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Learning from Failure: Is it too late to challenge Rey?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Rayjefury, Dec 7, 2018.

  1. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    What I see is that many people see flaws and failures must occur in some physical action oriented event. Luke fighting and losing to Vader. Anakin fighting and losing to Dooku. They expect that Rey's failure had to be another fight and lose to someone (and also should lose a hand). They arent OK with a mental failure. The mental failure that she was wrong about going to Kylo and turning him. This is sort of similar to the betrayal some feel about Luke in TLJ. Luke needed to be some super Jedi on the battlefield to be true to his character. Not someone who uses the Force to give the remains of the Resistance to escape. It had to be him taking on the First Order by himself.
     
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  2. FN-3263827

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    this is exactly what i'm talking about, @Rayjefury. not all journeys are the same and they aren't going to resonate with everyone in the same way.
     
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  3. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    I just want to offer some pushback on the first part of this. You seem to believe that, for Rey, her failure to turn Ben is a serious personal failure. But is it? I just wonder how she could possibly see it as a serious failure, the effort to convert Ben back to the light, when she has only spent a few minutes of her life in his presence? She doesn't REALLY know Ben. This isn't an old friend, someone she grew up with. Sure, there will be massive consequences for the Galaxy, but I just don't see how she could see this as a failure. How much personal investment could she have in this? Yeah, there was the force mind meld thingy, but I don't know. I just don't see this as that big of a loss for her.

    Earlier you mentioned Luke in ESB. I think you offered the idea that Luke wins the psychological battle with Vader, but I would totally disagree. He is physically and MENTALLY wrecked from that exchange. He is sitting on the Falcon and sobbing "Ben, why didn't you tell me???" His entire world is shattered at that point. Compare that to Rey in TLJ. She is physically ok. She gets off the Supremacy none the worse for having been there physically. Heck she even has the light saber AND the Kyber crystal (why wasn't the crystal destroyed in the explosion???).

    Anyway, I would argue that she hasn't been challenged, or not very well. I like the idea of Rey on the heroine's journey, but think they could have done a lot more to make Rey a more 3d character.
     
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  4. FN-3263827

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    yes, i believe that Rey's failure is a serious personal failure.
    i believe that because it resonates with me, i understand her, and i empathize with her struggle.
    i understand that you want me to somehow quantify the resonance i have with Rey's character in a way that "proves" this belief.
    but that's exactly not how subjective emotional engagement with art/media/text works.

    you feel differently and i don't need you to prove that Rey doesn't work for you. i believe you when you say it.
    not all characters have a universal resonance (or even need to).

    you emphasize that Luke was wrecked in ESB; okay. that's how Luke resonated with you.
    again, you emphasize Rey's lack of physical trauma and the fact that she has "stuff" and say therefore she's not been challenged.
    her story and Luke's have some similarities, but they are not the same.
    they are different people with different backgrounds and motivations.
    as a result their challenges are different too.
     
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  5. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    Relax. I don't need a lesson in how "subjective emotional engagement" works. Thanks for the condescension. I was trying to engage in a conversation, not really arguing that she is bad or whatever. I was hoping for more than "It resonates with me." I was actually hoping for something that would convince me, not for you to qualify that she resonates with you. I get that part. But thanks for trying.

    As for Luke, I wouldn't say he "resonated" with me. I actually was never a Luke fan. But he was wrecked. That's not an opinion. Look at him. He's emotionally destroyed because he feels like he's been lied to by Obi-Wan and perhaps even Yoda, he's been through a physical hell as well. Emotionally, physically he has been through the wringer. If that means he resonated with me, then okay.

    Rey, 10 minutes AFTER she was rejected and emotionally destroyed she's flying around and doing what she does. She doesn't look destroyed to me. Compare that to Luke. If I missed something please let me know. I'll go back and rewatch the film.
     
    #25 Darth Wardawg, Dec 13, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
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  6. FN-3263827

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    look, i'm not trying to be condescending and i'm sorry you are taking it that way.
    i actually thought we were engaged in a conversation.

    my whole premise from the start is that our personal experience of engaging with the work impacts how serious we see Rey's failure. that it's possible for two different people to have two completely different experiences of a character's journey. like you said, you get that part. so i'm not sure, really, what more you wanted me to say in terms of responding to your "pushback". maybe you can clarify?

    i get what you're saying that she's whooping it up in Falcon afterwards, but i attribute that to her denial. she spends a lot of time running away from her emotions in TFA, and in TLJ when she lets herself be vulnerable, she gets stomped. makes sense she would just stuff that down. but at the very end of the film, she's the one who is actually feeling hopeless. and it's Leia who has to reassure her that it's going to be all right.
     
