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Faults and follies of the Jedi Council

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Pobody's Nerfect, Apr 29, 2018.

  1. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi General

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    Let's admit it here - Order 66 was damn near flawless strategy by Palpatine. I'm not sure if there was anything the Jedi could have done that would have prevented their destruction. But here's a list of Jedi failings that, if the Jedi would have been a little wiser, could have been fixed before Palpatine exploited them and ascended to the Emperor's throne.

    • Don't be afraid of Anakin Skywalker. You tell him you sense fear in him yet you're the guys afraid to train him. Anakin misses his mother, and although someone else put the words in his mouth, he probably was afraid to lose her. So buy her from Watto, give her a modest home in a safe system and let Anakin be at peace, knowing she's much better off in her new life because of him than she would have been back on Tattooine. It's the right and the moral thing to do. Instead you chose to disqualify him because he's concerned about her, a slave woman with no influence on a planet controlled by a criminal syndicate. If you won't free a slave then what makes you different than the Sith?
    • Leave the Jedi Temple. The opulence and extravagance borders on the obscene. You're supposed to be unattached to possessions, but ask a homeless Clone War refugee how it looks when the guardians of peace and justice live in a freakin' palace. When Palpatine declares the Jedi to be enemies of the state the common folk won't rush to your defense - they'll probably think About time those rich snobs got what's coming to them!
    • It's all about the Force, guys. Not the dogma, but the Force. Qui-Gon was the only Jedi who, when forced to choose between following the Force and following the will of the Jedi Council, didn't even hesitate. Somehow you've become so self important in your own minds that you think obedience to the Jedi Council is higher or better than obedience to the Force. Spoiler: It's gonna bite you in the ass in Episode III.
    • Yoda, when Anakin comes to you with premonitions of pain and suffering of someone close to him, and tells you he won't let those visions come to pass, pay attention. He doesn't need (and won't listen to) a lecture about not mourning or missing those who die. Give the kid some real help, like Jedi are supposed to do. Offer a Jedi healer or a medical droid or a bacta tank or a security detail or ANYTHING! Don't tell him to quit caring about the pain and suffering of someone close to him, or to rejoice in her becoming one with the Force.
    • Do not, under any circumstances ever, EVER say "The Jedi Council will have to take control of the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition." You DON'T have the authority to take control of the freely elected, representative government. You cannot replace elected officials you don't like with ones you do like. That's the electorate's job. Because as soon as you try to replace democracy with Jedi-ocracy you're no different than the Sith. Wait, actually you're worse. The Sith Lord was legally elected.
    • Maybe you should ask yourselves exactly why thousands of systems are siding with the Separatists. I know you've been guardians of the Republic for a long, long time, but if millions of people don't want to be in the Republic anymore maybe you should, idk, ask them why? Ask them what needs to change for them to want to stay. Because when you make a police state to keep the Republic from losing so many systems, you're encouraging even more systems to go, because who wants to live in a police state?
    • When your only tools are lightsabers and starfighters, every problem you see looks like it needs to be cut in half or blasted to bits. Try building some PR cred with non-violence. Build something up instead of knocking something else down. Get the people on your side. Spoiler: You're gonna wish you had in Episode III.
    • In the end the Jedi Knights weren't too different from the clones they commanded. Both were raised from children to be warriors, to meet every problem with violence, to obey orders. Neither was allowed to fall in love, have a family, live a normal life. Luke told Rey the Jedi Council trained Anakin to be a killer - and he was right. When that killer started taking orders from the other side you guys were screwed. Why didn't you train him to be a healer instead? I know the whole mystical warrior vibe is sexy, but seriously, wouldn't the Galaxy be a better place with fewer mystical warriors and more Force doctors? Could Anakin have kept the ones he loved from dying if the Jedi had let him learn that, instead? We'll never know. The only thing he knew how to do was use a lightsaber. That didn't help his mother in the Tuskin Raider camp.
    So the Jedi fell. They were perfectly maneuvered into Order 66 but they'd already lost their way before then. They saw themselves as the kingmakers, the real power behind the throne. They'd already lost their way.
     
