THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Wait, people are still trying to compare the Rey-Kylo thing to Luke-Vader??

Anakin was Luke's FATHER. A father he clearly thought about a lot- as established as early as ANH. A father he no doubt heard stories about (the good stuff) from his Aunt and Uncle, and later between ANH and ESB.

It makes complete sense that he would have an emotional connection to at least the idea of his father.


Kylo is NOTHING to Rey- or should be. He's the guy who kidnapped her, entered her mind, killed his own father (her friend), and killed many others.

The idea that people are actually pulling for Reylo is disgusting enough. But to try and make the two situations the same? That is being willfully ignorant.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 21, 2018 ---

*** Also, not sure which thread is more active these days. But-

The B plot might even be worse on repeat viewings. I’m curious if any of these issues were addressed in the novel, comic, etc-


Why doesn’t the FO just light speed ahead of the Resistance and accomplish what they have been trying to do for a long time- wipe out the Resistance? Why is Hux so patient when he could get it over with and please his boss?


Why doesn’t the Resistance just split up? Go in different directions so only 1 ship can really be tracked?


Why not jump to friendly territory, and have “friends” waiting to help?


If Poe can get a message to Maz, why can’t he get a message to friends of the resistance?


If you accept that he can’t because of some reasons, Why can’t Maz pass the word on for help once she is done with her problem?


How does Poe not know Holdo, if the Resistance is small? (Why didn’t they just make her a Republic holdover? - that would have explained the conflict between the two as well. “You didn’t believe us, now you want to take over?”- at least that would have made sense)


Why didn’t Holdo just tell everyone her plan? The rebels were never secretive with each other before.


Why is Holdo dressed for prom? Where was she in TFA? She outranks Poe, right? But he doesn't know her?


Where is the rest of the resistance, like JJ’s friend?


Why does Poe send Finn and Rose on such an important mission? Why not go himself or send more experienced people? He obviously had other friends, and he wasn’t helping there.


If Finn and Rose can get away, why doesn’t everyone pack into small ships and split up?


Why do Finn and Rose just give up on finding the code breaker? Once the stutter guy gets them out, why just shrug and say “this guy says he can do it, he seems nice”?


When did the stutter guy make a deal with the FO?


Why didn’t everyone climb into small ships, and Holdo could “light speed” into the main ship at the beginning? Then, they could all jump away without being tracked?


If jumping into light speed through a ship can destroy it, why didn’t the rebels do it to the deathstar? Or the deathstar 2.0 in TFA? Fewer people would have died.


What is to stop this from being the answer to every conflict now? If 9 contains a big space battle, it could be over quick if someone remembers Holdo's trick, right?


Why did the FO not destroy Holdo’s ship once she was in range?


Why wasn’t Kylo helping? When he wasn’t skyping with Rey, what was he doing? Its odd he was so involved in tracking the Resistance up to that point. I suppose you could say he figured it was a matter of time, but why would impatient Kylo not force Hux to jump ahead of them and get it over with?


Kylo literally knows Rey is coming, since he is prepared to greet her. Why did he let the Falcon get away?


I assume Chewie and R2 noticed the situation that Resistance was in when they “dropped Rey off (lol)”, why didn’t they go call for help?


Why did an FO ship with all that sophisticated tracking, etc- not notice the Falcon and/or track it when it left?


I think I am actually forgetting some.



I’m honestly curious if any of these were addressed because that is a lot for HALF a movie. Every movie has stuff, but this is a lot- and it is HALF the movie.

 

Well the actress doesn’t want to be Rey any longer so as long as she goes Dark I’m ok with Reylo. In the end we see they have kids but one of the kids has Ghost Luke and Yoda watching over him as a baby. Trilogy end Dark.
Next trilogy picks up with this defendant fighting his Siblings as the Galaxies only light sider. This child tries to bring light back to the Galaxy by teaching ancient Jedi.

The movie is called “The Only Hope”.

 

This. This this this.

I've been saying for months there will be no Rian Johnson trilogy. I consider Iger's statement to be good supporting evidence. I'm surprised it isn't getting more discussion in here.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 22, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2018 ---

Are you kidding me? Did you read the article???!?