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  7. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    I guess I didn't see her in the end of the film as feeling hopeless. Maybe it was the way Daisy portrayed here there at the end. Perhaps I just focused on her whooping it up in the Falcon and didn't catch her emotions with Leia. She seemed reflective to me at the end, but not devastated. I saw Luke as devastated in the Falcon in ESB. I guess it's just the portrayal of the actors and the way they were directed.
     
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  8. FN-3263827

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    which is also maybe up to our individual experience. obviously i went into the ending thinking: man, she is devastated (her face on the Supremacy tells it all). and that's what i saw: her sitting there reflective about Finn, happy for their getaway, but despairing over the fact that she truly believed turning Ben was their big hope that she personally failed. she doesn't see a plan now. she doesn't see possibility. she sees a broken lightsaber (that in itself a physical metaphor for her failure) and just a handful of survivors that got out by the skin of their teeth. Leia tells her: "we have everything we need" and touches her hands (brings them together). it's a visual metaphor for "what is broken can be mended": that's true of not just the lightsaber, but of Rey herself.

    i agree that TLJ does end on a much more hopeful note than ESB does (i think it has to: Luke just sacrificed himself for the Resistance and we need to know that sacrifice was meaningful), but overall i'm not all that chuffed about making correlations between movies or characters.
    Rey is Rey and Luke is Luke. and what lies before them is, again, similar, but different.
     
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  9. Darth Wardawg

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    I get that. Like I said, to me she didn't really fail and didn't look like she failed. I would have to agree, it is simply about our different experiences and interpretations of the acting/portrayal.

    Hopefully IX will be a film that isn't nearly as controversial as TLJ. Hey one can hope right? :)
     
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  10. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    The argument you are making would also work well for saying that Rey experienced a serious personal failure when she accidentally opened the Rathtar gates in TFA (which also ultimately had a positive outcome). There is always room for interpretation and differing perspectives, but (I would argue) it has to take place within the spirit of the discussion.

    Ben was never Rey's student. He was already corrupted when she met him. Hers was a gambit that she undertook out of desperation because she couldn't convince Luke to go. In that she tried to do something and did not succeed, yes she failed. That this represents a serious personal failure, I think, is a position that will not withstand much academic scrutiny.
     
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  11. Trooper212

    Trooper212 Rebel Official

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    Great way to put it.
     
  12. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Resident Sand Hater

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    Rey faced the same struggle that Luke and Kylo/Ben have faced in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi: dwelling on the past. In my opinion, that has been her ultimate struggle in these films so far. She stayed on Jakku for so long because she was deluding herself into believing that her parents were going to come back for her. Rey even refuses to move on with her life three times in the film: she says that she’ll only drop Finn and BB-8 off with the Resistance and is determined to go back to Jakku; she turns down Han’s offer to join him and Chewie on the Millenium Falcon and is determined to go back to Jakku; and when the Force awakens within her after touching the Skywalker lightsaber and talking to Maz, she is still determined to flee back to Jakku.

    Even after she’s called back into action by the First Order’s arrival on Takodana, she still holds on to her longing for her parents, even looking up to both Han Solo and Luke Skywalker as parental figures as Kylo says. She goes into the Dark Side cave on the Ahch-To island in a desperate attempt to find out the identity of her parents, only to be presented with herself because herself is the only family she has. Seeing this upsets Rey and drives her and Kylo closer together, which leads to her willingly going to Snoke’s flagship. After killing Snoke, Kylo gets her to admit the harsh truth that her parents were nobody and by proxy, she was nobody too. (Though he is sure to add that she isn’t a nobody to him, which I feel was both genuine and manipulative.) Despite being in a poor emotional state at this point, Rey refuses to turn to the Dark Side with him.

