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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

?

Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    192 vote(s)
    57.1%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    148 vote(s)
    44.0%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    200 vote(s)
    59.5%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    181 vote(s)
    53.9%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    128 vote(s)
    38.1%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    123 vote(s)
    36.6%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    176 vote(s)
    52.4%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    219 vote(s)
    65.2%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    147 vote(s)
    43.8%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    225 vote(s)
    67.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Oh right. I understand what you mean. I haven’t read all the previous posts about such speculations. I agree that you should not fill gaps with something that isn’t expressed or hinted at in the films.

    For me the problem with the hut scene is that it is too short and doesn’t delve enough in Luke’s inability to help Ben. I understand he feels hopeless, ill-equipped and unable to combat Ben’s darkness. I would have liked to have seen maybe a vision of Kylo Ren’s cruelty, something so personal and dear and sacred to Luke that killing Ben was the only bearable option... a vision of kylo killing Han, Leia, maybe his own son, a child. Very dark stuff, I admit.
     
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  2. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    I actually agree with a lot of this. Because by showing so little of Kylo Ren's actual training under Luke and Dark Side tendancies first hand, it appears to us, the audience, that Luke is giving up on him way too fast, on such a limited basis. I don't think I'd have such a big problem with this scene if we had been provided a better understanding of Luke's relationship with Kylo up till that point, how they're training had been going, what kind of dangerous signs Luke had been seeing, etc.

    I have a friend who actually used to defend TLJ, and has only recently come around to disliking it (his official stance is that it's a decent action movie, but a terrible Star Wars movie), and he actually brought up something that really made me think: what if we saw Kylo's troubled Jedi Training in more detail? He actually talked about how great it would've been if Rian had actually downplayed the length and magnitude of some of the films' sequences in Canto Bight or aboard the crumbling Rebel Fleet to better showcase Kylo's gradual downfall in the form of flashbacks. You could show Kylo struggling to integrate among the other students, showing aggressive or violent tendencies, maybe have him echo the kind of uncontrollable rage he displays in TFA, to indicate to the audience where he's going. You could show a particularly gruesome incident with Kylo losing his temper with another student, maybe use that projectile grip he used in the beginning of TFA on the student or on Luke, only to have Kylo to stop and realize what he's doing....and then insert Snoke's voice, to better illuminate on how he's economizing on Kylo's emotional weakness and easily-manipulated feelings. My friend came up with that in a passing conversation we were having, and he's not even a writer or a massive Star Wars fan to begin with.

    And while we were talking, I actually came up with another idea: What if Luke's failure to save Kylo wasn't a recycled impulsive reaction to a vision where he contemplates murder like in the film, but instead his repeated attempts to save Kylo is what pushes him towards the Dark Side? Maybe that success with Vader brewed a self-righteousness inside of Luke, a blind naivety that anyone could be turned to the Light Side with pressure and diligence---and these repeated attempts would only brew self-conscious discomfort and pressure on Kylo, the determination not to end up like his grandfather. Luke's entire crusade to save Kylo could be the thing that hastens his downfall...and this hastening of the future through repeated attempts to prevent it would mirror Anakin's failure too: where his attempt to save Padme ended up killing her. This would achieve a much more believable flaw for Luke to have after ROTJ, one that turns his greatest accomplishment into something cancerous, that works against him, and costs him everything in the end. Through this, Rian would gain the same self-doubt and misery in Luke where he's questioning everything he's done up till that point, while at the same time achieving narrative poetry with Luke echoing the mistakes of his father....in a similar, but narratively-unique fashion.

    This is something people really need to understand about why TLJ disappointed dissenters like me and my friend. There were so many more effective and creative avenues that could've been used to establish the same emotional weight and narrative goals that Rian Johnson was aiming for. He just used the least effective and creative ones, in my eyes and the eyes of many.

    The squandered potential of these new films is one of the wounds that stings the most, along with the immense lack of creativity and poor planning on behalf of LFL and the Story Group.
     
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  3. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I'd actually argue that Luke was always relatable because:

    1. We have all been youth looking for our place in the grand scheme of things, feeling like there's something greater out there than a mundane life, not fully understanding how the world around us works but trying to find our way
    2. He had to fight through adversity to find that place and that "greater something", it wasn't just handed to him, he had to work for it, and pay a price for it. That is an inherently human journey

    Interesting that you think this was a "bad call". Most people try to defend what I refer to as the "reimagining" of Luke (in particular with what happened in the hut), as an impulse (I suspect in an attempt to avoid the character profile distortion that results if Luke is actually thinking about killing Kylo - which he absolutely is).

    I think the "bad call" was going into the hut to sneak a peak into Kylo's mind instead of confronting him directly. Seeing something he didn't like an igniting the lightsaber to take action is pre-meditation, and in a completely different ballpark as "bad call". If I walk into a bank and pull a gun out to rob it, even for the briefest of seconds, but change my mind, very few people are going to look at that as merely a "bad call". The sin here is Luke even thinking the thought. There is no basis for it. If this is the direction they wanted to go, they needed to dedicate a lot more storytelling bandwidth towards Luke's fall (because that's what it is). This can't come from out of nowhere, as it appears; it needs to have some substance.

    I don't imagine it would not be that difficult to craft a story where Luke's belief in the goodness in Kylo combined with the rigidity of the Jedi ideology (in suppressing even emotions that are considered healthy) actually precipitates the problem and exacerbates it. Luke skulking into a hut, to secretly read someone's minds, and becoming "frightened" so that he seriously contemplates murder as an option, was always a stretch. But Rian imagined it was the only way to engender empathy for Kylo that (in the grand scheme of things) I'm not sure required any for this particular trilogy to work or have depth.
     