 

I kid you not. I read it and I stand by what I said in my post. His meaning is very clear to me. This gentleman took great care in going deeper and evaluating the problem of people having such visceral reactions to TLJ.

 

Well, here are some examples of him doing that which you say he didn't do:

"it has suddenly become dominated by unfettered arguments, toxic harshness, boycotts, petitions for films to be struck from the canon, petitions to outright remake films, petitions for firings and even full-on racist and sexist harassment campaigns"

"they’ll desperately resort to conspiracy theories, as well as weaponizing the bold-faced racism and sexism that so nakedly rests under their skin."

"“I’m not a troglodyte” defenders toss off opinions that exemplify the exact kinds of subconscious racism and stealth sexism that those same troglodytes proclaim loudly."

"it is one of the most important lessons of tackling toxic masculinity and egocentric thinking…"

"Wouldn’t you know, there are a lot of men who don’t want to learn this lesson. They especially don’t want to feel like women leaders are withholding something from them."

"there are video game fans who don’t like anything “political” in their games, but they’ll happily spend 40 hours getting their rocks off to a jingoistic, republican wet dream, but then they’ll scream “politics!” if a game wants them to play a female character"

"For all the ways that some of the most toxic fans criticized the “S.J.W.” qualities of The Force Awakens because of the mere presence of minority characters within it, they were really criticizing its texture."

and my personal favorite:

"it's no accident that a generation of white men, who always saw themselves as the ones being stepped on, worship their properties as the things that give them strength and lash out at those who try to make it more inclusive."

 

If she is Luke's daughter and her and Kylo fall in love you realize they would be cousins right. I am totally ok with them destroying the entire universe but humping cousins is to much.

 

Where did I lose you?

 

Just Empire Strikes Back

 

You should have turned left Albuquerque.

 

I think it works if they both go dark... except in explaining it to the kiddies. If they're both dark though, it could add to the vileness of the union. It speaks about their character much in the same way for the Lannister twins in GoT. I just don't think SW wants to go there.

 

Read carefully what I said. I did not say this author did not acknowledge racism, sexism and other kind of bigotry among a VERY SMALL group of fans who criticise TFA and TLJ. I said that he DID NOT call fans who did not like TLJ racist, sexist etc...


This is exactly what the author says about those very few bigots:


“They represent the vestigial tail of white male fragility that seems to have a last-gasp stranglehold on this country, and they are determined to take us down with them. I don’t give one single blast what they think.”


He is referring here with the word “vestigial” to a VERY SMALL group of white males who are blatantly racist and bigots. Afterwards he says very clearly that not liking a movie is completely acceptable, and that where the problem lies is in people not understanding each other anymore because some “troglodytes”are high jacking the conversation and muddling the legitimacy of TLJ and TFA criticism:


“What I do very much give a blast about, however, is the larger conversation where there are people who, you know, just didn’t like some of the recent Star Wars movies. And that’s totally cool. All I really want to do in this essay is get at the heart of why. This would normally be less of a problem, but since we all find ourselves having to engage with the aforementioned toxic bunch, it becomes really hard to navigate discussion with each other, probably because it feels like so much is at stake (this is precisely why larger conversations need to be moderated; the troglodytes suck up the space for rationality and common ground).”


He is also cautioning some fans who do not want to be lumped with the bigots or “troglodytes” not to use their same arguments and be more sensitive to whom you may be offending and more careful when expressing criticism:


“No one is ever happy about getting lumped in with troglodytes, so I understand why people get defensive. But when people reply to criticism with a kind of “not all Star Wars fans!” mantra, they often miss the point of the criticism being made. Especially because I’ve seen a fair amount of these same “I’m not a troglodyte” defenders toss off opinions that exemplify the exact kinds of subconscious racism and stealth sexism that those same troglodytes proclaim loudly. I know no one likes to believe they’re guilty of any kind of “ist” behavior, but sometimes there’s a larger reason that we get lumped in with folks who are spitting hate. So please be careful, and open your heart and open your mind to a larger conversation.”


I take issue also with what you say about the paragraph below. Within the context of the article I understand it in a completely different way from the way you do.


“Moreover, it is one of the most important lessons of tackling toxic masculinity and egocentric thinking…which brings us to the whole point. That’s the exact reason people might not like it. Wouldn’t you know, there are a lot of men who don’t want to learn this lesson. They especially don’t want to feel like women leaders are withholding something from them.”


