HUMOR I want YOUR Star Wars hot takes

Those last minutes of ROTS were amazing. Great foreshadowing and it builds a nice bridge between the PT’s and the OT’s. Padmé’s last words and funeral were really powerful. 100% agree

 

Something to live for. Wouldn't you say?

I think Lucas wanted Anakin to actually kill Padme but got cold feet and confused the issue, and himself, by giving the audience an out if they couldn't accept Vader's "redemption" after learning this. If the rest of the saga had been about dealing with that confusion, it might have worked. But Vader's role in Padme's death is a non-issue thereafter. All it produced down the line was the scene later on where Sidious tells Vader plainly that he killed her (To show us that Sidious is an evil, heartless man? In case we didn't already get that?). And then Vader denying it. But that problem is instantly forgotten too.

 

Oh absolutely. Again, I'm not disagreeing with the fact that Padme should have lived, I'm simply trying to frame how it might look from a different perspective. Padme dying isn't that big of an issue if we look at it from 1-6 when compared to 4-6, 1--3.

He probably would have been right too, considering how hard it was to redeem Anakin as a character in general, and how hated Kylo Ren was after TFA.

In terms of the rest of the saga, that's simply one of the pains of working with prequels. You can recontextualize what has been set in stone - like, say, adding a whole Messianic arc and reframing the main character - but you can't change material that has come before. The Harry Potter series can't be about Dumbledore trying to atone for dealing with Grindelwald incorrectly, but you can add layers of context to see how Dumbledore may have let his dealing with Grindelwald affect how he dealt with Voldemort and even Harry himself.
For your plan to have worked, we probably would have needed to see Vader's "birth" and Padme's death in Episode 1 or 2, with Vader coming to terms with it in Episode 3.

To show that the reason people join the Dark Side doesn't pay off. The Dark Side is seen as easier, more seductive, but ultimately those who join it even for the best of intentions (saving a life) are still corrupted and will lose what they meant to save. That's the point. There's also the theory that Palpatine doesn't technically lie to Vader - that in order to save his own life, Vader drew upon the life of Padme, and in doing so unintentionally killed her. I think the audio of Padme's last breath lines up with Vader's first, giving a little more credence to the theory. If this is true, then I have no doubt that the technique was guided by Palpatine in order to tie up any loose ends* but it would still technically be true, an area that Palpatine likes to operate in.
Oh, and again for that Shakespearean tragedy. Anakin goes through great lengths and compromises to save his wife, all for it to fall apart because the Dark Side cannot inherently save people or be utilized for net positive stuff.

@risastór there's a lot of what you're saying that I personally consider a minefield on a forum like this, so I'm going to try to tread carefully and pick out certain issues to discuss. If I don't hit everything, it's more likely because I chose not to engage with that point, erring on the side of caution, than the chance that I didn't see it.
Also, please don't add your notes to quotes unless you want to emphasize something. At a first glance it looks like you've created an empty post, and for later viewers it might look like the person quoted said something that they clearly didn't. Just write outside of the quote and you'll be fine.

In a lot of ways, I also agree with what you're saying, but I definitely don't agree with your perspective on it nor how you're saying it.

Rey in ANH is the inverse of Luke but is still his mirror in a lot of ways. (Finn is actually given all the references however.) Where Rey wants a family, Luke wants to leave his. Where Rey wants to stay on Jakku, Luke wants to leave Tatooine. Where Rey desires a humble, "normal" life, Luke wants adventure. Both jump at the call to adventure, but for different reasons. To degrade Rey to "a hot woman" is erasing a lot of context and is disrespectful to both characters.

Rey actually did have a Hero's Journey in TFA and TLJ.. She left the Resistance one way and came back with the knowledge and power to save them. Her arc was more or less complete by the end of TLJ.

In ANH, Han may have been cool, but he was also entirely selfish and failed just as often as he succeeded. He shot first, but couldn't bluff the stormtroopers from the prison cell. He could open the door to get to Leia, but he couldn't save them in a fire fight. He could pilot well, but he still got hit by the tractor beam. And at the end of the day, his best moment was his most selfless one. Guess what? Finn is the exact same. Finn's best moment in TFA is him picking up that lightsaber and going toe-to-toe with Kylo in order to protect Rey. In TFA Finn isn't just the comic-relief, he's the heart of the film...something RJ took away from him and gave to Rose. How successful he was at doing so...YMMV. Do I have issues with some of TFA's humor with Finn? Yes, but very little at that, and nothing that couldn't be fixed in a scene or two.


