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Did Han shoot first?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by Jaxxon, Mar 20, 2019.

?

Who shot first?

  1. Han should shoot first

    55 vote(s)
    75.3%
  2. Greedo should shoot first

    2 vote(s)
    2.7%
  3. Who cares? *old man grumbling*

    16 vote(s)
    21.9%
  1. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Han leaving Leia behind makes the change in the SE even worse and contradictory. Btw it "ruins" his character arc in ANH because it doesn't match with the rest of the movie. That's the point.
     
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  2. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    If you don't shoot first your last - Ricky Bobby
     
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    This makes no sense to me. Han didn't shoot Greedo in self defense in the SE. Both shot their weapons at the same time. Only Han was lucky. Nor did I need Han shooting first to substantiate his reluctance to rescue Leia. Han is just Han. Even if he had shot Greedo in self defense, this would not have erased his reluctance to rescue Leia, his greed and his reluctance to fight with the Rebel Alliance. To hang Han's ambiguity over that one moment in the Mos Eisley cantina is ridiculous to me, considering that Han did (or did not) and said other things that supported his ambiguous nature.

    This is why I find this hangup over whether he shot first or not ludicrous and infantile. I'm beginning to wonder if this is all about the "cool factor" in regard to Han's character. Then again, I've noticed that the "cool factor" has played a major role in many fans' opinions of the franchise's characters.
     
  4. FN-3263827

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    if it doesn't matter, then why did George change it?
     
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  5. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    That's a good question. Why did he? I found his decision to change this scene just as irrelevant as the complaints about the change. I'm sorry, but I found his reluctance to help Leia escape an execution more morally dubious. The cantina scene seems more like some attempt to add some "cool factor" to Han's character. It always has.
     
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  6. Matt_T

    Matt_T Rebel Official

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    I saw in a red carpet interview with GL where he mentioned off-handedly about changing that scene so Solo "wouldn't kill someone in cold blood..." and the backlash the edit received, which always confused me. If I'm looking down the barrel of a gun, being quicker on the draw (or a better shot) is an act of self-defense, not cold-blooded murder. So the fact GL mentioned killing someone in cold blood as a reason was disappointing. Throw in the aforementioned "how could a trained bounty hunter miss at that close range" angle and the revision really becomes quite silly. So in my case I choose to believe my head cannon.
     
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    There's a time for a fair firefight and a time for a stylish display of character befitting our favorite space pirate. Han's taking the first shot is funny, stylish and 100% Han Solo. Changing the scene is maybe just a tad too much overthinking.
     
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  9. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    lucasing.png

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    That's great. And wildly accurate. Maybe too accurate...
     
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    Why are so many people still hung up over this . . . this scene? Why get so hung up over a minor scene over whether Han shoot first or not? Not only am I talking about many fans, but also Lucas. I found his reluctance to rescue Leia from the Empire more interesting.
     
  12. Jayson

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    Because, for many people, including Lucas, this scene is a defining aspect of who Han starts as; who and what he is at first.
    And the Schrodinger existence of this scene determines which reality of Han is the case in perception.
    A cowboy hero through and through, or a pirate with a heart of gold buried beneath?

    If you don't find this of value, nor care; cool.

    But if you just want to know why; this is why.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I didn't have time to expand on this, and mostly before I wanted to stick to just the reason as to why this is meaningful to folks.

    Now, I'll take this a bit further and go into my opinions on the matter.

    The situation of Han being reluctant to help Leia isn't all that defining.
    It defines where Han is in relationship to these people he doesn't have a personal relationship with, and where he sits in terms of allegiance to governments and authority, but it doesn't define him in terms of his moral bearing as either a hero or anti-hero at the onset. It does...ish, but it's not the push that makes or breaks the definition.

    Han, no doubt, turns into a full hero along the way through the films, but there's disagreement whether or not he starts there.
    To Lucas, yes. He decided at some point that Han doesn't start as an anti-hero and move on to becoming a hero - a black mark that flips to white.
    Instead, to Lucas's decision along the way, Han should always be a pure hero, and to Lucas, pure heroes don't shoot first.

    Now, disregarding the fact that even the Duke, whom Lucas cites as not shooting first, does shoot first in nearly the exact same style of situation...


    ...and the type of character who doesn't shoot first is more like the icon of the Lone Ranger.
    I say, like the icon of the Lone Ranger, because even the Lone Ranger shoots first - he just shoot guns out of hands instead of killing people (because...kids).


    Now, the penultimate good western cowboy is the parody character Rex O'Herlihan from Rustler's Rhapsody
    166191_large.jpg

    He's so squeaky clean that the entire movie is built around how squeaky clean he is as a TV Trope, and builds up to examine what happens when too squeaky clean cowboy's end up in a showdown.