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  2. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    This is a good one...I like it, so;

    While yes, there are several facets to this overall issue. To begin with, we have to remember that the Jedi "are not in the business of freeing slaves", which immediately is contradicted by Qui-Gon arranging for Anakins freedom. Aside from that, IF the Jedi had bought Shmi's freedom, then the Jedi ran the risk of being branded as "They whom free slaves" and become immediate enemies of millions of slavers and criminal syndicates...and targets. They're peacekeepers.

    To a degree, yes. I'm not necessarily opposed to the Jedi order setting up shop in a "Palace" per se, but not next to the senate building as it immediately gives the wrong impression. I understand that the Temple on Coruscant was there first (and a Sith shrine before that), but it does give the impression of opulance to those that look upon it, but it needed to be remote..away from civilization, and not have a city spring up around it...or be allowed.

    Again...to a degree. There is always hierarchy, and those Masters were just that for a reason, but in this case, seem to have been blinded by being allied with the Republic. This again goes back to the fact that their central world should have been remote in order to escape the traffic of their surroundings, so to speak...to stay "at-one" with the Force instead of following some trite "Standard operating procedure" about their duty to the Republic...they somewhat withdrew from the Force, and instead, USED the Force instead of LISTENING to it.

    See, this (in my opinion) is where Disney/LFL dropped the ball in doing away with one more EU book than they should have: "The Jedi Path". If you've read this book, you know that it deals with/describes ALL of the different Jedi "occupations", which were not all Knights as we've always known them in the movies...it was an all-encompassing order that had occupational specialties that ranged from the Knights to gardeners...that DID good things for the Galaxy, and were known for all of it...like the "Jedi Peace-Corps" that built schools and "stuff", but it's now been done away with.
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I like this thread a lot. We're having a similar discussion here, but I think this thread here is a bit more focused for this specific topic.


    Anyway, one thing that really reminds me of this topic in Star Wars is the order in Assassin's Creed (I'm a big fan of that series as well).

    In the series, one of the codexes written by Altair references the ways that the Assassins have lost their way, and how they can retain their identity while still adapting to the times:

    It's made me realize that our tactics, too, must change. It means an end to our fortresses. To our penchant for spectacular displays of public assassinations. We must weave our webs quietly. And we must do so differently than we have in the past.

    Though I ask my brothers now to abandon their rituals, I do not ask that they abandon the creed. THIS is what makes us assassins. Not the removal of a finger. Not a false promise of paradise. Not the prohibition of poison. Our duty is to the people, not to custom. If we must sneak, we shall sneak. If we must use poison, we shall use poison. If our blades can be used without removing fingers, we shall not demand they be taken. And we shall not manipulate our initiates with lies and parlor tricks. We shall speak plainly and honestly. We shall be made anew...

    Additionally, he discuss the three tenets of the Brotherhood:

    The tenets are:

    1. Stay your blade from the flesh of an innocent
    2. Hide in plain sight
    3. Never compromise the Brotherhood


    Yet Altair writes these ironies based on them:

    1. The Assassins seek to promote peace, but commit murder.
    2. The Assassins seek to open the minds of men, but require obedience to rules
    3. The Assassins seek to reveal the danger of blind faith, but practice it themselves.
    Additionally, as Altair points out in his codex, big flashy displays such as their fortress at Masyaf clearly and directly contradicted their code.[​IMG]


    Anyway, as we see in games like Rogue (part of the American trilogy, which very clearly is based in part on the Star Wars saga itself) the Assassins Brotherhood definitely goes through times of its own flaws and even corruption. But it's strengthened when it realizes and addresses these problems, as we see with characters like Altair and Connor, two men who saw the fall of an old order and the rise of a newer stronger one. We even have characters like Bellec in Unity who misdiagnose the need for a new order, causing their own slew of problems.