    When the Resistance survivors from Crait are sitting aboard the Millenium Falcon, Rey is surrounded by who her real family is: Finn, Poe, BB-8, Leia, Chewie. In fact, when her and Poe first meet, he already knows who she is, showing that just because her parents are nobodies that she was one too. So while Rey hasn’t had any particularily difficult physical struggles (she has had to fight for survival on a backwater planet for most of her life, not to mention getting lucky here and there) nor mental struggles (she hasn’t had any difficulty believing that she can perform things with the Force, unlike Luke in ANH or ESB), but she has had a struggle of identity. She has faced it in The Force Awakens, by having Maz tell her that her parents were never coming back, and in The Last Jedi, she admits to herself that her parents were nobodies and also had Kylo adding in that they were filty junk traders who sold her off for drinking money. If and how she faces this struggle again in Episode 9 next year remains to be seen, but I feel like she has grown to be confident in who she is and is not desperate for a family anymore.
     
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  13. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    I would argue that Rey encounters several challenges throughout the course of The Last Jedi:
    1. Luke doesn’t exactly make things easy for her. She doesn’t exactly succeed at making him come back. She spends much of the movie trying to convince him to do this and leaves before he actually decides to return to the fight. While she may be indirectly responsible for him ultimately reconnecting with the Force and returning to fight Kylo, getting to that point was certainly no easy task.
    2. Rey failed at bringing Kylo back to the light. As others have said, the compassion and empathy she feels toward Ben is something she must overcome in Episode IX (although it could be argued she did at the end of The Last Jedi when she closed the door on him).
    3. Perhaps the most obvious one, but Rey coming to terms with the fact that her parents didn’t love her, abandoned her and aren’t alive was extremely difficult for her. She’s spent the bulk of the Sequel Trilogy trying to convince herself that her parents did love her. Like Kylo said, she was looking for parental figures in the Original Trilogy heroes even though, deep down, she knew they weren’t. Emotionally, she wasn’t ready to accept that her parents were scumbags and had to overcome that.
    A lot of people have compared Rey’s journey in the sequels to Luke’s journey in the Original Trilogy, and I agree, but feel like Rey’s journey is far more emotional than Luke’s. Rey’s situation was different in that she was living as a scavenger and was forced to fight for survival. Luke lived on a farm and didn’t need to have the fighting skills she had. His transformation over the course of the Original Trilogy was far more physical than emotional (although he certainly grew in both areas). Rey’s is the other way around — she grows in physical and emotional strength, with the latter being the primary focus of her character arc.

    Just because Rey doesn’t encounter the same challenges as previous heroes doesn’t mean the challenges she faces are any less valid.
     
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  14. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Rey is supposed to be training to become the next Jedi, there is only one left... and I'm being told that her challenge on her hero's journey is her attempt to convince two other people to change their minds? That's HER personal challenge?
     
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  15. SegNerd

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    Recently, I posted about how Kylo Ren has never won a lightsaber duel - this thread is, partially, the flip side of that, which is that Rey has never lost a lightsaber duel (although she has possibly failed in other ways).

    I don't see how IX could possibly end with Kylo triumphing over Rey (that's an ending that would probably anger many people), so unless they face each other multiple times in IX, it would indeed be pretty hard to find an opportunity for Kylo to defeat Rey at this point.
     
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  16. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    Instead of just citing an effect (lost hand), what was the cause? It was rashness to action, right? Luke abandoned his training to help someone in trouble, and failed to do so. Rey abandoned her training to help someone in trouble, and failed to do so. How are they not the same, with the exception of losing a limb? If Rey would've lost a hand in the duel with Kylo, would that be what it takes to truly fail? One must have a limb amputate or else there is no real failure in life, no real challenge unless the result of failure is amputation? It makes me wonder how so many of my tests came back with a big red F on them, while I still have all my limbs.

    How is that not the same with Luke? His failure was, what? Losing the fight to Vader? Vader was a more skilled opponent, so the fact Luke lost had more to do with Vader? What exactly is Luke's flaw? What is his challenge in ESB?

    Actually wasn't it Yoda who did that? I'm not sure heading to the tree to burn the Jedi texts is a sign that a man is out of his funk.

    How so? She was completely at the mercy of Snoke.

    What were the positives/negatives of the results of Luke's/Anakin's challenge?

    In TLJ she said she saw it. Isn't that a reason in and of itself? It was reason enough for her to rashly turn herself over to Snoke in TLJ, why would the reason itself still not apply. Perhaps she feels she needs to give him time to take the first steps himself before she intervenes a second time without rashness of action? Perhaps there's something she will learn about Ben that provides her a renewed reason?