    Except. Even here, the most squeaky clean you can get (and corny...and hilarious) for the cinematic cowboy icon, the rule isn't that the good guy can't shoot first.
    The rule, as it is stated in the film is...
    "Since we're both good guys, neither of us can draw first."

    That is the classic western rule.
    The Duke follows it, the Lone Ranger follows it, The Rifleman follows it, and even the parody of westerns follows it (so does James Kirk in the first couple of seasons of Star Trek...which was basically in many ways a western in space).

    So...even by the classic trope and icon that Lucas is trying to identify with, he's remembering incorrectly.
    Which happens.
    We're all used to how everyone incorrectly remembers the iconic scene of how Darth Vader tells Luke that he's his father. Even James Earl Jones cited it wrong and he's the one who read the line to film.

    It happens. We incorrectly recall something and what we're now actually recalling is our impression of that thing.
    Lucas' memory appears to have turned "Never draws first" into "Never shoots first" over the years.

    Now, that said.
    This in itself doesn't determine if Han is the anti-hero or hero.
    Clearly the Lone Ranger is just a pure hero and he shoots first constantly.

    It's not only this scene which actually defines anything. It's the way in which Han as a total package carries himself and interacts over a few scenes.
    However, the Shooting scene does pull the biggest weight to determining whether he is an anti-hero or hero at the beginning by consequence of what the other scenes tell us, and the fact that only the Shooting scene was altered.

    Let's take a dive and look it over.

    Firstly, he's a liar and not that smart; but he's a hustler.
    Remember that line about the Kessel Run? Everyone regularly thinks that Lucas was ignorant on the term "parsec", and it doesn't help that Lucas eventually decided to run with that impression and just expand upon the idea of it being a valid statement.

    Well, that's not what was in the script.
    Capture.PNG

    Lucas knew what a parsec was. HAN didn't.
    Han thought he was being impressive.
    Ben and Luke's little reaction shot after Han says it, however...simply failed to connect to audiences in the way that the script actually states.
    If you rewatch this moment knowing that the script states that Ben thinks Solo's an idiot for getting the use of parsec wrong, then you can actually catch the subtle facial expression movement on Sir Alec Guinness' face. I'm not sure if he thought it was supposed to be a close up shot and dialed down the telecasting of the expression, or what happened, but you can see it's there - just so muted and distracted by having two people in the shot to look at that you easily look it right over.



    So firstly, Han talks out of his "backside" constantly and will say and do whatever to get money.

    Is that what Heroic Cowboys like the Duke do?
    No. They lie, but they lie when it's a ploy to trap bad people.
    They don't lie to barter and swindle.

    Usually, Good Cowboys intervene when they witness someone swindling someone in a barter.

    So...
    Anti-hero: 1
    Hero: 0

    Now, about this bit with Princess Leia.
    The thing with this is that even good 'ol boy Cowboy heroes like the Duke (whom, by the way...wasn't that "good" several times), were crass, ornery, and reluctant heroes who didn't see any reason to get involved without there being something in it for themselves directly to make it their issue to concern over.

    Take for example, Rooster Cogburn.

    "Because of his drunkenness and questionable use of firearms, aging one-eyed (wearing a distinctive black eye patch) U.S. Marshal Rooster Cogburn (John Wayne) in the Indian Territory (future Oklahoma) has been stripped of his badge by Judge Parker (John McIntire) at the territorial capital of Fort Smith, Arkansas for excessive violence fatness and drunkenness, complaining he had "gone to seed". But he's given a chance to redeem himself after a shipment of highly explosive nitroglycerine is stolen from a transporting troop of United States Army cavalry. Rooster agrees and eventually tracks the outlaws, led by Hawk (Richard Jordan) and his gang, along with Rooster's former scout Breed (Anthony Zerbe - who had earlier betrayed the Cavalry troop escort to be ambushed at a creek crossing by Hawk's cutthroats), to a church mission at the remote settlement of Fort Ruby in the Indian Territory. The village had been overrun earlier by the gang who camped overnight plying the Indians with liquor and gambling, who then killed an elderly missionary preacher who protested, Rev. George Goodnight (Jon Lormer) and a number of the local Indians. The Reverend's spinster daughter, Miss Eula Goodnight (Katharine Hepburn), wants to join Marshal Cogburn to track the criminals down, becoming his unwilling partner along with her student Wolf, the son of one of the deceased Indians, who aspires to be one of the first Indian lawmen and United States Marshal."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooster_Cogburn_(film)

    This is actually, fascinatingly, quite similar in many interesting ways to the chemistry between Luke, Leia, and Han in ANH.
    It's a little antagonistic in relationship between the leading lady and leading man, and then there's this side-kick character who's bright and doughy eyed about running off to be a hero. The difference being that we shuffle the priority of the characters around so that our main focus is Luke instead of Han (although, I argue that point personally, because ANH is almost more about Han than Luke if you look at character arcs and momentum...but that's a different tangent).