    The prequel Jedi were loath to look internally at their own flaws, and in many ways they still passed this blindness down to Luke, who ultimately ended up getting disenchanted on his own.


    What's really interesting to me is the fact that Rey is the first Jedi to really have room to grow with this knowledge and to pass it on to others. At least, as far as we've seen in current canon. I expect that the damage that Palpatine did in Order 66 and its leading events was, as you say, partially due to the Jedi's own faults- but I think we're finally going to see a better order soon.
     
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  4. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Mistake nr. 1: Attachment is bad
    Mistake nr 2: Sexuality is bad
    Mistake nr 3: Doctrine is sacred
    Mistake nr 4: War and armies are bad, we Jedi are the guardians of peace and justice
    Mistake nr 5: Jedi as generals, bad mistake. Apparently, the Jedi believe that if someone is a good ambassador and can swing a lightsabre with skill, he or she is also a good general....
    Mistake nr 6: Prophecies
    Mistake nr 7: The narrow minded view of the force
    Mistake nr.8: the absolute 'good'
    Mistake nr. 9: no political power or political protectors
    Mistake nr. 10: no resources
    Mistake nr 11: never attack, never be assertive and pro-active
    Mistake nr 12: ambition is bad....apparently
    Mistake nr 13: staging a coup
    Mistake nr 14: not managing dissent. If you're not with them, you're against them and they either expel you or threaten to.
    Mistake nr 15: not knowing how to deal with the excellence of some of its individual members.

    [​IMG]
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 30, 2018 ---
    I did not expect Assassin's Creed, but wow! Great post! I'm in love with Assassin's Creed as well!
     
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  5. Jeden.Dwa

    Jeden.Dwa Clone

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    Would giving Anakin a stronger role in handling a dispute as a JEDI than following his place as a mere Padawan with the Jedi Council already knowing he had such an off the chart Midichlorean count? And knowing that Anakin had so much power was it too much for all the Jedi Council to control? And was Anakine originally the one to bring balance to THE Force and was just mislead by bad teachers Sith and Jedi alike ?And would any of this change the fact why he hated The Jedi Order and Turned to The Darkside. And DO you think perhaps three prequel movies were not enough to explain his hatred and agression and poor choices Anakin made? I think more emphasis should have been put on Anakins struggles in becoming A Jedi and controlling his own power personally and Anakin should have been more aware of how much power he had. You can't change anyone. True change has to come from within.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 27, 2018 ---
    I don't think it was Anakin's lust for power that turned him to the Darkside it was Palpatines manipulation and lying that seduced Anakin to the Darkside with having an immense power he was made unaware of and not giving a role to maintain and control it. He already knew he was the most powerful JEDI in the galaxy. Anakin didn't get the recognition and he didn't know how to control it Like The Temptation of Jesus Christ on The Sermon On The Mount. And Anakin lacked more of a compassion for others except maintaining his own lineage. Which he lost. Starting with his his own Mother and His Wife. The seduction came when The Jedi Council didn't fill that stronger role for Anakins power. And Palpatine was just the man with the corruption and the resources to make Darth Vader fill that spot. Me thinks. Afraid maybe JEDI was to bringing too much change with a wife and offspring to The Jedi Way and The Republic. What were some of the other common character flaws Yoda spoke of in other Padawans? Will they be explored too? I believe it was Anakin and not Luke to bring balance to The Force. But the Way of the Force The Whills bring promise and A New Hope to keep the light and dark forces in balance.
     
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  6. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    Without getting into spoilers, check out the new Qui-Gon comic. Great post.
     
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  7. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Palpatine could only do so much. After all, Anakin did rat him out to Mace Windu. In the end, I think it was Anakin's desperation to save Padme from any future death and his misguided belief that Palpatine could save him that did him in.
     
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  8. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi Sentinel - Army of Light
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    Fan's of Anakin Skywalker and Kylo Ren make excuses for them, yet they made their own decisions to fall to the dark side. Take a lesson from Rey and Luke who stayed firm and fought evil till the end.