This author had already told us previously in the article it is a mistake being carried away by emotion when we watch films that are trying to challenge our expectations like TLJ, because we fail to see a film for what it is. I think he is right. For example, when I saw TLJ first and Holdo was introduced my first impulse was to think she was a VERY stuck up lady (as I like Poe very much and thought she was giving him too much of a hard time). Later I understood that Holdo was actually alright, and that she was just trying to exert authority over a lovable yet awfully cocky pilot. I understood this story wasn’t going to be about Poe just being cool and funny, but about putting him in his place by someone who just knew better. In many ways I was disappointed that this was the storyline for Poe, as I was looking forward to something fluffier, but I accepted it and went with it. As I read this gentleman’s article I understand I myself, a staunch feminist, had fallen in the comforting trap of accepting Poe’s “toxic masculinity”, this cocky, egocentric yet charming pilot, and had put him in a box. I now see that RJ just wanted this character not to be a cartoon hero but rather a grown up man. This is a good thing for the character of Poe.


The author of this article we are discussing is simply challenging our inbuilt and frequently unconscious prejudices, not trying to insult us. We all have -ist tendencies now and again without realising. No one is perfect.

 

LOL!! Cue the dueling banjos. It wouldn't be SW without some incestuous tones in the middle chapter. If she turns out to be Luke's daughter then I would guess that what transpired in TLJ would be presented as Kylo knew who she really was and was trying to get her to join him as another one of Vader's descendants to rule the galaxy. I think they want it to remain PG-13 so no humping cousins.

 

I said fall in n love with Finn....I got derailed.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 22, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2018 ---

I get the impression that Kylo is holding back a bit when in battle with Rey. Kylo protected her from Snoke. Kylo could have chosen any time to attack Snoke but he did so in protection of Rey. He gets mad at everything, except Rey. Leia and Rey are all the light that remains in Kylo.

I can never respect Rey if she falls in love with Kylo after watching him kill his own father in cold blood, unless...Rey goes dark side.

 

Uh, what you said was this:

Wolfpack: "He talks about how he wants to be civil, and then pretty much calls anyone who disliked TLJ the usual assortment of racist/sexist/toxic/privileged/etc."

Kylocity: "He actually didn’t do that." (followed by an attempt to move the goalposts)

You initial statement was to disagree with my thesis. It's perfectly valid to disagree, but you don't get to redefine the statement I made. I gave multiple examples of him painting those who didn't like TLJ was the same broad brush of racism/sexism/etc. I stand by my original thesis.

 

Again: this author NEVER called anyone who dislikes TLJ racist, sexist etc. That’s something you just came out with and tried to prove taking quotes out of context from this very long article, but the truth still stands: this author DID NOT say that. You are the only one moving goalposts here. Actually, you might as well change the whole pitch.

 

He didn't call everyone sexist or bigot for disliking the film but he said the young black fan is “indulgent” for criticizing Finn as a character.
He didn’t give the young black fan any caution at all. He just said “oh you just can’t take a joke."

He also points out those issues that people have with the film like the Holdo plot, Snoke death, are all just nitpicks and basically we aren’t watching the film “properly”

The young black fan didn’t want Finn to be a badass Jedi. He simply asked the the character should be written with some dignity instead of an over the top comedic relief like a lot of film do with black characters.

The author then went as far as to single this fan out, then tell the fan what tone deaf really means. Instead of accepting that it’s a valid point and still disagreeing with it, he goes as far as to tell the black fan that he is missing Finn’s profound and “incredible arc.”

You see why it’s upsetting? He is a white liberal claiming to be progressive who is actually “whitesplaining” to a black man about what tone deaf means.


Do you see why that’s hypocritical?

He also says that numbers on Rotten Tomatoes are useless then he creates his own number system by saying that 80% people love it and 20% don’t.

Then at the end of this overlong article that he wants people who dislike the film to “admit they wanted indulgence.” It can’t be that maybe, just MAYBE, a good portion of people just found the film hollow and somewhat messy. It has to be that “oh you cannot see how profound this film is, here let me show you why you are wrong.”