    There's even quite an interesting similarity between Miss Eula and Leia from the film's perspective.
    (The audio's a bit out of sync, but it's the best I could find)


    Not only is she a "blue blood" (as the trailer says), but she speaks with a rather familiar Transatlantic Accent that drove Fisher crazy trying to do.

    So, just the nature of not wanting to help someone out until there's a gain for themselves, or they're pushed into it, doesn't mean they're not a hero out-right.
    It does, however, yes, cast them more a slight bit toward possibly being an anti-hero, but usually in the "cowboy" trope days it meant that they were a reluctant hero and not an Anti-Hero.

    So, that comes down to

    Anti-hero: 1
    Hero: 1

    We went over the gun bit above.
    That's not exclusive to either the Anti-hero, or the Hero.
    Both shoot first. The difference is whether or not they drew first.

    Well, Greedo clearly drew first. He had a gun pointed at Han the entire time.
    While Han's reaction is anti-hero in our minds because we're all commonly incorrectly recalling the classic "good guy" trope, the reality of the trope is that it's about who drew first.
    This scene is basically a beat variation of the Big Jake scene, and Big Jake, well...he's not really a hero. He is, but he's definitely right on the borderline of anti-hero.
    Big Jake is essentially the John Wick of its day.

    "In 1909, there is a raid on the McCandles family ranch by a gang of ruthless outlaws led by John Fain. They massacre the ranch hands and kidnap Little Jake, the grandson, leaving a ransom note and heading back for Mexico, where they have been hiding out. Martha, the head of the family, is offered the help of both the army and the Texas Rangers in hunting the gang. She replies that this will be "a harsh and unpleasant kind of business and will require an extremely harsh and unpleasant kind of person to see it through." In consequence, she sends for her estranged husband, the aging Jacob "Big Jake" McCandles, a near-legendary gunfighter who wanders the west with his Rough Collie, simply named Dog."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Jake#Plot

    So basically, it's a stale mate on face value. You can call it an anti-hero point, but you can also call it a hero point because all classic Good Cowboys regularly shot first; they just didn't draw first.

    However, and this point is rather a bit crucial.
    Han's attitude certainly falls more in line with an anti-hero during this scene than it does a pure hero. He's more like Big Jake, and Big Jake is "an extremely harsh legendary gunfighter who wanders the west", and calls his partner, a human, "Dog".

    That moves the inaction of this moment toward anti-hero.

    Anti-hero: 2
    Hero: 1

    So, at the beginning, in Act 1, we're looking at a character who is an Anti-Hero with a dash of hero in there.
    And that's the motivation for later on.
    Later on, he flips on this and that tiny bit of hero buried inside is pushed out and he goes full hero, effectively "saving the day" for Luke.

    Now, if you flip this around so that Greedo shoots first, disconnecting the link between Han and the Cowboy Trope of being drawn on first, but being the first to shoot, then you force the scene to go into the incorrect memory of the good cowboy, the myth of it.
    You shoehorn it the other way around so that he talks like an anti-hero, walks like an anti-hero, but because he waits for Greedo to shoot first, isn't an anti-hero.

    He's just a reluctant hero.
    Anti-hero: 1
    Hero: 2

    ...Which is the same thing that Luke is in ANH.
    So, we end up with TWO reluctant heroes if Han shoots second.

    As such, I don't see Leia's escape and Han's initial position on it as pressing upon his definition of whether or not he's an anti-hero or hero archetype.
    This one scene, however, because it was altered, does.
    It swings the weight in either direction depending which way you accept Han to have conducted himself in this scene.



    Now, for myself, I like my Han Solo being like the Duke a little, and that means he bloody well shot first while being drawn on, while hiding that he had a gun.
    That's Big Jake; the Duke, that's Han.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #53 Jayson, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
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  14. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    How can I put this? I disagree with you in so many ways. Han's reluctance to help Leia and allow her to die struck me as a lot more cold-blooded than him shooting Greedo. The latter struck me more as a good reaction to an immediate threat, which is what Greedo was. In other words, Han had a good excuse to shoot him anyway, whether he was first or second. Han being reluctant to save an innocent from being executed aboard the Death Star, while he was there, struck me as him being very selfish and ugly.