As for Holdo...I think it's less about making her "likeable" - because why on earth does she have to be likeable? why does a woman need to be likeable to a man? Why does the perceptions of a man need to dictate how this woman should be portrayed? - and more about giving her a more justifiable reason to hate on Poe. Granted, her reason to hate on him is pretty solid: Poe is a hotshot pilot* who just destroyed most of their bombers in a risky move that blatantly disobeyed orders. Holdo and/or Leia may have been able to use those bombers in order to help escape the F.O., and now she can't.

Holdo, Ben Solo/Luke, and DJ all represent the hardest things for our characters to hear and do. For Poe, Holdo's "sit down and listen" doesn't need to be explained or justified to her. It's her prerogative on who to tell and who not to tell - and given how Poe has gone against Leia's wishes when he knew them, maybe she thought that keeping Poe from knowing them would keep him out of the way. If someone is going to always go the opposite of you, why tell them which way you're going? As for the "test of faith," aspect of the orders, what good is a test of faith if you openly know it's a test of faith? At that point it's really not even a test.

I do think TFA and TLJ absolutely respected what came before, but TLJ also made a point of not being a slave to it either. Wrapping up the retelling of the OT by cramming ESB and ROTJ into one movie, the breaking of the lightsaber, Leia's final lines, all of those things were RJ telling the next director "do what you want! Break new ground! You're free from this rhyme, so end the stanza however you want!" It's a tightrope act that I think was done very well for 2/3 of the overall story.

Kylo's "kill the past" isn't right, but neither was Luke's "be crippled by the past." Both need to learn to accept the past, both good and bad, and move forward. That's what separates our heroes from our villains. Rey, Luke, Finn, and Poe all learn to live with their mistakes, failures, and shames, and become better people. Kylo sinks deeper into his failure and shame because he can't accept his past. That's one heck of a story if you ask me!

TROS...well...the less I say about that, the better. I think I've made my feelings on that movie clear enough even through snide barbs. But when I think about fixing the plot, most of my corrections would occur here.

When it comes to the Mary Sue aspect, I will say this one thing: Many men seem to label women who are stronger then the men in-world as Mary Sues, whether or not that technically applies; it's pretty easy at times to fine male counterparts to these "Mary Sues" who aren't criticized for doing the exact same thing. I've been guilty of that but I'm trying to be better, and I've seen dozens of other examples of that. Be careful when throwing around that label, because it's not always true for who you think it's true for.



*This is an RJ interpretation of Poe that, while accurate to his portrayal in TFA and EU material at the time, wasn't the whole picture. The same is true for Finn.

 

@risastór you are welcome. Here is my next (unnecessarily long) response. This will also be my last for a time. Feel free to respond. I'll read it, but I won't reply. (At least not anytime soon...)

Experience can be beaten if experience isn't in top shape, which is exactly what happened in TFA. Lebron James can still be beaten in a game, as can Steph Curry, especially if they're playing on an injured leg.
Kylo was hit by Chewie's blaster, something we'd seen send Stormtroopers flying and was still walking. Then he was weakened by killing Han (something TLJ explicitly addresses), and again injured while fighting Finn. And then Kylo still had to chase down Rey during the fight. Besides it's not like Rey had no fighting experience - the staff on her back was for far more than just show. We saw her deal with the people who tried to kidnap BB-8. Finn didn't even have to interfere!

So you've got a very talented fighter running on absolute fumes mentally and emotionally from tanking a blaster that usually is a OHKO against a probably also very talented fighter who is using a weapon that, while she may be a little unfamiliar with, can adapt her previous training to.* I'm putting my money on the one who isn't about to pass out.

Would Kylo beat Rey in a straight Lightsaber duel? At this point in time, absolutely. BUT THIS WAS NOT A STRAIGHT LIGHTSABER DUEL. Treating it like it is is both factually incorrect and does a disservice to both characters.

(How often do we talk about Luke's trench run in the Death Star. Luke literally has ONE line where he says "oh it's like shooting wamprats" and we're supposed to believe he's an amazing pilot. Driving a speeder is probably vastly different than piloting an X-Wing, but we just believe it and go about our day. Then TFA goes out of its way to show us why this final match-up isn't supposed to be considered a fair fight, and people complain?)

In terms of her not being in any danger...that's the price of long-form storytelling. Rey can't be in danger if we know there are sequels. The fear comes then not from her being in mortal danger, but being in moral danger. Will she go to the Dark Side? Will she join Kylo? Those are the fears that need to be addressed. Again, this goes into TROS stuff, so I'll stop here.

If you're familiar with The Wheel of Time, then you should know that death isn't always the biggest fear...or not immediately anyways.