It is the other extreme of fandom. Whereas the other half of fandom are MRA, racist idiots who threaten actors, the other extreme are passive aggressive elitists who think people who dislike film just don’t get it.

It’s not that I don’t get it. I just thought it was kind of stupid. But you know what the difference is? I don’t judge others who love the film. I accept it and move on.

But people like Hulk are being blindly praised for their “progressive” writing that they can’t see his own racial blindspots.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 22, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2018 ---

FYI, if you look at one of the comments in the section of this reddit post. It turns out that young black fan wasn’t black, he was actually brown. The user name is BensenMum

He even posted links below to the email exchange between him and Hulk. It is pretty clear in the email that nothing indicates what specifically this fan’s race was at the time.

Basically, Hulk decided to assume what race and age he was to fit his own argument.

 

What you described is one of the things fans of Finn were afraid of. Finn helping the Resistance is not growth. That's growth for others who want to use you. He was already doing that for the FO. The FO said they were the good guys too. If that's the best explanantion he has then he is no better than the FO. As long as he benefits from your sweat and blood he doesn't give a damn about you or your life. Progress is what benefits my life. This guy just described a damn dog, and when I look at TLJ that's how I see Finn. He even has to be held back like a dog when he is thinking about helping Luke. He just got there but like a mindless fool is ready to throw his life away for another bunch who don't even have the decency to care about what he has gone through. The best they can do is get some mechanic underling tasering and criticizing him, because God forbid Finn makes decisions for his benefit.

 

He openly admits that he likes the film and that’s why he tries to defend the film choices. There is nothing wrong with that. He thinks that part of the reason why people don’t like TLJ is because of their self-indulgent wishes. Nothing wrong with thinking that either. He even admits he had a couple of self indulgent wishes himself, about Finn’s character and his stormtrooper background. He admitted that he would have liked to learn about that.

He actually agrees with this young brown man. He agrees that the films need to show more inclusion. He disagreed with him about Finn’s arc being bad. And sorry, explaining someone what “tone deaf” is when the other person doesn’t know what it means is not whitesplaing, hesplaining, shesplaining, mansplaining of something of that sort. It is simply explaining. When you don’t know something and somebody explains it to you that’s call learning.
Unfortunate I’m not able to read that reddit email. I’d love to and comment on the source itself.

He’s actually not saying that. He’s just defending his view that the film has good storytelling and tries to argument it. He repeatedly says that he understands if people don’t like the film. His main issue actually is that some people when saying the film is “badly written” they don’t give valid explanations as to why and often don’t treat the material with the due consideration.

There is nothing wrong with trying to defend your point of view and making people understand, which is very clearly what this author wants to do in this article. He’s just speculating about why perhaps others don’t think in the same way he does. He very clearly believes the storytelling in the film is good and is frustrated by the fact that many base their criticism of the story on personal wishes and disappointments.

I do agree with this gentleman in many things and disagree with him in a few others. I agree with him too when he says that at times TLJ does ask too much from the audience. The storytelling is indeed sound but the screenplay wasn’t as good and sharp as it could have been.

It Is ok to disagree with what this man is saying and even to think he’s presumptuous, but he’s not insulting anyone, not even if you feel alluded by his comments. He’s just trying to explain why a person with certain preconceptions would not like TLJ.

I also find interesting how a person with a good argument, good insight, good language skills who dares to debunk the argument of others becomes a “passive aggressive elitist”. You see, for me the problem is that people don’t admit often enough that they don’t “get it” and I’m not only talking about TLJ. We all should be that little bit more humble.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 23, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 23, 2018 ---

You see, I know what you’re saying. Finn’s growth in TLJ is not carried out in the way I would have preferred either. I would have liked something much more substantial for him with Poe preferably, but that is the point this author was making, because he himself wanted to see something different for Finn too: we cannot judge what RJ has done just basing our criticism on our wishful thinking. We have to engage with the arc for Finn in TLJ, see how it fits in the story over all and accept it for what it is: the transformation of a good hearted boy with no ideals and convictions into a fully formed man with clear socio-political goals. I admit it was a good arc and the character of Rose brought a lot to the table (even though her lines on occasion felt a bit rushed). I think with a few twitches to the sequence in canto bight his story would have landed much better with me than it did.