    Anakin was weak, selfish, and did not see the bigger picture as OB1 did. Kylo killed an innocent, unarmed old man in cold blood, he ordered an entire village of people to be slaughtered. Kylo killed Snoke who manipulated him, but still continued on his evil course. At the end, he told Luke that he would kill him, Rey, or any other that steps in his way. Both made absolute decisions, as Kylo said, no quarter, no clemency, and no mercy.
     
    #8 Rogues1138, Dec 10, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  9. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    I've said this before and I'll say it again. Luke was lucky. He was lucky that Palpatine had grown careless and too arrogant for his own good. Luke should thank Palpatine's big mouth. Who knows what would have happened if Palpatine had not interrupted Luke's attempt to kill Anakin.


    Obi-Wan's own arrogance and selfish penchant for clinging to the Jedi Order played a role in what happened. All of them - Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padme, the Jedi and the Senate - played a role.
     
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  10. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi General

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    Yes, Luke was lucky. Palpatine was too arrogant and overconfident.

    But there's a much bigger point I'd like to share. Luke didn't win by being more powerful with a lightsaber, or more attuned with the Force. Luke won in a very non-Jedi way: he saw the good in his enemy and challenged him to see the good in himself. There's power in that. Enough power to topple an Empire.

    Every Jedi who ignited his lightsaber and squared up against the Empire died. Luke threw down his lightsaber and won.

    Because love is stronger than the Force. The Jedi were fearsome Force warriors but they didn't know diddly squat about love. They were forbidden to fall in love or have a family. They couldn't understand love. They were trained since childhood to be fearless warriors and simply lacked the frame of reference to understand how powerful love could be.

    And they died by the thousands.

    Then Luke showed up and won. He won not because he tried to kill Darth Vader, he won because he tried to save him.
     
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  11. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    ..he saved what he loved.
    Poor Jedi/Sith of the old school who loved their dogmas/ideas more than anything else, more than their own people.
     
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  12. zacharycherif

    zacharycherif Rebel Trooper

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    Ok so I am going to try to deliver a defense of the jedi while trying to explain why so many star wars fans hate them.
    The jedi are full time goverment workers who wield massive power and have to be responsible with it.
    The problem with the jedi is not that they served the republic but instead that they served a senate whose connection to the will and plight of the people was severed by the influence of big money in politics.
    The jedi temple on coruscant was a bad idea from a spiritual level but it made sense for the practical day to day operations of governemnt workers.
    The jedi are allowed to love and have sex (according to George Lucas). They are not however allowed to have selfish attachements which has more to do with jealousy and entitlement than love. The problem with attatchment is that they can compromise a jedi's ability to protect people from outside forces and themselves.
    The jedi don't bury their emotions but rather they try to not be influenced by them so they can always be in the here and now.
    Ok now let's move on to the plot points that were brought up at the beginning of this thread.
    The jedi did not fear anakin, they just did not think he would be a good fit for the jedi order (they were right). The jedi only trained anakin because they wanted to honor and make amends with qui gon after he died proving that they were wrong to dismiss the return of the sith.
    Also like dave filoni said the jedi council is not a homogenous monolith. Look at the difference between yoda mace and ki aid mundi in the movies.
    You don't know that the jedi did not try to free Shmi. She was married shortly after anakin left.
    The jedi have many skills other than being warriors. they are mediators, and negotiators.
    Just like buddhist monks the jedi as a whole are not dogmatic. Some jedi maybe dogmatic but the order as a whole is pretty flexible. The jedi lead their lives in a thoughtful philosophical way that allow them to cope with being force sensitive and therefore feeling a higher connection to every one and dealing with a huge amount of power. Remember the jedi accepted to train anakin just to honor qui gon even if it went against their so called dogma.
    Padme died because anakin acted upon his visions. A big theme of mythology and star wars (especially the empire strikes back) is not to act rashly on the deliverance of a prophecy. A lot of heroes doom themselves by trying to foil a prophecy. This is why Yoda wanted anakin to overcome his fear of lost so that he won't be controlled by it. It's interesting to see the difference in how yoda reacted to ashoka seeing padme getting shot in her visions compared to his reaction to anakin. Also anakin was not completely forthcoming with yoda so the latter's ability to help was limited.
    The jedi reacted to shmi's death by giving anakin an apprentice that would serve as a new emotional anchor while also teaching him to trust others to take care of themselves.
    The jedi wanted to overthrow Palpatine because he fabricated a false war, not because of religious differences.