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  4. Sparafucile

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    I think this is what a lot of us needed to be able to accept Luke as portrayed in TLJ. In my experience, learning something new to mastering it generally goes something like this.

    At first you do stupid things (defying your master and running off into danger) which prove to be mistakes. You learn from those mistakes and stop doing them, making safer and better decisions. You improve, and get so good that at some point you can make the same decision as you did when impulsive and green, but are able to get positive results, due to a greater understanding of how those actions failed to begin with. In "real life" that's generally how things come about. In a fantasy, which generally hold to some core "real life" rules while doing the spectacular, this usually remains constant.

    In TLJ I feel Luke never attained any mastery. He's essentially just an older version of ESB Luke. It's like RotJ Luke never existed, or was a very fleeting moment never to be attained again. Now I can accept that, but I don't feel that JJ or RJ really explained that in any way. They just showed us this broken Luke who made a massive mistake and never offered any explanation as to how he could have reasonably made this mistake. At least nothing specific.

    Now, if Luke had lived, I could hold out hope that they kept the rationale cryptic because it would have greater meaning in IX. Since he's most likely coming back as a FG, it's still possible, but I think it'll loose a little something coming post mortem. However, I get the impression they've already told that story and won't be going back to satisfy the likes of me and others like me.

    I needed to know more about how Snoke corrupted Ben under Leia, Han and Luke's nose. I think that part of the story is core to Kylo, who's second only to Rey in this story (and some could debate that) and thus that explanation needs to be told. I also feel I need to know what Kylo did or think or dream or whatever for Luke to come to react by igniting his lightsaber standing above the sleeping child's bed. I need that context for me to be able to move forward with this story, otherwise I'm stuck on it just not making any sense to me.

    The truth of the matter for me, is that I was never on the Mary Sue bandwagon after TFA, as I expected there to be a solid explanation given in TLJ. The fact that I never got one from the movie (and the book one of Force Download is brutal imo) has my hopes very low on them coming up with anything satisfactory or good to justify Luke's actions in TLJ. I hope there is, but past action on this story group tells me it isn't likely I'll get it.

    To me this is the most frustrating thing about TLJ. Yes, I can make the leaps and fill in the gaps and make everything make sense if I really wanted to and gave the effort to create a good deal of head canon (at least double than I've ever had to do in any other SW, and on multiple issues). However, I did some of that in TFA, assuming Rey had learned and had her memories blocked to some extent and Kylo's mind rape somehow unraveled the mind block and allowed Rey to access her memories and past training (or something along those lines, it didn't have to be exact, but I needed something). That didn't come to pass, instead they went with Force Download :rolleyes:, but not only that, didn't even bother to mention it in the movie.

    So now, based on that, I expect the story group to do something similar for Luke and his portrayal in TLJ. Which is why I'm still not invested in EPIX and am mostly a downer on the whole ST. I just can't wait for this mess to be over so I can look forward to something concrete that is SW again.
     
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  5. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Whereas I accept there was an unsatisfying shortcut made with Luke’s story in that particular scene and some others in the island, I’m still capable to enjoy the movie for what it has brought to the character development of Rey and Kylo, who now are the characters in SW I root for. I, however, hope somebody writes the story of how Luke lost faith in Kylo, the details of how Snoke influenced Kylo and what Leia and Han were doing when all these was happening. Maybe this is material for a book?

    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 1, 2018 ---
    I actually like this a lot. I would have liked the film alluding to this flaw of the Jedi order in this context. Maybe seeing Luke commiserating with Kylo and at the same time being absolutely and utterly terrified of him... This would have helped the audience better understand that fateful visit to the hut and the lightsaber fiasco.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 1, 2018 ---
    I personally have ignored that idea of Rey learning Jedi saber moves from her “conversations” with Kylo. I know that it was mentioned in the novelisation but for me it’s easier to accept that Rey is good at fighting, full stop. At the end of the day, being a Jedi is not about fighting skills or aggression (something of what Rey has a great deal) but about making decisions, difficult ones, for the better good. It is about combining strength with temperament and attitude. Rey is not there yet. She may never want to get there either!
     
    #4565 Kylocity, Aug 1, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
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  6. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    This + The Force.
    I ifigure miraculous powers and Force dualism combined with the savior mentality of an oppressed galaxy helped elevate the character and stories to myth level.
    Jesus figure more than sports figure perhaps?
    Yeah and I feel like there's more to know here.
    Maybe a Force mind-read is more reliable than a vision?

    It's too convoluted to be likely but for all we know there could be some Force trickery going on and Snoke planted things in Ben's head (unawares) that Luke's probing unlocked. To be clear that is not speculative head-canon I have to carry in order to make sense of some incoherent plot!
    Just spitballing here. :rolleyes:
    I think the similarities are only really stark when the scenes are reduced to Luke facing a threat, changing his mind, and his motivations simplified to acting rashly out of fear for loved ones.

    FWIW I think there are plenty of differences between those scenes that aren't often acknowledged and those differences are telling.
    Yoda call out.gif

    :p;)
    Take exhibit A ↓
    What is it you know about Luke Skywalker that the rest of us don't that somehow makes him immune to the Dark Side exploiting his greatest weakness in that situation?
    Although these two suggestions are implied by dialogue in the film I think your implication about showing rather than just telling is a fair critique.

    Maybe showing negative aspects of young Ben would risk undercutting the impact of showing “a frightened boy whose master had failed him” if the empathy card gets leveraged for Ben?

