Return of the Jedi is the Destruction of Star Wars

As a child who was there in 83, the biggest impression I got from the movie was that Luke defeated Vader. YAY!!! Good guy beat the bad guy. YAY!!! It mattered less to me that the bad guy was Luke's father except that he stopped being the bad guy after Luke beat him. Which I thought was nice of him. The Emperor left very little impression on me when I first saw the movie besides "oh there are more bad guys" and the obvious symbolism of Vader becoming a good guy by saving Luke from him.

Jabba , the Ewoks and even Admiral Ackbar made a much greater impression on me than the Emperor at that time.

 

Same here, except replace Jabba, Ewoks, and Ackbar with the desert ship, tree village, and speeder bikes.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I've been a Star Wars fan for over 4 decades. I was too young to see the films in the theaters so as an 80s kid I think I saw A New Hope and Return of the Jedi before Empire. I loved RotJ and I still enjoy it. It's in my bottom tier of Star Wars films though. The plan to rescue Han that's mentioned in Empire makes very little sense if you think about it. Han is kind of sidelined. The Luke/Anakin stuff is gold.

I do think that so people have missed the central part of Luke's character in this film and that probably led to some disappointment in The Last Jedi. The Jedi are restored to the place they should have been before the Clone Wars. Pacifists who act more like the wizards in Lord of the Rings. They were never supposed to be generals or war lords. It would be nice that the era after the sequel trilogy spends more time outlining what the Jedi are all about.

 

I understand the argument here, and I agree with portions of it: recent SW films’ trend in “recycling” themes and plot points comes from ROTJ’s reusage of rebels-blowing-up-a-death-star scene, which I found sloppy.
However, apart from that (and the cringingy-drawn-out Han rescue scene which was nearly 30 minutes long!) ROTJ is actually my favorite film of the OT. It was the first movie that made me love Star Wars and think about the deeper themes and connections. I was a lucky kid: I remember sitting down to watch the special editions, and it was like Star Wars like I had never seen it. In the background, I was hearing whispers of ‘prequels’ on the way, so re-watching the Special Editions made me look for “clues” that might be in the upcoming prequels. What I found most interesting was the redemption of this “Anakin Skywalker” character, and this changed how I saw the saga. Traditionally, movie good guys ruthlessly kill off the bad guy. But not here. I applaud George Lucas for taking the gutsy path by turning the biggest villain into a good guy in the end. Who honestly saw that coming in 1980 after watching TESB? Nobody in my family, for sure.
So, in short, ROTJ brought a lot to the table. It had a few sloppy moments regarding recycled ANH elements, but overall a good film.

 

I never got that impression when I saw the movie back then, especially since I found Anakin's efforts during that fight rather lukewarm. Although ROTJ is my least favorite of the six films produced by Lucas, I must admit that moment when Anakin saved Luke from Palpatine was very thrilling. I do remember the audience responding with surprise and cheers.

 

If Return of the Jedi was as well made as The Empire Strikes Back (visually) it would probably be the most beloved.

 

I will admit that ROTJ is my least favorite of the six films made by George Lucas. But . . . I don't regard it as "the destruction" of Star Wars. For me, the Sequel Trilogy . . . well, the ST movies are the only Star Wars productions I truly dislike so far.

 

I think people also forget that the 80s were the pinnacle of packed out cinemas and theatres.

Whilst people can offer opinion on what they thought, ROTJ on the big screen had some technical moments never before seen on the big screen.

Lucas was always known for pushing the boundaries, and whilst clearly the script isn’t a touch on ANH or ESB the achievements of the battle of Endor, the sound, the visuals stunned audiences. Stedicam worked wonders here.

I always remember this as the critique. AHN gave us Star Wars, EB gave us the masterpiece and ROTJ wowed audiences.

And all (IMO) are still better than anything that has come after.

 

I cannot agree with that either.

 

For me, personally, the only film that ruined SW is TROS.