    Ok now let's talk about why star wars fans hate the jedi.
    First a lot of fans reacted badly to the midi chlorians, because it made the jedi seem like an elite eugenics group of people. I find this point to be semi legitimate. That said I am not bothered by the fact that some people have superiors genes that allow them to preform better athletic feats than me in real life, so it does not bother me that some people have an innate more powerful connection to the force. Also the idea that to truly connect to the force you need to be in touch the very motors of life does not strike me as being unspiritual.

    Centrist star wars fans hate the jedi because they were train from birth to have the pavlovian instinct to solve every problem by finding the answer on the middle ground. These fans see the jedi as being just as bad as the sith because its is the laziest way to claim the intellectual high ground. I suggest you people watch Gwen_no_Fear's video about the Grey Jedi Code.

    Leftwing star wars fans, especially the intersectional kind, hate the jedi because they hate the notion that constantly indulging your emotions is a bad thing.
    Rightwing star wars fans, especially the Ayn Rand readers hate the jedi because they hate the notion that being a selfish prick is a bad way to lead a life.
     
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  13. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    Interesting, I don't see how ANY fan of Star Wars could hate the Jedi. The Jedi ARE what makes Star Wars what it is. Well, them and the Sith. Lightsaber duels, the force... all of these things are what makes this series what it is and helps differentiate it from just plain old Sci/fi.

    As for the midi-chlorians, I didn't like that explanation because it sounded to "star-trekkie" to me. I loved the more mystical aspect of the force. But I don't have a problem with the idea that some people have superior genes than me. It happens. I can't play football like Tom Brady and I can't play Basketball like Lebron James. They, and plenty of others, have genes that are far superior than mine.

    To me, the major fault of the Jedi Council was getting wrapped up in supporting the Republic, be with the Senate or the whatever. That was a mistake. As you point out, they were, essentially, government employees.

    The second mistake is they were too focused on being servants to the light only. Denying the fact that there is good and bad in everyone. The Dark AND the Light. The Yin and the Yang. By focusing so much on the good only, they neglected the dark and that led to their undoing. They couldn't teach Anakin anything about the dark side, as they didn't study it. When Anakin tries to talk to Yoda about his fear of losing Padme, the response is "learn to let go." Easily said, far harder to do, especially for Anakin.
     
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  14. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi General

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    Zachery, I don't hate the Jedi, and I apologize if I gave that impression.

    But that doesn't mean I see good and evil in the same terms the Jedi did.

    I think one of the reasons Star Wars has touched so many people is because it's so relatable. The mythology resonates within us because we know -on a human level - that it's true. Power goes to people's heads, and they start to believe might makes right. That leads to terrible government by people who know better but honestly can't see what they're doing is wrong.

    That's what happened to the Jedi. They denied their human emotions so completely, convinced themselves so thoroughly that they were right simply because they were Jedi, that self reflection became blasphemy. And without asking themselves "Gee, we sure are doing a lot of killing to keep people from leaving the Republic", they became the enforcers of a government thousands of systems wanted to escape.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 14, 2018 ---
    Trevor, if you aren't enemies of slavers and criminal syndicates, then you've truly lost your way.
     
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  15. Darth Worm

    Darth Worm Rebelscum

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    Although it may seem more primitive, Dooku choosing a Zabrak on Dathomir is sort of similar to all of this. Because of the massive restrictions placed on Savage, he rebels and fights against Dooku and later becomes an apprentice to Maul. Now, we can connect this with the Jedi in that... when one is denied emotions such as personal connections/relationships and such and is therefor restricted under a set of rules (in this case, the Jedi Code), there ought to be a rebellion. This is why so many Jedi, feeling trapped under the Jedi Code, resorted to becoming Grey Jedi.
     