    But man, training these male Skywalker's must be a Master's worse nightmare if their track record for arrogance, recklessness, moodiness is anything to go by! :eek:
    I thought pre-meditation requires plotting in advance?
    If so I didn't notice the film presenting any evidence to support that unless I'm missing something.
    Maybe if Jedi Knights only carried their sabers into battles and Luke didn't refer to a briefest moment of pure instinct it would sound more plausible.
    We sure jumped straight into his story at a time of crisis and weakness without much else to go by until the end.
    Well we may not have seen much of it but we saw some mastery - Force manipulation at an amazing level and mastery over his greatest enemy (himself and his Dark Side).
    I also feel myself wanting this.
    I have enough to carry me through the story but this is a guilty desire. :oops:

    Edit:grammar
     
    #4566 Moral Hazard, Aug 1, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
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  7. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    People hate the Prequels but one thing that they did a good job demonstrating is that there was a flaw in the Jedi way of thinking and it WAS partially responsible for the raise of Darth Vader. I honestly thought the the new ST was going to be Luke figuring out that it was flawed and creating the New Order (and attendant philosophy) that Rey would would implement and ultimately lead the Order back to prominence. Losing Ben, would have been the catalyst for Luke to see the pattern of Jedi failing their students, realizing there was something wrong, and going to Ach-To to figure it out because if he didn't the pattern would just keep repeating generation after generation.

    But note in the prequels, Lucas doesn't make any of the Jedi we know and love (Yoda and Obi wan) into villains in an attempt to generate empathy for Anakin. The empathy exists because we see his relationship to his mother, how he has nothing but her, and how suffering traumatic loss transforms him. We understand why he gave into hate early (when Shmi dies), and how someone with very little to start with, sees power as a remedy to avoiding future loss. We can feel empathy for Anakin, even if some parts of the trilogy and the acting are a bit clunky, without having Obi Wan consider murder. And we could still see how the Jedi's stoicism and inability to address Anakin's emotional needs hastened his fall.

    Was Luke capable of losing a student? Sure. Yoda did (Count Dookou) and Obi Wan did (Anakin), there's a pedigree for Jedi Masters losing students to the Dark Side. It's the WAY Luke lost Ben that just won't ever ring true (for me). I can see where he can be a flawed teacher, a flawed master, even someone who quits the Jedi altogether, but not someone that contemplates murder.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 1, 2018 ---
    It does, but how much in advance, I guess, is a matter of perspective. The pre-meditation I'm talking about is where he slowly reaches for his lightsaber and then ignites it. He doesn't do this instantly, he has time to think about what he's doing and what he's planning to do; that fulfills all the criteria for pre-meditation in my book.

    I don't think he went into the hut to kill Ben, I agree Jedi keep their LS on their person as a matter of protocol. But he contemplated killing Ben, it was not an impulse, he had time to think about it while he was preparing to do it.
     
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  8. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Unfortunately, this is where the two of us part ways. The opportunity to convey a better insight on Kylo's descent to the Dark Side was in the film. Not in a novel, not in a game, not in a comic....the film. I don't know about you, but I'm not inclined to watch a film and practically feel the cheap and uncreative shortcuts the writer has placed in the narrative to hastily accomplish some un-earned emotional drama, only to have to pay money for a spin-off book or comic months (or possibly years) down the line that properly develop and explains Kylo's motives. I ranted extensively on why I find this practice absolutely disgusting and lazy on the part of LFL, the idea that now the supplementary materials of the canon exist to try and remedy the lack of creativity or competence by the directors of the actual films. I'm not going to pay money for crucial character details that I should've been provided in the film whose drama and weight was predicated on those details.

    I didn't have to read a novel to understand Luke's anguish over his paternal revelation in ESB, or to properly sympathize with Anakin's crippling anxiety in ROTS...the details to make those struggles work were in the films, because Lucas wasn't depending on outside material to fill in the blanks for him.

    If I have to suddenly adopt this lower standard just to make the shortcomings of the new films work, then maybe it's time to acknowledge that these films aren't fully-complete or well-made products to begin with.

    Okay, so your conjecture is that I'm speculating the wide chasm in context between the mistake Luke made in the OT and the one he's making here. I'm not going to address the whole "Dark Side" thing, because we've done that entire song and dance before...and we both know that you don't have any more hard evidence for Luke falling to it 30 years later in this film than I do for rejecting it...by your own admission. And anyway, that's not what I was arguing when I stated that the context for Luke making this mistake again was different.

    Factually speaking, the context in which Luke commits this mistake again is not the same as in the OT. He's not a young and impulsive Jedi acolyte, he's a Jedi Master with multiple students---it would stand to reason that he's at least a little wiser and more rational than he was younger, if he's had this many students. He's not in a hazardous situation like he was in ROTJ, the last time he came close to turning to the Dark Side and a scenario where his friends were on the brink of death literally outside the window he was looking at...he was standing over his sleeping nephew, riddled with fear over atrocities that Kylo wouldn't commit until years into the future.

    The context for the mistake is not the same. That is irrefutable---Luke is neither the age, the experience, or the hazardous situation he was the last time he made a mistake like this.

    You can argue whether or not that different context made sense to you or not---I've personally made it clear how it doesn't work for me, and how the drastic departure in the context between films makes the entire plot point flimsy and laughably-bad in my eyes. That's all I've ever been arguing.


    Kylo Ren is not an enigmatic figure like Snoke or Plagueis. Any building to his character is not excessive world-building or detail dumping. His conflict with Luke, Rey, and the Light Side itself is the emotional crutch and narrative undercurrent of these films---we are meant to absorb details about him and his role in these movies with the same investment as we did with Luke and Anakin in the prior films.