The prequels did not 'undo' anything Lucas did...simply went into depth as to why Anakin Skywalker 'fell' as well as depicting the mistakes the Jedi made which ultimately led to their destruction. If anything they showed the real tragedy of Darth Vader, and as a result I actually appreciated the OT, and Luke's decision to try and save his father instead of destroying him, all the more.

When I first saw TFA I expected to absolutely loathe Kylo Ren...instead I felt pity. And the scene where Han forgives his son by gently stroking his face, still gets me even now. It's why I desperately wanted Kylo redeemed.

TLJ is possibly my favourite film since ESB, for reasons I've already stated elsewhere.

As a fan of the OT cast, I would have liked them to live a bit longer...but at least they lived. And while Ben/Kylo lived, they would have returned in their grandchildren.

Instead Abrams and Terrio chose to kill of their descendent, and replace him with...Palpatine's grandchild.

It does not matter one jot how you try to justify it, but with that creative decision Abrams and Terrio destroyed SW forever for me. Unlike many fans, I always was a fan of the film universe, rather than the EU of books and tv series. They were the dessert, the Skywalker Saga the main course. And Abrams and Terrio have trashed them forever.

The PT ended with the birth of the twins, and the knowledge that Luke would redeem his father and in turn, Anakin would find peace and destroy the monster who destroyed him.

The OT ended with the 'good guys' winning.

The ST ended with the heroes gone, their bloodline gone, and all at the hands of the monster Anakin sacrificed himself to destroy.

If Ben Solo was 'doomed' to fall because of who his grandfather was..then so is Rey. And of course, Palpatine now will always be a threat, because if he came back once he could again.

Everything the Skywalkers - and Solos - did was for nothing. That is an appallingly depressing way to bring the Saga to an end. It's pointless watching Obi Wan for me, knowing the ultimate fate of the entire Skywalker family. The PT ended on a hopeful note. TROS destroyed everything.

 

Interesting discussion here and some very valid points. I'd just like to say ROTJ still turned out to be a very good movie, and many SW fans still think of as the best of the OT. Which is interesting considering the many changes the movie went through, and some of the very same issues the Disney movies had, yet look how that turned out!. I'd also like to point out The Cosmonant Variety Hour is a well known Disney shill that has been called out a number of times trying to defend the Sequels by critiquing the Original and Prequel Star Wara movies with their bs, and IMO anyone who support's this kind of thing deserves to be laughed at.

 

Um...to me, that sounds like the owners of a third rate greasy spoon slating a five star restaurant because they're jealous of them!

 

The fact you place TLJ so highly for no particular reason (and YES I've seen your laughable excuses to try and justify that movie) just goes to show how little some people really understand where the problem with Disney SW really lies. Fact is TLJ was made by a man who deliberately set about dividing the SW fanbase to satisfy his own ego, with a movie that caused the ST to implode by attempting to retcon what came before so Johnson, and to a larger extent Kennedy, could insert their own narritive by a process known as "bait and switch". That's not to say TROS doesn't have any problems of its own, it certainly does, but by leaving Abrams nowhere to go for the final movie, a tactic Johnson even admits to because he wanted to provide an "ending for TLJ" in the middle of a trilogy where it didn't belong, he alone destroyed anything the ST could have been not anyone else.

 

The scene that shows just why Leia is a great heroine:

 

"Return of the Jedi" is my least favorite Star Wars movie produced by George Lucas. But I still love it. And there is no way in the world you can convince me that the 1983 movie is the destruction of the Star Wars saga. As far as I'm concerned, the only productions that came close to destroying the saga for me were the Sequel Trilogy movies.

 

The OT ended with Obi Wan, Yoda and Anakin all dead. The heroes of the previous trilogy don't survive the next one.

 

There is only one movie which began the destruction of Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back.

Before that, there was only one movie. And all of what could be beyond that was purely in the imagination of anyone who watched it.
It also wasn't anything definitive just yet as a saga. There was no destruction yet required to be done to create anything.

No one needed to go back over what had been done, figure out what had been done before, work to recreate what had been done before, rework and alter what had been done before, retrofit and squeeze what had been done before, etc... because there was only one movie.