    How are those things not on par with Luke/Anakin? Anakin was podracing at youth, something impossible for humans. Luke did what was called "impossible even for a computer" in the trench run. Anakin whipped off clairvoyant skills "it's a speeder, a ship, a cup" with no training. Luke and Anakin engaged in dogfights with trained pilots (Luke being so good that Vader automatically knew Luke's preternatural piloting skills could only be the result of being strong with the force). Luke destroyed TIEs with the Falcon gunnery (how is Rey's gunnery skill 'unprecedented'?). Luke (unlike Rey) is seen deflecting multiple blaster shots while blindfolded (completely unprecedented) with no training at all - which would you think is the more difficult task: shooting bluk objects without a blindfold, or, deflecting multiple energy bolts with a sword while blindfolded? Luke went toe-to-toe with the Dark Lord of the Sith with no combat experience whatsoever, while Rey is shown to have been experienced in combat from youth.

    Luke deflects blaster bolts while blindfolded with no training and no experience with a saber-like weapon. Luke dogfights with Vader, a force-user with tons more experience. Luke goes toe-to-toe with the Dark Lord of the Sith with no saber-like combat experience. Luke makes the shot in the trench run which is impossible even for a computer. Yet, people want to dogpile on Rey like she's the OP. I hate to say it but the more I see of it, the more the only different in the two becomes increasingly apparent: one is a girl.

    Could be a failure of imagination on your part.

    What did Luke want? What was Luke's "strong desire" in order to be challenged?

    When you're sure you can do something, then fail to do it - you don't think that has psychological ramifications? Imagine a religious person convinced they can convert someone "evil" in a dangerous area (we can even say they saw it in a vision, since that is what Rey says, she saw Kylo would turn), they go to the area and the person doesn't convert and instead becomes even worse and then turns on them and they nearly escape with their life. If you say you don't know how that is the equivalent to losing a personal psychological battle then... I doubt your honesty.

    What was all Luke did?

    She saw it with the force during their connection.

    He seems to be smiling big at the end of ESB. Luke smiles, Rey smiles. What's the difference. Yes, Luke lost a hand, Rey didn't. And what else? Luke found out he was lied to by someone. Okay. Was this Luke's challenge? To find out Kenobi lied? Luke acted rashly, put himself into a dangerous situation, got in a fight and escaped with his life. Rey did the same thing. If Luke was MENTALLY wrecked by hearing a truth he didn't want to hear, then Rey was also MENTALLY wrecked by hearing a truth she didn't want to hear.

    Luke's challenge being?

    It wasn't a gambit taken out of desparation, she saw it in a force connection. That is why she was sure Kylo would turn, and why Kylo said the same about her.

    No offense, but calling your scrutiny "academic" is an incredible leap of sophistry. Imagine a religious person convinced they can travel to some islands and convert the people there. They leave friends behind after declaring their intent to "surely convert them". They fail to do so. The people become even worse, and turn on the religious person who escapes with their life. That would be a serious psychological failure.

    What was Luke's personal challenge? To convince one other person to change his mind? If so, I guess Rey's personal challenge would be twice as difficult.
     
    #36 metadude, Dec 17, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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  17. Sparafucile

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    First, with Vader Luke engaged in a fight, forcefully, where Vader seemed prepared to talk. Luke was out to avenge his father and slay his killer.

    Luke defied his master(s) on Dagobah. He made a decision on a minimal of understanding and a source of information that didn't give him the full picture. He rushed to meet the man who killed his father with intent to avenge the death of his father and rescuing his friends. In his hubris, he learned the truth, that Vader was his father, that his training thus far was woefully inadequate to challenge him, it cost him his hand and shattered his understanding of matters to the core, learning that his old master had if not outright lied, at least generously manipulated the truth. He learned that one of the most evil people in the galaxy was his father. All this was clear in the movie, no need for guess work, creating of head canon, looking for hints in the actors eyes for the smallest flicker of an emotional response that could maybe possibly somehow in some roundabout fashion suggest more to the story. The only doubt after that movie was the veracity of Vader's claim. Luke failed his masters, and put his life and soul in danger to save friends that he did nothing for (Han still got frozen in carbonite, Lando, Chewie and Leia would still have escaped with the droids without his involvement) because he rushed headlong despite the advice of his teachers. The only positive we learn from those interactions at that time was that he learned the truth about his father, but that wasn't clear at the end of ESB. He hadn't fallen up at this point. We didn't see a laughing, triumphant Luke at the end. He smiles at his sister to reassure her very briefly as they somberly look at the galaxy, quiet and with many unanswered questions. There is no sense of victory from the good guys at the end of ESB, you get a relief they survived to fight another day, and a loss of a friend.

