhile Leia notes that no one was going to answer their call for help while on the run, etc...).

    I didn't find this too hard to follow. If it would have been; I would have absolutely been lost watching Pulp Fiction.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #450 Jayson, May 22, 2019
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Common convention for sequels at the time were for them to essentially be carbon copies of the original. That Lucas had intended to meddle with a winning formula at all probably would have run him into a wall. That he used his personal fortune as collateral and purposely went the unexpected route, when he had ever practical reason not to, earned my unending respect.
     
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  12. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Ding!
    That's one thing that earned some respect for me with RJ.
    He took note of that, took it to heart, and really swung for the fences in just really going for it - regardless if it was typical, expected, or not.

    I really enjoy the thought of the middle film being the odd-ball in Star Wars. :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  13. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Rotten Tomatoes is continuing its effort to combat trolling. 1st they said they made some sort of adjustment after The Last Jedi before Black Panther.
    Then Rotten Tomatoes stopped taking audience reviews before a movie released right before Captain Marvel released and delete a huge amount of troll reviews.
    Now they have a new verified review process to filter out people who they cant verify have actually seen a movie.

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...erified-audience-ratings-fight-trolls-1213036

    Interesting that these big moves all came about before or right after films that a certain segment is prone to attack. In this case it is right before Aladdin release which is likey to get attacked based on the races/religions of many of the actors.
     
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  14. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Or just another round of "ruining my childhood!". :p :rolleyes:

    Also; I still don't like RT's ratings because they have poorly formed data.
    It's not a bell distribution that you should find from well formed data sampling; it's a mixture of flat and polarized - mostly flat, with a bit of spiking at the bottom and top of the scale. If anything, it's basically the opposite of a bell curve...which is...not good. As a statistically, and analytically minded individual...yes...I check and care about this kind of nerd s__t.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  15. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    Even Avengers Endgame, a fan favorite, has the fans who envisioned a different ending for Captain America (but otherwise loved the film),spew vile about the films ending for him.
     
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  16. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    I have found that describes a vast majority of general public reviewing things. I see it on Amazon all the time, even when looking at non-controversial items/books/movies. Amazon uses a 5-star scale and the solid majority of reviews fall in either 1-star or 5-stars. My anecdotal experience tells me 2-stars is the one hardly ever used.
     
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  17. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Of an individual title, sure. But that shouldn't happen when you pluck hundreds or thousands of random samples and run a histogram.

    The best curated data that I've found is metacritic and imdb.
    IMDB is worse than metacritic because IMDB runs high by 1.5ish points, but still has a bell curve, meanwhile metacritic has a good general bell curve.

    If you don't see a nice curve; you're looking at a poor polling system. Basic statistics. :)

    That said, I've always said the real value is what polling system most frequently aligns with your taste and opinion. It doesn't much matter what their polling system is if you tend to agree with it in taste. That's more important, because that means you personally can trust a review score from there for yourself.

    The bell curve just means it's more reflective of a random sampling of the general population it is sampling (be that critics, fans, or general audience).

    For instance, we can't say the general public liked or disliked something based on metacritic. We can only speak of critics. And IMDB only tells us about users of IMDB, which tends to be people who are into films a bit more than the general audience, while RT often tends to have quite a bit of enthusiastic fan responses, and internet/social media trend responses.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #457 Jayson, May 25, 2019
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
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  18. Matt_T

    Matt_T Rebel Official

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    I can't speak for anyone but myself, but "fan expectation" wasn't my problem with TLJ; a poorly written storyline was. Plot holes, poor humor, poorer tone. A meandering, trollish trainwreck from scroll to credits. But hey, that's just me!!!!
     
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  19. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Don't worry, it's not just you. ;)
     
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  20. GingerMook

    GingerMook Clone Commander

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    While TLJ isn't my favorite Star Wars movie, I rewatched it last week and enjoyed it more than I initially did in December 2017. I think there was a sense of certain "fan expectations" in regards to Luke that weren't quite met, but I enjoyed that aspect of the movie. I admired Rian Johnson's work in challenging these characters, giving them complex stories and motivations.

    My major gripe with the story was the Resistance plot. I didn't much care for it because this trilogy didn't really give me a reason to feel connected and compassionate about the Resistance itself. I thought the Finn/Rose plot was dragged out and could have been cut short by quite a bit (to leave room for more of the Force plot...or even the First Order/Hux). Although I like Rose as a character, I thought her presence was somewhat wasted.

    Although, I did like that the Resistance was drastically reduced by the end of TLJ. Johnson found a way to give it its biggest challenge yet!
     
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