    We don't have to empathize with him. We merely need to understand why he turned to the Dark Side; even if we don't sympathize with why he turned evil, the writing has to be strong enough to support his descent at all, and provide a suitable foundation for the kind of rage and conflict the writers desperately want us to feel pulsating within his character.

    And I'm sorry, when the only thing Rian Johnson could afford to justify Kylo's fall is a vague, poorly-conveyed flashback showcasing him as a full-grown adult whose only motive for turning evil is "Mommy and Daddy didn't pay enough attention to me" and "Uncle Luke tried to kill me, so I'm gonna kill EVERYONE", I'm not going to be invested or compelled in his antagonist status within these films....because that is such a weaksauce motivation and foundation for his character. Going from the whirlwind of trauma and bad choices that forged Anakin in to Vader, this is probably the worst justification for turning to the Dark Side yet, and it is all down to the writers preferring to downplay Kylo's origins and craft the most underwhelming backstory for him....and funneling all the run-time and resources that could've gone into flashbacks providing all of that in favor of disposable tripe like the entire Canto Bight sequence.

    That's not me asking for more detail to better empathize with Kylo---that's me wanting the bare minimum of a substantial reason to find him a compelling protagonist, and be better convinced by his bouts of his rage and emotional turmoil.

    But by going with such an underwhelming, flimsy, and laughably-implemented origin story, the writers have actually made his entire character and motives less plausible and compelling.
     
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  9. Sparafucile

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    Awesome post. I agree whole heartedly.

    I think what some fail to realize, is that we went to TLJ to love the movie. It is the lack of exposition that pulled us out of the experience. We wanted to love it, but we couldn't because we were stuck trying to figure out how A reaches D, then how D leaps to M, then what comes between M and W ect... yes, we can figure out B and C or at least construct it to some extent, but not in an instant while watching the movie. After the fact, the movie loses something. But it's worse than that, some of the lack of exposition are linked to other parts of the movie that suffer the same failure (imo).

    So I don't have enough to believe Luke is what he is in TLJ, but that part is integral to believing Kylo is who he is, so lacking the belief in Luke's characterization then snowballs into the incredulity of why Kylo made his decisions. Without exposition of Kylo/Snoke and how Snoke influenced Ben from a young age, I can't believe in both Luke and Ben. Add another layer, not seeing what Luke sees his nephew doing years down the road, or the context days or hours before the fateful walk into his nephews room in the middle of the night, and I can't believe Luke doing what he does in the movie (igniting his lightsaber).

    My point is that not only are vital (at least for me) parts are missing, they are missing on multiple fronts. Combined, that whole scenario turns into a feces show, because it's such a mess. Personally, I think the movie would have been better served to have one story (instead of 3 points of view) and give the audience more exposition on how things got to where they were. It would have served essentially the same purpose as we got, but would have made things much more coherent. It wouldn't have added any time, but instead of seeing 3 takes on the same situation, we would have gotten additions to the story bit by bit instead of slight alterations to the same story.
     
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  10. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Absolutely.
    I'm not sure why you're pushing this point but I agree the context is different.

    Like I said in my post I think you have to lose all the nuance and reduce the situation down to the bare essence of Luke's motivation to equate it with that previous situation.
    And when we do we basically get Luke acting rashly out of fear for loved ones – his greatest weakness.

    Incidentally we've got nothing to rely on but assumption and speculation about the character in order to contend that his greatest weakness couldn't be exploited in a situation like the one in TLJ.
    It's tricky because empathy and understanding go together.
    We can't empathize with a character without understanding them and we can't understand their behavior without the ability to put ourselves in their shoes.
    Of course we don't have to sympathize with a character, like them, or support their decisions to empathize with them.

    And wasn't Ben's turn pretty straight forward in the film?
    The movies detail that:
    1. Snoke was grooming Ben.
    2. Ben's parents sent him away to the uncle and master that he awoke to find standing over him with a lit sabre.
    Between these two events and the knowledge the dark side is easier/more seductive surely there's enough information to follow what's going on unless there's some other roadblocks in the way?

    We may get even more info but if you were exposed to conflicting world-views and then caught a proponent of one of those views - a trusted authority figure contemplating killing you - wouldn't you be likely to swing another way?
     
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  11. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    unless we all believe that about each other.. then what are we doing here? wanting to love the movies is the high ground and every single one of us should be up there.
    I can only talk about this from my perspective, but what you said there made me think about where my head was going into the theater for the first time last December. the following section that i quoted from you.. i think i can at least explain why i felt differently. not right.. because there is no right, just differently.
    Going into the ST, whilst i wanted to know what had happened to Han/Leia/Chewie/R2 etc and to see them in action again, and of course see lots of new characters.. Luke was my focal point. I wanted to know what kind of a Jedi he became, and i wanted to get to know his kids.. as i completely assumed he would have children.

    from the moment Leia asked Han to bring their son home.. Ben became the story of the whole ST for me. from that split second Kylo was no longer the villain.. he was Ben Solo and he was in trouble.. he needed saving. i'm not ignorant of the bad things he had done.. but my head went with Leia.. a mother pleading to have her son back. forgiveness.. redemption.. these things mean absolutely squat to me, it simply became a tragedy of a mother and father who lost their son.. and the pain that their son was in.

    then there was the bridge scene.. oh boy. So i was sat there that night and Han sees his son walk by. I've obviously read the rumors about the bad guy being Han's son and also that he possibly kills Han in the movie. Before Han walks towards Kylo, i'm sitting there saying to myself "go to him Han.. you have to". i know what that means.. but i need him to try and save his son.
    When Ben asked his father to help him, and he offered the light saber.. i was saying to myself "don't do it Ben, don't do it.. you can't come back from that". and then he did it.
    for a split second i thought it was all over for Ben, and then Han did this..
    [​IMG]
    i then i was right back in the same place again.

    what i'm trying to explain (probably badly) is that Ben became everything to me in the Saga. It's something that crept up on me during TFA while i was eagerly waiting for my Hero Luke Skywalker to appear on screen - to be everything i hoped he would be after 30 years.