Rey's Hero's Journey...let's look at a simple chart and map it out:



1. Ordinary World - Rey's life on Jakku.
1.5. The Call to Adventure - Meeting Finn and BB-8.
2. Refusal to the Call - Choosing to go back to Jakku after meeting Finn & BB-8
3.Meeting the Mentor - Meeting Han Solo.
5. Crossing the Threshold - Escaping with Han Solo
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies - Her arc on Maz Kanata's world.
7. Approach - Regrouping with her allies.
8. Abyss - Fighting Kylo Ren (The Force-Back for TFA exclusive)
9. Reward; seizing the sword - Accessing the Force, gaining the map to Luke, and meeting him. (Discovering she can use the Force for TFA exclusive)
10. The road back - Her battle with Snoke (which could also count as the Abyss) (Escaping Starkiller Base on her own for TFA exclusive)
11. Resurrection - Her waking up from the battle with Kylo first and escaping to save her friends. (Her battle with Kylo and discovering her true potential for TFA exclusive.)
12. Return with the Elixer - Saving the newly formed Rebellion with the Jedi texts and Luke's blessing, noting that the knowledge and Order of the Jedi will not die. (Returning the lightsaber to Luke for TFA exclusive.)

Is that good enough for you?

In terms of Good guys:
Good guys don't have to be likeable, we just have to know that they are good and like aspects of them. House isn't likeable. Sherlock Holmes (of which House is actually a version of - Holmes, Homes, House...Watson, Wilson...get it?) isn't always likeable. Tree at the beginning of Happy Death Day isn't likeable. Endeavor certainly has been a terrible person, an abusive father, and an absolute jerk in MHA's anime, but he's still solidly on the side of heroes. Being nice doesn't prevent one from being good or evil, especially in stories where warfare is involved.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsNotNice
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsNotSoft

Holdo addressed Poe's concern as - "know your rank and place." That's really all Poe needs to hear. He's not with Leia who lets things slide. Poe needs to learn to trust those who know better than him that aren't Leia. But even if she was nice, we're not supposed to like Holdo because she's the antagonist to Poe's story! Her being likeable would make Poe look more like a jerk as a result, instead of the opposite.


Alright, let's talk about Luke. I personally find Luke's arc in TLJ to be brilliant. It's the exact same as Tony Stark's arc in Endgame, so if you like one, you really have no excuse in not liking the other.

Luke failed. He failed catastrophically and in ways that mirrored the failure of the PT Jedi to a point that he shut down. The PT Jedi failed Anakin and allowed for Palpatine to rise at the height of their power; the OT Jedi had lied to Luke in order to manipulate his actions for the betterment of the galaxy; and Luke as a Jedi failed by repeated the PT Jedi's sake in his treatment of the Jedi as an organization and as a mentor. He had failed like his father and mentors before him. And so in his mind rationalized that the best thing to do was to end the Jedi line. THIS DID NOT MEAN THAT HE GAVE UP ON THE LIGHT SIDE OF THE FORCE. LUKE SIMPLY STOPPED BELIEVING THAT THE JEDI WOULD BE THIS MAGICAL KEY THAT WOULD SOLVE EVERYTHING.

Luke and Snoke both echo similar feelings about "powerful light and powerful dark." Balance. They both knew that a strong Light Side user would come, Luke simply believed it shouldn't be a Jedi. In a way, Luke's philosophy for most of TLJ echoed Kylo's. Both wanted to kill the past because the past is flawed; but one is doing it out of vengeance and spite and the other is doing it as a misguided self-sacrifice.

Luke's whole day at the beginning of TLJ is supposed to be off-putting. It's similar to Yoda acting like a weird, crazy old alien. Heck Yoda also didn't want to train Luke and had to be convinced! But where Yoda was setting up the test to be one Luke really couldn't pass (since after he reveals himself, he starts making up excuses as to why Luke can't be trained), Luke in TLJ was actually trying get Rey to leave. So where one is a test that wants the apprentice to fail, the other was a test that wants the apprentice to see the teacher as a failure.

It's Luke going telling Rey "see, I'm just a hobo who lives such a depressing life. Go home." Luke was weak because he willed himself to be weak. The moment Luke reopens himself to the Force, he not only disrupts a pretty strong Force-Bond, he goes toe-to-toe with Rey (until he slips like any professional who's rusty might. He's not John Wick) and then proceeds to do the single most Jedi thing in the entire ST, echoing back to ANH while also reigniting a spark in the galaxy. You want to be mad because you were put off by Green Milk Luke? Congratulations, you're now OT Luke failing Yoda's test; and you should be mad at Yoda too, because he did it first.





*I can adapt parts of what my dad's eskrima stick teachings to a sword or rolled-up newspaper. It's not a solid 1-to-1 ratio, but in a pinch it'd do.

 

I'm not sure about that. My thought is that Lucas had planned not having her die at all, or at least vaguely had in mind that she remains alive beyond the birth of her children. I even recall interviews with Lucas prior to ROTS where he talked about Padme in a way that suggested she survives beyond the end of that part of the story (although it's fair to say he was hardly going to give away the ending either. But he could have just said nothing).