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  16. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi General

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    I always found it interesting that Qui-Gonn called it "the living Force" and not just the Force.

    The rest of the Jedi seemed to treat the Force as an inanimate tool - a screwdriver or a hammer - that unless a Jedi was using it right then, the Force just kinda sat there in the toolbox doing nothing. Qui-Gonn (and Luke, in the ST) seemed to realize the Force was always active, whether a Jedi was aware of it or not.

    This is important when you consider how none of the Jedi except Anakin questioned the morality or the legality of what they were doing, and Anakin didn't question the morality of it until Padme asked him if maybe they were fighting for the wrong cause.

    Why didn't a single Jedi ask if the war they were fighting to keep planets from leaving the police state was the right thing to do? Why did all of them dedicate their lives to fighting a war secretly organized by the Sith? Why did the Jedi use the Force to guide their lightsabers but not their decisions?

    And the only answer I can find is that the Jedi only understood how to use the Force as a weapon. They couldn't use it to interpret prophecies or to answer questions of ethics. They couldn't use it to create a fair government or a peaceful existence. They couldn't create life with the Force but they were freakin' monsters at using the Force to end an enemy's life.

    I guess the living Force had finally had enough. You want war? I'll give you war! I'll raise up your equal and the two of you can destroy each other until the Force is in balance!
     
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  17. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Jedi Commander

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    Something I have been ruminating on. The Jedi believed Anakin was “The Chosen One,” who would “bring balance to the Force.” According to Jedi history, The Jed’aii Order believed in Bendu or Balance. They believed Jed'aii should give into the Lightside and Dark Side equally. Any Jed’aii who tried to be devoted to Light or Dark were exiled to two moons Ashla and Bogan. Those who were Jedi went to Bogan to learn darkness and come into balance, those proto-Sith would been sent to Ashla to learn Light. My theory is that the prophecy of the Chosen One serves to ressurect the Jed’aii Order. The Jedi and Sith are schisms from the Jed’aii, so balance is not their goal; rather the Jedi seek to master serenity to the Light while rejecting the Daek, and the Sith to command darkness and reject the light.

    The Jedi Council was right in their initial decision to train Anakin. For Skywalker to serve the Prophecy means an end of Light and Dark conflict, and instead ro create Bendu, balance as the Jed’aii did long ago.
     
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  18. Himmel

    Himmel Rebel Official

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    After the Jedi wiped out the sith, they became too selfish living the high life on Coruscant, regal clothing, lavish, decadent feasts, remaining unchallenged for a millennia. When Palpatine executed order66 they didn't know what hit them, and they were forced to go into hiding living a life of poverty to stay under the Empire's radar. I look at like reverse karma, if Bane hadn't instituted the rule of two the Jedi would've never been wiped out. Even though it took a long time his vision finally became reality. The Sith returned, and ruled even if it wasn't for as long as the Jedi's ruled.
     
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  19. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Jedi Commander

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    Many Jedi Sentinels survived Order 606 and the Purge because they weren’t living in the lavish Courscant Temple, but were disguised as mechanics and ordinary sentients helping others in more prgamatic ways. Jedi Sentinels lived like Friars among the common masses rather than in Temples and Enclaves as Monks, and so when Order 606 was executed, Sidious and Vader struggled to find them because they weren’t at shrines of Ashla, nor dressed like Jedi in robes.

    -Source, Jedi Path: Manual for Students of the Force, Daniel Wallace
     
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  20. JohnMarston1911

    JohnMarston1911 Rebelscum

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    This.
    The arrogance of the Jedi Council. One group of councilmembers having a strangle grip on the interpretation of teachings hinders the advancement of all in the Jedi.
    The dogma borders on cult behavior.
    A life of celibacy is not healthy or natural for anyone, including a Jedi.
     
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