    Going into TLJ i already knew that Luke had failed in some way, and i knew that Snoke had been a party to Ben's turn to the dark side. I also knew that Ben had done unspeakable things. I still had a fleeting hope that Rey would be Luke's daughter (a bonkers part of me thinks JJ could still go that way if he really wants) but it's no longer as important as Ben finding his way out of the hole he's in.

    because of what i said above (you can call it nonsensical drivel if you like.. most things i say fall under that :D) the gaps in the story that you mention here.. simply aren't important to me. Before we see Luke light his Saber, i already know that for my hero to walk away from everything like he did.. that he must have done something bad, or come very close to it. It was bad, and it was very nearly something unspeakable.

    at this point i'll bring up the scene from ROTS with Anakin and the younglins.. and Anakin choking Padme.

    Do i need to see what Luke sees in Ben's head during the flashback? do i need that to understand why he considered (even if it was for a split second) killing his nephew? do i need to see it from Ben's perspective to understand what falling to the dark side had done to him?

    in my mind.. what Luke saw was atrocious - something worse than what Anakin did at the temple. I don't need to see it. I understand why you do.. honestly i do.

    Luke earned my trust and respect with his actions 30 years ago. i'm not happy with him for lighting his saber over Ben, and i'm not happy with him walking away from everything. I accept it.. even our heroes can fall and disappoint us.. but i'm not happy with him, and i want him to pull himself together and be the hero i know him to be.. which is what happened in the end (for me).


    If you're still with me lol, then hopefully you'll understand (even if it's just a little) that i don't doubt the gaps you mentioned. I see them, and i understand why you're upset. right now.. those details aren't important to me, but who knows going into IX.. perhaps they will, and it's possible that Ben himself will re-count the horrors of what happened at Luke's academy in another flashback?

    i'm clinging to Ben returning to the light. some want Kylo to become the baddest villain ever.. some want him dead or to answer for the things he's done. I'm not sure how i will view this trilogy (the whole saga in fact) if Ben stays in the dark and doesn't find some kind of happy ending.. i've always wanted to be challenged by new SW content, but a bad outcome for Ben scares the life out of me.

    we're all in too deep! lol

    if my worst nightmare happens.. i'll be relying on you folks to remind me of how you are feeling right now ;)

    :)
     
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  12. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    @Moral Hazard is my favorite person to debate with on this forum (he's probably a lot of people's favorites because you can actually have a civilized debate and never agree on anything the whole time - as we often don't). But @Darth_Nobunaga, THIS was a great post. My only regret is that I can only rate it great one time. Good debate overall. Carry on.
     
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  13. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    I push that point because that was the argument I was making in the original post that you were quoting me from. I stated my disdain for Luke making the same mistake in a context that I didn't feel justified repeating it, and then you accused me of doing the same kind of speculation I try to avoid (which I wasn't, by the way).
    It came off as you implying that I was speculating on the context in TLJ. I don't believe I was.

    And this is something I refuse to do with Star Wars, or any other media. Literally ignoring components in the current story to make something work.

    What you're asking me is to ignore the situation Luke is in within TLJ, the context of the scene, the chronological setting, the factors like his age and experience, the wide chasm in risk and danger between the mistake he's repeating here and the first time he made it, etc. You're asking me to ignore assets that TLJ itself has as a story in order to make this one emotional moment work. Sorry, but no.

    I shouldn't have "lose" any nuance of the story in order to properly buy its narrative legitimacy---I shouldn't have to do less thinking to make the writing more coherent and reasonable. Literally going "Sure, the story works, as long as you ignore and bar this, this, and this" is something I refuse to do. I'm not going to read a Superman comic, and go: "Sure, as long as you ignore the fact that Superman is borderline indestructible, has fought Doomsday and Darkseid hand-to-hand, and has the strength to literally bench-press an ocean-liner, it makes sense that he would die by tripping into open traffic and being run over by a car. Makes total sense, if you ignore the rest."

    That is me having to ignore irrefutable aspects of the plot in order to make one scene work. And you'll never find me doing that.

    No, you don't. Just the assumption and speculation that he hasn't grown substantially since ROTJ if he's willing to make the exact same mistake all over again in less hazardous circumstances and a far less justifiable context. You would literally have to just assume that Luke had mentally advanced as a Jedi Master in every other way---training students, starting an academy, gaining wisdom---except the one mistake you'd think he'd work on never making again.

    That requires speculation and projection that the character hasn't grown at all between films. But considering how little information we've received about what HAPPENED between films, which is impressive given how much of those events seem to dictate the conflict and relevance of the ST, all we can do is speculate.

    Which, I'm not going to defend, because I never had to speculate a thing in order to properly invest or emotionally commit to the story of any previous Star Wars work.

    Empathizing literally means to understand and share the emotions of someone else. My point in my post is that you don't always have to empathize with villains for them to be fleshed-out or well-written. You could have all the flashback scenes I mentioned and still not make Kylo Ren sympathetic---just better fleshed-out.

    Darth Maul came back in the Clone Wars TV Show, and he wasn't magically made more sympathetic or tragic in order to cement his role as a villain (if anything, they made his brother Savage more sympathetic). Maul's motives and ravenous need for vengeance were made exhaustively clear throughout the series, and is made a consistent attribute of his character. We see for ourselves the maddening desire that fuels him to pursue Kenobi, and weave his web of criminal syndicates and radical Mandalorians to complete that revenge.