    If Yoda could have gotten Luke back in the swing of things, he would have years ago. He needed Rey to strip away the armor, tear down the walls, whatever metaphor you prefer, to get Luke connected to the world again. Have stakes in what was happening. Rey succeeded in doing these things. Her mission was to get Luke back in the fight to help the resistance. What does Luke do? He gets back in the fight to help the resistance. Mission accomplished I would say.

    She was at the mercy of Snoke, conveniently enough so that Kylo could prepare and execute his betrayal of his distracted master, who had to spend so much focus on Rey he couldn't perceived the actions of his apprentice in the same room. Rey demanded that kind of attention.

    Anakin and Luke follow a similar path, both lead in some ways by their hubris and humbled by their failure. Rey leaves a flawed master to make contact with Kylo (I'll never understand her seeking out Kylo at this point, it doesn't make any sense to me, leaving Luke though made sense). The closest similarity to Luke and Anakin is that Rey had enough hubris to think she could reach Kylo where Luke, Leia and Han have failed. At this point I see this more as a writing problem then compelling and logical story telling. I don't know what the mirrors had to do with Kylo, or her interpreting in that he needed seeking out. I do and did understand how Luke facing Vader, a version of himself in the cave had to do with the story and his decisions. It was later further clarified with the events of RotJ, but it felt related even in ESB. The click and the mirrors not so much. I guess that's the challenge RJ left JJ to solve for IX, how to make that relevant. Anakin was on a mission as a Jedi, his involvement was built into the story, he was trained for this for more than a decade, and he was following his master. Anyways, all that to say Rey's behavior after she leaves Luke seems motivated more by the writer needing his heroine to be here or there to drive the story forward more than a natural reasoning on Rey's part to progress there based on motivations provided by actual events. It feels forced, at least for me.

    Unless if you're talking about the briefest blink and you'll miss it moments of Rey sitting alone and thinking. I took that moment of her pondering how things got to this point, where the whole of the resistance could fit in a small tramp freighter. I could not for the life of me read more into that with her laughing seconds later. We did not get a "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" in agony over and over again as we as a fans and Luke as the hero struggled with the new revelation. To suggest those two moments are on par is erroneous. One is clear and one requires a chapters worth of head canon to reach. Rey does not seem devastated. Nor should she be. Humbled? Sure. Sheepish/foolish. Yeah, okay. Beyond that though, a bad guy decided to stay a bad guy. She decided to stay a good guy. She can walk away knowing that at least the more powerful bad guy is dead now. That's gotta be satisfying on some level. She had no reason to believe so fully she could change Kylo beyond some Skype time.

    I don't understand why Chewie would be taking orders from Rey to go on a suicide mission after just recently seeing the father and his best friend of said villain get killed at the villains hands? Snoke must have been affecting Chewie's mind too, I guess. After Rey decided to leave Luke, Chewie should have probably brought Rey back to Leia.

    Luke misses in the turret more than he hits. Luke receives direction from Obi-Wan from the lightsaber practice to his final shot on the DS. Now that FG can affect real life outcomes, maybe Luke didn't nudge the torpedo, maybe Kenobi did. Maybe Luke didn't deflect the lightsabers on his own, maybe Kenobi assisted him somehow. If that's true, at least there's a tangible reason to believe it possible, due to Ben's voice and presence in both those scenes. He helped Luke believe, and that opened him up as a conduit to Ben. Rey doesn't get such benefit, she does it all on her own, including three shooting Ties in a turret for the first time without missing. Luke and Rey are not even comparable in this. The only argument you have which you'll probably fall back to is that Rey can do it because she innocently believes in all of it. No training required, the Jedi order had it wrong for thousands of generations, they only needed their students to believe in it like Rey does. I have problems with that, but if you don't it's pointless to keep discussing, because our views are too far in opposition to meet a middle ground or even an understanding. Not to mention that this is all conjecture on your theory, wishful thinking to make it work as it is not at any point said to be the case in either ST movies.