    Personally, I think this obsession over whether Han shot Greedo first or not is due to some fear that the former might be robbed of his "cool factor". And I suspect that is what this is all about . . . "cool factor". That's why I have never regarded the whole situation worth this hullaballoo in the first place.
     
  15. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I can't speak for others, but for me, it's not about "cool factor".
    Taking that away changes everything to me about Han.

    I'm not in disagreement about the Leia bit regarding how cold it is.
    My disagreement is in what the weight lies on due to the change not being on that mark.

    If Han had been left to shoot Greedo first and the change was made by Lucas that he now thinks that Han should just heroically jump to saving Leia, then my umbrage would be with that change and I would be found to claim that that moment is the defining moment for Han.

    The reason I don't hold Leia's bit all that deeply is because Han was already set up to behave that way from the Haggle scene, and the Greedo scene; and further by the conversation on the Falcon along the way.
    Once we remove the Greedo scene from how it was originally, to me, then the Leia scene becomes more important because Han is less clear in character origin until that moment (with the change). We don't know if Han is a scoundrel or a reluctant hero because he was ultra-good in response to Greedo by waiting until Greedo shoot before resorting to violence, and the scene with the Haggle shows us a swindler. So it's a bit muddled.

    Once the Leia bit occurs, with the changed Greedo variation, then we get a more clear picture. We have a cold-hearted and jaded reluctant hero on our hands.
    What we don't have is a cold-hearted and jaded antihero.

    The reluctant hero is a character who does not initially seek adventure or the opportunity to do good, and their apparent selfishness may impede the reading them as a true hero.
    The antihero is a character who does not fit into the typical heroic mold because of self-centeredness coupled with right actions motivated by morally incorrect choices.

    The difference is whether he's read as someone like, say, John McClane from Die Hard - a reluctant hero, or Rooster Cogburn (film of the same name) - an antihero.

    Ultimately, over the whole arc, Han reads as a reluctant hero, but where he starts depends on those first few scenes, and at first he reads more of an antihero who becomes a reluctant hero.

    However, with the change (or changing any of those first few principle scenes) he becomes a reluctant hero right away and hasn't any dynamic change in archetype over the course of the story.
    He just becomes a reluctant hero who has the typical story of eventually accepting their role as a hero by the end of the story.

    The interesting thing about the original set up, to me, was that you have an antihero in act one who's thrust into becoming a reluctant hero in act two, and then becomes a true hero in act three. "I'm not good, and I don't want to", to "I'm good but I still don't want to", to "I'm good and I want to".
    That, to me, was new and very interesting - fresh! It made Han very interesting in ANH and he ended up having far more character motivation and change than any other character in the story.

    Change Greedo, change the Leia scene, or change the Haggle, and he becomes less dynamic. We now just see a Han with a two dimensional arc. "I'm good, but I don't want to" to "I'm good and I want to".

    Again, I don't disagree about the crassness of Leia that much. I don't think it's out of character to be so indifferent about the whole thing, however, if he's an antihero in Act 1. Then it's rather, "Yeah, of course he wouldn't think that was worth a damn. It risks his neck for nothing."

    Like I said. It's not about "The Greedo Scene". That doesn't define Han exclusively.
    It only does define his role because it's been altered to purposefully change his archetype establishment in Act 1.
    If Greedo wasn't altered and Han leapt right into saving Leia; if that was the change that was made, then I would be found to be pointing fingers at that change.

    In a nutshell, for me, DON'T CHANGE THE ESTABLISHED CHARACTER ARCHETYPES OF THE ORIGINALS.

    That's all it is for me. I would have as much gripe if Lucas deleted Luke whining about going to town to by some power converters.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #55 Jayson, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
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  16. Get In Gear

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    Seems the new Disney+ version includes yet another revision of this scene...
    To be honest, I'm kind of past caring as to the pros and cons of this, but I am certainly intrigued who precisely would have actually authorised/carried out any post-Lucas alterations... people are claiming they appear to be entirely new scans in general (of ANH and ROTJ at least)... :confused:


    EDIT: It appears the change was overseen by Lucas before the sale to Disney...
    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/11/greedo-han-solo-star-wars-edit#
     
    #56 Get In Gear, Nov 12, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
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    According to Pabs, the edits were all Lucas-approved for the 3D release that never happened. Or something.
     
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  18. Get In Gear

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    Yeah, came across the Vanity Fair article, and was just in the process of editing my post when you posted...
     
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    Han shot first in the original cut of ANH. Now who knows? Greedo shot first and had the aim of a Stormtrooper or they both shot. I am actually suprised Lucas spend so much time on changing this detail. No disrespect for “The Maker,” it just seems an odd thing to alter not once, but twice.
     
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  20. Get In Gear

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    Well, thrice now...
     
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