    He isn't made more sympathetic through this. He beheads helpless hostages, tortures and abuses people, backstabs allies, kills major characters like Duchess Satine---without ever once being emotionally justified or rationalized in some kind of sympathetic light.

    All the writing provides us is understanding why Maul is doing all those things, because that's all we needed. And the writing is substantial enough to make that a suitable bedrock for all of his actions, without it ever being excessive or hammy.

    Kylo's origins do not accomplish the same purpose even remotely, which is far worse given how badly Rian Johnson wants us to psychologically sympathize with him, beyond your typical Star Wars villain. I will elaborate on why I feel this way below:

    Before I give my two thousand cents on the matter, I think it's appropriate to reference another user whose input captures the problem at its most basic foundation:
    @Sparafucile put it as follows: "I don't have enough to believe Luke is what he is in TLJ, but that part is integral to believing Kylo is who he is."

    This is essentially my problem with Kylo, especially in regards to everything you've stated about "Kylo's turn being pretty straightforward." That's just the problem: I know why he turned evil, because the film told me...I just don't believe it.

    We're told that Snoke groomed Ben and emotionally manipulated him turning evil, but their interactions give me nothing to support that. In fact, if anything, the way Snoke backhands Kylo consistently throughout TLJ only makes that element of Kylo's origins more flimsy. Palpatine taking Vader under his wing was something that was hinted at in ROTJ, what with Palpatine complimenting him ("You've done well, Lord Vader"), and even chiding him in a way that still made it look like we were supposed to believe in the legitimacy of their Master and Apprentice relationship ("Patience, my friend."). Then, in the PT, when their dynamic becomes integral to the emotional narrative of Anakin the same way Snoke's is supposedly for Kylo's origins, Palpatine is shown to be constantly grooming and weeding toxic bouts of false empathy to Anakin. We aren't told this...we're SHOWN this. Palpatine becomes a refuge for all of Anakin's dilemmas, from his frustrations with Obi-Wan and the Jedi Council, to even confiding personal struggles like his mother and the Sand People. So when Anakin willingly becomes a subservient pawn for Palpatine in ROTS, it doesn't come out of nowhere or feel like a farce, because enough interactions have been provided between the two during Anakin's emotional turmoil, and his willingness to share it with Palpatine exclusively up till that point...something staged as early as AOTC, when the two rejoice Anakin finally getting an assignment "worthy of his skills."
    Now, I don't know about you, but just through Kylo and Snoke's interactions in both TFA and TLJ, I absolutely do not believe that Kylo Ren would betray everyone to become the puppet of this enigmatic Raisin-looking Dark Sider. I don't believe that he would've turned his back on his family, had been emotionally stimulated to become a mass murderer on a galactic scale, or pledge unwavering loyalty to Snoke. They've told us that this is the case in the most lazy of passing mentions, but have done nothing to earn my belief in the situation. This would be fine if we were talking about off-screen info for world-building---like the death of Sifo-Dyas, the building of the Clone Army, the idea of Midichlorians---but this is a character-related element. Kylo's relationship with Snoke is one of the primrary reasons we're meant to sympathize with him, feel his lack of control or agency while being a Dark Side pawn. We only have the writers' passing mention of Snoke's grooming to justify all of this. Why the hell should I be invested in any of this when I've been provided so little? Am I just supposed to rely on head-canon here, too?

    And then, there's your other point about Luke's attempted murder driving Kylo to the Dark Side. Again, despite being actually shown (unlike the grooming of Snoke), it suffers from the same problem: it's not substantial enough to provide a foundation for everything he does. Kylo Ren isn't an infant, a scared little child, or some hapless toddler in the flashback in TLJ---he's 23. And I'm sorry, but given his circumstances and everything we're told about him up till that point, nothing justifies the kind of response Kylo had to Luke trying to kill him. I can understand swearing revenge and trying to kill Luke, but slaughtering the entire academy of students? Committing to the Dark Side permanently? Turning against his parents to the point where he's willing to kill him? It's such a leap to extremes that I can't come close to buying it. You can't expect me to empathize or even remotely buy into Kylo's motives when they don't have a strong enough foundation. This is literally the most weaksauce motivation to become a Dark Sider I've ever seen. And I know some people like to defend his narrative handling by claiming that he's mentally unstable or affected by trauma, thus justifying such an extreme reaction to Luke killing him---but we aren't given any definitive proof that he's subject to any such ailment. The most we get to justify his descent is Luke stating that "he saw Darkness in him throughout his training", but we have no idea what that even entails. Was he too aggressive? Was he too attached? Did he harm or abuse other students? Was he egotistical? Did he have an elitist grasp of the Force where he thought he knew better than Luke? Was he arrogant or sadistic? We don't know....all we have is "Darkness." That's not compelling or satisfactory in the slightest. And no, Vader and Palpatine's villainous roles and vague motives in the past films do not justify the lack of detail when it comes to Kylo: we are told about his true identity in the first movie in this trilogy, and he is inserted as a major component to the emotional narrative of the films IMMEDIATELY. We're supposed to be invested in the conflict and dark side descent of this character---but just like his relationship with Snoke, there's nothing outside of vague, hand-wave explanations to justify it. And you can't ask me to be emotionally invested in a character whose descent is laughable and has the narrative depth of a shallow puddle. It's boring, undercooked, poorly-conveyed, and not even remotely warranting the mountains of saccharine melodrama pumped into the scenes involving him, whether he shares them with Snoke, Rey, or Luke. The story wants me to be awed and rattled by Kylo's character---but that's not going to happen when the writers have done such a sloppy job establishing him as a character and antagonist. It's the #1 reason I hate him so much, and even though I'll never come close to liking the character, I could at least give him a free pass if his descent to the Dark Side had been given proper detail instead of a hand-wave explanation and a eye-roll-inducing flashback of the most intelligence-insulting kind.