    Anyways, I think I covered most of your points. I just don't buy into it and you do, and it could very be my fault as in my inability to suspend my disbelief. I can accept that. They extended canon to the point where it's too large for me to swallow. I see the parallels between Rey and Luke/Anakin as tenuous at best. You enjoy it and that's great, but that doesn't require for me to like it, or for you to convince me to like it. You don't need to argue the OT and PT for the reasoning of the ST if it works for you. It doesn't for me and that's okay. Some people will read out posts and I'm guessing no one will change their minds. It's all subject matter that's been covered multiple times on different threads to no avail. We're not breaking new ground, we're opening old wounds or at the very least simply reaffirming our beliefs. Enjoy your SW and mtfby.
     
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  18. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    emphatically no.
    her challenge is to accept that she is the hero that the Resistance needs. not Luke, not Ben. her.
     
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  19. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    And others, such as @FN-3263827 or @Trev

    I'd say all the problems many - myself included - have, start here: her arc in 8 is far too similar to her arc in 7.
    Not identical, but too similar.
    In 7 she admits that her parents are never coming back to Maz. Something she knew but wasn't ready to admit.
    In 8 she adimits that they were bad people to Kylo. Something she knew but wasn't ready to admit.

    Not identical, but very very close. The same can be said about Finn.

    So sure: for some people it worked, because they focus on the differences.
    For others didn't, because they focus on the similarities.
    After so many months, I guess we can only agree to disagree.
    So how to move forward the debate?
    Let's try to do it...

    About failure and the phisical evidence of it...
    I would argue, first, that failing is not equal to misinterpreting.
    What defines failure / victory, is whether or not a goal is achieved.
    Therefore, a misinterpretation can surely led to a failure.. but it may not.
    It can only be an obstacle along the way.

    In Rey's case, she is sent to Luke, to convince him to come back.
    Things don't go exactly as planned, as she (and Leia, etc...) hoped for, but in the end Luke comes back. One way or another.
    And it's not that she doesn't play any part in that. It's Luke's choice. But still... something did happen.

    Turning Kylo back to the light wasn't the "goal".
    It's a tool, a B-Plan, to help the resistance, because Luke was still refusing to do so.
    At least that is what she says. More than once.

    Then again, things don't go as she wished for, but...once that is clear (that Kylo is not going to help the resistance), she flies on Crait.
    She's selfconfidente, she's smiling and enjoying the shooting, she has not hesitation or doubt about her strength and powers whatsoever
    and she saves the good guys.
    Mission accomplished. And like I said, Luke comes back too. Mission one accomplished too.

    What's the failure? I don't really know.

    One may be, that she didn't receive any training. Or too little training...
    But we're told by Yoda, that she doesn't need any. So?
    Another may be that in process she helped Kylo Ren in becoming the new Supreme Leader.
    Ok. But what does that change in the great scheme of things?
    For the broom boy - that represents people living in that galaxy - that the Supreme Leader is named Kylo Ren, not Snoke, doesn't change a iota
    Some may even take that as an half victory... That instead of Snoke plus Kylo, now there is only Kylo to deal with.

    In addition, Luke and Anakin loosing their hands, it's surely something more "empirical", real... but it is also, something symbolic.
    And that's the point.
    I don't care if they suffer phisically or not. I can be ok with Rey not suffering any phisical conseguence. Because that's not the point. I am interested in the symbolism behind the hands Luke and his father loose.

    And at the end of Emipire, Luke escapes, but he had just lernt who his father really is and that shatters his self confidence.
    Is he really destinated to follow his father footsteeps?
    His destiny? To take the path his father took?
    We leave him at this stage of his journey.
    And we leave Anakin, at the end of Clones, knowing not only that he's got married but that he killed men, women and children... out of rage.
    Who's this guy, really?
    And those questions help to set the stage of ep. III and VI.

    When it comes to Rey, I don't see a interestingly set.

    That because, she's a nobody. Ok. And we're told that's not a problem. And in fact... it's not.
    Why does it have to be a problem?
    Luke knowing who his father was, was "the" problem for the reasons above.
    Anakin's rage, or attachment, was his problem.
    What's the problem for Rey?
    What are her stakes? How/what she learns in VIII affects her... coming into IX?

    Add to that what Leia says to her "we have everything we need".
    What is left for her to overcome?

    She has to defeat the bad guy, or to turn him to light side. Obviously. But what are her personal, inner, stakes in this process?
    What can it be her personal, further growth? What does she have to learn... still?
    What's the "dragon" inside her (not outside) that she has to defeat or to bend and why?

