Fun Speculation: Tying Up Loose Ends...

I wouldn't mind a little depth given to the question of why Ben turned. What was his motivation?

 

Unlimited Power!

 

i'm honestly surprised this is still a question.

we've been told over and over that Ben felt lost, abandoned, and betrayed (and saw at least part of that in TLJ).
he wants the same thing Rey does: to find his place in the galaxy.

his father couldn't help him with that. his mother sent him to Luke, but that didn't work out.
and you have this predatory Snoke rummaging around in him, making him promises, feeding him lies.

he's motivated by loneliness and fear and anger.
and he's been manipulated into thinking it's his birthright/destiny to rule the galaxy.
and because of loneliness, fear, and anger, he's embraced that in the worst possible way.

question is: now that he has it, will he realize that's not what he really wants. : o p

 

After VIII I was convinced more than ever that he has developped true compassion and very strong feelings for Rey as she is the only one to have "access" to his "innermost conflicts".
The problem is it would need someone/something to break through his "holy agenda"; maybe sthg like his personal "cave"-scene. For example a vision of Rey (and his child ? ) in danger?
I have no clue yet what else could trigger a huge transformation process.

 

Okay but is that really the fulcrum of motivation for his turn? There are a lot of people in the world who feel lost, abandoned and betrayed but the usually don't start killing people. They just feel, sad. I'm not saying, that can't be his reasons for turning to the dark side but they seem weak to me. At least in comparison to Anakin's motivation. Anakin's motivation was the desire to save the one he loved from dying. That makes sense. Palpatine's lies were playing directly on that fear, giving him a hope that he could find the way. Then Anakin was rushed into the decision at break-neck speed with no time to think about it.

If Ben's entire motivation was, feeling those feelings, that seems like weak motivation to me. If my uncle tried to kill me, that wouldn't make me suddenly turn evil, it would make me say "You are in the wrong" but I'd still be, not hurting people. It just seems there's more to it. If you're telling me about this guy, and saying those reasons, I'd be saying "There's got to be more to it than that. Something else is there that we don't know."

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 21, 2018 ---

If he started out as a Sith, that would make sense. And we could root for him to be thrown into a reactor shaft and explode in a ball of flame, and clap when it happened. But he starts out as a good person I presume. I thought Anakin's motivation and events leading to his turn made sense, a really tough situation with good intentions. So it makes him sympathetic. There's an empathy. But if Kylo's motivation was "Gimme da powah!" then where's the sympathy or the empathy? He may as well be Palpatine.

 

sorry for the late reply.

its not just the fear and the anger alone (you're right: lots of people are lost and fearful and angry).
it's that the sense of being lost, the fear, and anger open up a gateway to being exploited by people like Snoke.

Ben wants to feel whole, known, and purposeful. Snoke offers him that (in a fashion).
of course he's going to take it if he thinks it's going to heal the pain in him (or put that pain to purpose).

to be honest, it's not surprising that a lot of people can't relate to Ben.
if you're never been this afraid, alone, and desperate, why would you?

people keep looking for some external motivation. i feel like the whole point of the character is that his conflict is all internal. he's fabricated (or adopted) a false external motivation (ordering the galaxy) to spackle over the truth that all he really wants is someone to understand him, guide him, not fear him, and accept him for himself and not the things he had no control over (his bloodline, his power, his hero parentage, etc.).

 

That makes sense and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it doesn't work or wouldn't be likeable. I'm just looking at it in comparison with what George Lucas did with Anakin and Palpatine. In my opinion that storyline and how it worked was genius. Anakin was forced into something that was really difficult. The people he trusted were behaving in a suspect way, everything was called into question, he was forseeing his wife's death, and couldn't live without her. Palpatine was offering him exactly what he needed, and rushed his choice at a breakneck speed. The impossible decision had to be made in impossible time.

I get having Ben be manipulated. It's understandable. It's relatable. If that's the way it is, I'm fine with it. It makes sense. But I'd say, in my opinion, Snoke is nothing compared to Palpatine, and Ben has no idea how much easier he had it than Anakin. It's like I'd say to Ben "Sorry you were manipulated Ben. I'm surprised you went along with it, though. Lots of people feel that way." Whereas to Anakin I'd say "Dude. That was hardcore. That was rough. I can't imagine what I would've done in your shoes. Wow. Palpatine, man. That guy. he was a piece of work for sure."

 

to be fair though, nobody knows what it's like to be Ben. and nobody feels the way he feels. he is absolutely unique in the galaxy with his powers.
Anakin had the whole of the Jedi Order including a devoted straight-arrow mentor/master and the direct influence of Yoda himself.
Ben literally only had Luke and Snoke ~ and Luke didn't know what to do with him and Snoke ran away with the farm. two warring factions like the devil and the angel on his shoulders and no other model to look toward.

so while i appreciate that you think there's something to compare here, i absolutely think the two are not comparable at all.
neither is worse than the other. what's happened to both characters is insidiously awful and threatens to destroy the "souls" of these two dumb Skywalkers.
personally, i can't relate to Anakin at all as he's written in the PT. maybe that's not the fault of the story as much as perhaps the execution. i honestly can't tell.
on the other hand, i can totally absolutely relate to Ben.

which is to say nothing except that i'm glad we have this kind of variety/nuance of motivation in the ST ~ rather than just a repeat of the "noble intention gone wrong" narrative (though i think Anakin is more selfish than noble, but again, that could just be me). XD

 

Anakin was a nine year old boy with nothing to his name but the love of his mother. He was taken from that support system and handed over to a bunch of weirdos that actively shun that maternal sort of sentiment. He was placed in the most unnatural environment imaginable, committed to a way of life he was incapable of fully understanding, and forced to adapt. It’s logical he’d look elsewhere for the acknowledgement the Jedi couldn’t provide. It’s logical he’d hold resentment toward them because of it. He was the perfect target for a predator like Palpatine.

With Ben, we know he was sent away by his parents to go live with his kooky uncle Luke. So there’d certainly be an aspect of abandonment and resentment there - a feeling of being unwanted. Colored by a sense of entitlement by knowing his pedigree and that’s a good recipe for disaffection - the angry rich kid sent to boarding school because he’s inconvenient. But we don’t have any frame of reference for what life with Luke was like. How that experience would have shaped him. Why he’d be amenable to Snoke’s influence, or how Snoke was even influencing him to begin with. How did we get to Columbine Ben? There’s a piece missing here.

 

i guess that's my point: to me it's not missing at all.

people see privilege, a loving family, a gifted child.
but there's something broken inside.
i'm at a loss to articulate what this specific kind of abuse does to a person in a way that others could understand it.
i just know it when i see it. i 100% completely understand Ben.
but i absolutely appreciate that most people wouldn't (and perhaps in some ways that a good thing).

 

I certainly do appreciate that perspective and the pertinence of it. But, ultimately, he’s the fictional bad guy in a children’s fantasy series. If his particular motives are largely only relatable to those that implicitly grasp it, then that would read as confusing to many. What makes people do what they do is never as cut and dry as the movies make it seem, but this is still a movie.

What exactly are Vader’s motivations in the OT though? “Seduced by the dark side”? How is that relatable to the average person? Ask anyone with firsthand experience with the perils of addiction and its devastating effects on everyone surrounding it though, and you see that story from a whole different viewpoint. But that’s my little idiosyncrasy

 

if we're going to reduce it to a fantasy story (totally fair reduction, i say), then it really doesn't matter.
he turned because he was angry and disappointed and manipulated.
and the Dark side offered him control/power he didn't have in his life (to defend, to avenge, etc.) ~ that should then be really quite sufficient. ; D