    Simply put, the writers have raced so exhaustively to the dramatic scenes and narrative goalposts they've wanted for characters like Kylo Ren, but haven't earned my investment to make me care once they've gotten there. They've done such a poor job setting the stage for Kylo's drama that I could never be in danger of being even remotely invested in him.
     
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  14. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    This really is a major point.

    I could tolerate a Luke who had decided to quit the Force Arena altogether and maybe even more. But not without storytelling, and not without storytelling that still honors story points that came before it.

    He was developed into a particular archetype over the course of 3 movies and many years of supplemental material. You can't just subvert all that in one movie and expect the audience (that is aware of this development) to suspend their already suspended disbelief. That gap is not surmountable. You have to EARN the audience's investment in your vision through development, and it just isn't there. Hell, you could make the argument that there isn't enough bandwidth to do it, and I'd agree - but that would serve as motivation:

    1. Tell a different story
    2. Invest in the back story. Hell you did a flash back, do a whole movie. You'd have the entire bandwidth to yourself, no Rey, no Finn, you wouldn't necessarily even need to bring in Han or Leia.

    That notwithstanding, I think the part the just needles me to death is my belief that Luke takes on this new persona solely for the benefit of empathizing with Kylo Ren; an act that I am still not convinced was necessary or useful in advancing this trilogy. I don't know why Rian was so adamant about dying on this particular hill but I guess felt the only way you could empathize with Kylo was if he was wronged by someone. The problem is: I don't empathize with him based on that flashback, I fixate on a Luke who suddenly now is capable of contemplating murder, an act that seems irrefutably outside of his character profile and the nature of a Master Jedi.

    The movie requires FAR too much generosity from the audience in accepting this turn of events based on what is provided on screen. It simply does not work.
     
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  15. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    This needs to be carved in stone tablets and left on the site of Skywalker ranch.
     
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  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    This wasn't subverted in TLJ. This is started in TFA...
    Luke from 30 years ago doesn't walk away from everything. Why does he walk away? He walks away because of his failure with Ben Solo. We go into TLJ knowing Luke walked away from everything. In TLJ, that idea is expanded further.
    My personal view is Luke contemplating murdering his own father before stopping. The nature of a Master Jedi? Wasn't Mace Windu set to murder Palpatine? Master Jedi Luke Skywalker was barely trained compared to the knights during the Republic.
    I'd argue quite the opposite. There's not a great deal charity in this particular thread when it comes to comparing this film to some of the previous chapters of the story.
     
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  17. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    It was mentioned he left in TFA, not that he nearly killed his nephew in cold blooded murder while he was asleep. Big difference there. I think there were thousands of avenues RJ could have went, he chose to make Luke a creep.

    I think any fan can accept failure in Luke, failure in properly training Ben or failure in knowing how (his training was abbreviated after all). The issue with most fans is not in whether Luke can fail, it's in how RJ chose to make him fail. It was creepy and did not seem Luke like at all. Expanding on what happened was fine and expected, if not necessary. Doing it how he did is the issue (obviously with those of us who have an issue with it).

    Once Luke found out it was his father from Yoda, later when talking to Obi-Wan, the idea of killing his father was unfathomable. "I can't do it, I can't kill my own father..." Only when pushed to the brink did Luke fight back that way. Only when things were utterly hopeless. Friends dying in space, on the surface moon, and provoked by Vader when he threatens to turn his sister. The comparison is used often, but it's comparing oranges to steak, there's nothing in common. There could have been, maybe, if RJ had bothered to write some backstory to what happened prior to Luke walking into his nephews room in the dead of night and reading his mind, but there wasn't. There could have been had RJ given the audience a glimpse of what Luke saw in Ben's dreams, but he didn't. What was there, wasn't enough for us fans who don't like it and can't suspend our disbelief with the void RJ left us in the story telling.

    As for Windu, he knew Palpatine would not come willingly, there's a difference there. He had also harmed countless already, and was going to do more, based on past experience and events. Big difference between the two. I can go on and on into the differences between Sideous and young Ben Solo (for he was not yet Kylo at this point), but they're so obvious one would almost have to be willfully ignorant to not see them. I can't help but see people who compare Palpatine or Vader to young Ben as doing some trolling, possibly not intentionally, but subconsciously, because the differences are vast. One is a Sith Lord with a resume of death and destruction, the other has the potential to be. I would think any Jedi has the potential to be, considering their power.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 4, 2018 ---
    Much of how you felt during TFA I shared. I kind of knew Kylo was going to kill Han (mostly because I knew Harrison Ford wanted out) but I hoped he didn't, or something happened and Han died by a trigger happy ST (or something) and saved Kylo of that. I was pretty open to the story to unfold however it needed to.

    However, I never got as invested in Kylo as you did. I was more invested in the OT 3 or 4 then I ever was in the new additions. That's not to say they didn't have potential, I enjoyed all 3 good guys in partsin parts in TFA, I was overwhelmingly more positive with all 3 at the end of TFA. I never got the love for Kylo. I thought he was pretty awesome in his first scenes on the planet, then lost respect for him when he took a tantrum on the computer console, and it went down from there. But at the end of TFA, I still had hope he could make a worthy villain.