    For this reason, I don't see TLJ as a deeping of her psychology.
    I see it as a further dig into this specific issue/point, that is always the same (her lineage).
    If I have to draw her arc, we are still the same point, that has became more detailed.

    That because, she finally admitting who their parentes were, is not something that troubles her in
    a significant way as discovering something else (whatever else, even not about her lineage),
    she didn't know about for real, at all, would have done.
    Something to put her into question, not to solve a question. That would have been... problematic for her coming into IX.
    There is not problem here. Not one of this kind.

    That said,

    I've read long ago about Mardok's heroine journey.
    Big problem n°1 - that doesn't have to do anything with RJ and TLJ and Murdok's efforts - unfortunately there's not so much literature
    to use as sources, as instances. Just because the habit is largely to give a woman a S-hero's journey.
    That's the problem Murdok's work underlines... indeed.
    So we are in a "experimental" camp.

    That said, I would argue, that an examplum of Mardok's heroine's journey... is Leia.
    Especially in Empire.

    The point being that a woman, who not a S-hero but an heroine, shoud learn to integrate her masculine side.
    Her "animus". Thus to become more proattive, but she has to do so (to hold the difference S-hero/ Heroine) without... becoming "like" a man.

    That is why Mardok speaks about "coping strategies" (copied from men) that the heroine applies at first.
    The idea being that just because a woman is used to see men playing the part of the heroes, she tries too hard to imitate them.
    But in her journey, she descoveres that those strategies don't fit her. And because of that, she finds her own way. Her "balance" we may say.

    Leia is a good exemplum of that, because (as many real women in similar circunstances) she's a woman
    with a great interest in politics, and politics is a field "traditionally" dominated by/associated to men.

    So she tends too be a little bit icy, or not that much sympathetic, a little too much judgmental - we may better say - with those who do not care
    about politics how much she does, because of that. Because she's trying too hard to imitate men.
    And that's almost equal to wear a mask, if you want. That is not a true self.
    But her relationship with Han helps her to find a... balance.
    She learns how to be proattive, without being too much judgmental etc...

    In another thread we were talking about Scarlett O'Hara.... now, I won't say that she's a S-Hero.
    She's not. But she surely is someone who fails in integrating in a healfy way her masculinity.
    She's an anti-heroine, maybe. Not a S-hero nor a heroine. And that's the beuty of that character.

    Rey... I don't really know.
    I have to think about it. I really have...

    Becase her trying to find a father figure in whorever she can, that can be a point pro to an heorine's journey. She's looking, in fact, for a man to imitate. Or her trying to do with Kylo what Luke did with his father... yeah... that too.
    But still - beside the fact that a father figure is pivotal for both women and men to definy the so called "Super-Ego" and that
    the super-ego is pivotal for a hero-shero-heroine no matter what (for questions that's too complicated to discuss here) -
    I don't actually see her being too much of a man and failing because of that... it's not that the problem was - for instance - that she's
    was too aggressive, or too jugmental.

    Quite the contrary: it looks that her being too naive (or "too" compassionate in that moment) with Kylo, was her flaw, her mistake.

    Unless her mistake was being too jugmental towards Luke... but I am not sure (I really am not sure) that was the purpose of the movie...
    I don't get it.

    Maybe we really need to see IX and what JJ is going to add to her story.
     
    #39 lealt, Dec 17, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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  20. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    That's precisely why I don't think Rey's arc is the focus of this trilogy, although her story is still being told. It's like an extended first act, with some elements of the 2nd, but certainly not all of it. They can wrap it up in the next 2 movies if they chose to, but I don't think they will. I think in Rey we'll see her story stretched beyond the ST, that her ESB hasn't happened yet. Now it may happen in IX and leaves us waiting in anticipation for X, but that doesn't mean they can't wrap up Kylo and the Skywalker saga after IX.

    I don't know if this is happening due to errors from different visions of different directors, poor planning and too much freedom, the writers not wanting Rey to ever seem weak, or if it is by design so they have a important story to carry from the ST into the next trilogy. Rey's ESB could come when she tries to re-establish a Jedi school, which would make her journey quite different. Even if it is one of the first few less flattering possibilities I suggest, the next writer/producer will likely come in and give more weight and challenge to Rey's story to make the overall story more relevant. They can avoid it this time because of Kylo and Luke, but once they're gone, then it opens it up to focus on Rey.
     
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