The moment there were two which were tangentially related to each other narratively in meaningful weight to any degree worth the merit of note beyond simply the notion of a sequel inherently meant that the second would to some degree deconstruct the first to achieve its construction.

Even if nothing was retrofitted into the second regarding the first, even if every prop and costume had been preserved and nothing had to be rebuilt or altered physically, the psychological alteration of the second movie immediately alters the meaning and understanding of the first movie upon its very existence, and as such immediately therefore begins that movie's destruction from what it was.

This is only because they are tangentially related.

For example. Indiana Jones and Back to the Future don't cause a destruction of their first movies by their sequels because they are not tangentially related to each other in any sort of direct fashion in comprehension of value, merit, weight, symbolism, or meaning.

Empire Strikes Back, however, radically alters just about everything to do with the understanding of what you saw in the first movie. Just about every symbol you saw, every character you believed to be one thing, became something entirely different than it previously had been.

If all anyone means by destruction is, however, that the quality has been depreciated, then that is effectively like asking which candy bar caused the destruction of the goodness of given brand of chocolate. There's no universal answer to that because one might as well ask when have you added too much salt for a steak?

The only real valuable meaning of "destruction" is either to say, "high deviation from the methodology of craft", or, "considerable alteration of meaning of the previous".

In both cases, Empire marks both as, in regards to the former, Lucas was no longer the director, the financial stability was radically altered, method for just about everything was radically changed, an entirely different style of writer was brought in than ever came close to touching anything in the first one, etc... down the line. (The second definition already being outlined previously.)

Whether it was "good" or not. That entirely depends. While everyone else will walk around talking about Empire, it is still to this day the one I am least likely to pick up and watch. I get rather bored quickly watching it. Something about its pacing is just off. Too slow for its own good, and I like slow movies. I can watch Tarkovsky and Kurosawa. But something's missing in its pacing. There's also a lack of jazz in it. That skip in its step the first one had.

The first one has this sort of kick down the door and yell "ROCK!" at you rebel yell all through it. The second one is far more introspective and academic.

The third one is some strange blend of the two. Like Jack Black is as a real person, sort of. This very deep, introspective and insightful person who also just yells rock lyrics abruptly at you. That's sort of Jedi to me. Sitting, thinking, big long serious deep looks packed with leagues of deep familial moral meaning... SPEEDER BIKES, YEAH!

Which, to me, feels like the whiplash that is the comparative gear shift between the first movie and the second.

Every one of these movies is amazingly impressive. Just simply amazingly impressive.
And at the same time, every movie after the first has served to repeatedly reduce the amount of bottled up pizazz explosion that Star Wars contains in the first one.

So, I don't know. Draw your line wherever, I suppose. It really comes down to simply where do you want to get off the train? The train will keep going and it's not really its fault there's more stops than you think there should be on a route. Just, ... you know. Get off where you'd like to?

That having been said, I will add a note about Return of the Jedi that I think is thoroughly often overlooked.

The first movie moves in the language of the Western and the WW2 war movies. The Hidden Fortress in space.
The second movie moves in the language of Historical Epics. Gone with the Win in space.

The third movie, now that moves in a language it pretty much invented.
Prior to Jedi, there really hadn't been a movie that moved like that. Today they're everywhere. Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle, The Avengers: Endgame, Guardians of the Galaxy, Men in Black, Independence Day, Jurassic Park, etc...

This idea of narrative character driven stories with whiplash tosses between down beats of deep and profound character introspection and motivated growth and pain, with high points of intense action just wrapped up around the only possible character who could have caused this story.

That didn't exist. That is Kasdan and Lucas clashing and causing the birth of a whole new form of movie language.

Now it's pretty much standard. It's every Marvel movie or big action, fantasy, sci-fi, whatever blockbuster hit.

But when Return of the Jedi happened, before it... that did not exist. That formula wasn't anywhere as an idea in any screenwriter's head of movie language.

So, regardless whether you enjoy it or not. Return of the Jedi created an entire cinematic syntax we're still living in the wake of today.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I liked it.