    I don't need to see what Luke saw reading Ben's future/dreams, mostly because at that time it hasn't happened yet, and always in motion is the future. I honestly don't think adding this would have changed my mind much on Luke's actions in TLJ. Mostly, I need to see what got Luke to thinking Ben was this far gone that he felt he needed to go read his mind and dreams. I need to understand what triggered him reacting by drawing and igniting his lightsaber.

    At this point I hope JJ does do something to further explain events leading up to the flashback, but I have little to no hope of that happening, mostly by the constant denial that it was in any way any kind of an issue. RJ's on the record saying he would change nothing in the TLJ and he seems to have full support of KK. So I expect the story to ignore everything of the past and just move forward with what's there. Any explanation will come in books, comics or cartoons later on after the trilogy is over.
     
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  18. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Me too.
    Maybe you misinterpreted my post but no-one is asking you to ignore components.
    I was acknowledging you'd have to ignore a lot of details to claim the scenes are the same - not advocating that you do so!
    1. There are some similarities in the two scenes.
    2. There are many differences.
    3. They are not the same.
    I hope that clears that up as I thought that was something we agreed on! :eek:
    That could be true - all of it.
    For all we know Luke's never been tested in that way since RoTJ.
    Yeah sorry, I got that point and thought it a fair critique but forgot to acknowledge it! :oops:
    I think I understand where you're coming from about detailing character motivations and I can see why some people fail to sympathise with Kylo - or don't want to.

    As to your Maul example, I actually thought he was made more sympathetic and tragic in TCW and it changed him from villain to anti-villain status in my mind.

    I can admit to pitying him a little and seeing a few glimpses of “humanity”in him.
    I felt for him being used like a tool and betrayed by those he trusted.
    I felt bad watching him double-down on his anger as if he didn't know any better (it reminded me of a young nephew of mine).
    I felt like his self-loathing and revenge kept him trapped in a tragic cycle while escape from it was beyond his limited skill-set. :(

    Of course none of this excuses his actions and it doesn't have too – sympathy and disgust don't need to be mutually exclusive.
    But empathizing with “the other” is a big theme in SW – it's a strength for some (Luke) and an enabler for self-destruction in others (Padme).
    Granted these are big barriers going into the last chapter and I appreciate you guys taking to time to break down and explain where the disconnect lies between you and the ST story choices.
    Fair enough, and easy tiger – this impassioned writing is in danger of seducing me to the darkside making me question my position! I prefer to think I'm open minded with few expectations rather than easy to please or just plain gullible! :eek:

    But seriously that post has some of the best put criticisms I've heard about the TLJ – the higher hanging fruit IMO. I've been making a habit of pointing out the hypocrisy's and obvious flaws I see in posters' reasoning and while I'm sure there's contrary opinions here you've made enough sense to shut me up.

    For your guys sake I hope there's something more going on here and detail is provided in Episode IX in a way that ignites the spark that lights your fire yadayada you get the point. :rolleyes:

    Edit: some of post missing but it's probably better that way!
     
    #4578 Moral Hazard, Aug 4, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
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  19. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    What if it wasn't Kylo who started the fight? What if it was one of the other students? A person who couldn't believe that Luke was able to threaten the life of his adopted son? There's a reason why we do not see the events that ensued during the night from the flashbacks and only find out the consequences. It is up to us to decide who is to blame and who is the victim. Could be Kylo, could be Luke, could one of the unnamed students. Just like in Rashomon.
     
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  20. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Disagree, it was subverted specifically in TLJ. He is absent in most of TFA physically and even conversationally. Han's characterization of events could just as easily be supplanted in the next episode as Luke being told that Vader killed his father in ANH was supplanted in ESB. Nothing in TFA proscribes what Rian chose to write (this goes for all the characters, not just Luke).

    Let us remember what Rian himself said:

    “But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom."

    TFA informs us Luke was gone. Rian decided why he was gone in TLJ. Therein lies the subversion. The problem isn't that he's gone it's WHY he's gone. Rian isn't expanding on the idea, let's look at your Han quote again:

    "One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything."

    Is that the story that Rian told? That an apprentice merely turned against Luke and destroyed it all? Or was it that one apprentice was being seduced by the Snoke, and Luke became the catalyst for his departure by contemplating his murder? Those aren't really the same narratives are they? Jedi had lost apprentices before, any Star Wars fan could accept as much because there is precedence for it. There is no precedence for what Luke did in the hut, and ran counter to what we knew about him and Master Jedi in general. But that's what Rian wanted to see, that's what felt right to him.

    For obvious reasons I'm not going to debate your personal view; as you can imagine mine is different. In my personal view Luke isn't contemplating murder at all when fighting Vader, (in part because he's already actively engaged in combat with Vader). In your personal opinion does Vader "murder" Palpatine?

    And again I'll ask anyone to show me an example where Obi Wan or Yoda ever contemplated murdering someone for any reason (let alone things they had not yet done, let alone a student). Yoda sensed issues with Anakin, at no point does he contemplate murdering him for it. If you do a search you'll see I've addressed the Mace issue a number of times previous to today. Mace was in combat with a Sith who had not only just killed 3 Jedi, and had control of the Judicial apparatus that would judge him if he went to trial, he had also orchestrated wars (plural). Mace was justified in killing Palpatine for any one of those actions, let alone all of them combined. And again, these were things that Palpatine had done, not things a vision suggested he might do.

    I don't think this film honored much of the metadata and trajectory supplied by previous chapters of the story. As such, I'm not sure why this film should receive much charity from the fans who were denied the continuity, magic, and experience they were expecting, in favor of a director creating a stand alone instead of an installment in an anthology.
     
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