As he began to write the story, I figure Lucas realised keeping her around would leave a loose end: if she's there at the end of ROTS, then where is she in ANH? What became of her? And why doesn't Luke ever ask about her?!! My theory there is that originally we were meant to think that she died within living memory of Luke's life. When she died (for whatever reason), he had to go and live with his Aunt and Uncle. He knows he's a Skywalker and remembers his mother. But with the direction the ST and ROTS went in, there wasn't room to tell that part of Padme's story (unless perhaps the PT was more focused on Padme as a central character, which is what I suggested in another thread), so Lucas had to do something different, and that was to neatly tie it up with by having her die shorty after childbirth.

Near to the time ROTS's release, Lucas has been quoted as saying that when he writes, he has to make the current story work, which I'm sure was in direct reference to this situation (along with the continuity issue it also creates with ROTJ). Once he started writing episode III, I think he realised keeping her around was problematic for providing closure to that part of the story. It's not the type of thing you really want to leave open for explanation in a novel, a comic or cartoon series. It has to all be wrapped up within the saga itself, and I think that's why Lucas chose to have Padme die. No loose ends.

 

I meant that while he was shooting ROTS he fully intended for Vader to kill her. But in post production he got nervous and gave the medical droid all that poetic rubbish to say about her being physically fine but not having the will to live.

 

Re-watch the scene and look specifically at Padme's location on the landing pad before and after passing out, then again when Kenobi checks on her. It's not a camera angle thing at all, but I can no longer recall the details surrounding Mustafar. IIRC: the graphic novel for the movie might also shed a little light on that part of the whole scene. If I get some time, I'll dig thru the archives on FrankenVader and see what I can find on the old XP machine.

 

I agree with kylo ren, I could never see him as a sith lord

 

I would get rid of episode I all together. We still need Qui-Gon though, so i would put in flashbacks. I would make two parts of the the clone wars and include the siege on mandalore, ahsoka, more of the clones and the 501st, more of the other jedi, obi and satine, death watch, and actual battles. Truly see the relationship and brotherhood between obi and ani which would make his downfall more tragic. Not to mention bringing in ahsoka and maybe mortis. I would want more of how the actualy republic worked. We do not need pod racing. Making ani's downfall more tragic and truly seeing it slowly happen would have been better than all of episide I. We could do flashbacks of Maul and Qui-Gon and maybe include his force ghost. This is obviously more than a simple creative change, but i really needed to get this out there before i went crazy haha. (please excuse spelling errors i am dyslexic and spell check isnt working.)

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2021 ---

i wish anakin had a brother or sister. i wish more people were made from the force. i think midichlorians are awesome.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2021 ---

old republic is way more interesting than anything else. Thrawn is a better villian than Vader, but Vader is a better overall character. Return of the Jedi is better than A New Hope. Ewoks are worth it. Palpatine also ya know...did the dirty... Not an opinion. Just think about that for a second. Would you??

 

I like midichlorians too. They gave a lot of reasoning to Star Wars.

 

this is the order in which i will make my children watch star wars:

ANH
ESB
TPM
TCW
AoTC
RoTS
SOLO
Rogue1
RoTJ
Mandalorian
ST

Then I will watch whatever comes out between now and then and fit them in there. This way, they have the shock of learning Vader is Luke's father (I will keep that secret with more effort than I put into Santa) and will have the emotions of Anakin coming back to the light with the PT and CW. I want them to have both. Not sure how I will keep them from the pain of the ST though. Plus, hopefully by then we will have an Old republic movie/series )

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2021 ---

i'm glad i've seen a lot of hate towards them i like the science behind them and the fact that it gives Anakin a father ish thing if you know what i mean?

 

Ah, the good ol' Flashback Order! Good times, good times.

 

Yeah for sure. Midichlorians are technically Anakin’s father.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2021 ---

Like your list btw. Its pretty solid

 

the mortis arc sucks. I know one person agrees with me

 

I could see why and I'm not trying to start an argument, but I would love to know why if you would not mind sharing. Just curious cause I have always liked it (not loved it) and would love to see the other perspective

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2021 ---

Thank you ) and yeah fathers are really complicated in SW...

 

Yeah lol

 

i don't like how it staples in the mystical stuff and makes the prophecy less flexible. Additionally, due to the ones not being mentioned at all, besides from abeloth, and she doesn't really count, we know that this arc will be completely nullified, and that nothing matters. They happen to end it in a stupid amnesia gimmick. I also don't like how they showed anakin's power. His power is apparently to make gods sit. And this power has no use on the plot at all throughout the rest of the show. Anyway, it just seems lazy to me. KAWWW!