THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

This is an interesting point, and furthers my belief that you don't bring back characters from one era and throw them into another era. Every era of movies has a type of character that fit that era. The 50's/60's Westerns had John Wayne and Gary Cooper, who were the strong/silent type. Then the 70's had the anti-hero with The French Connection, Dirty Harry, Serpico, Apocalypse Now as these characters were still good guys but with a shade of grey. The late 70's/early 80's ushered in what I call the 'ultimate good guys who could kick a**' with Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones, Marty McFly, John McLain.

The current male characters in this era fit the profile you mentioned above and that is why you can't take a 40 year old franchise whose characters came out of the 'ultimate good guy who could kick a**' era and throw them into the 2018 male character era you mentioned. It is no different then throwing 1971 Dirty Harry into 1988 Dead Pool movie (Dirty Harry part 5) as his type of anti-hero just didn't work in the 1980's type hero.

That is why I get mad when a part of the fanbase gets scolded for not liking the new type of characters they are portraying in 2018. I have no problem if they want to make movies with those type of male characters that you described above, because as I said, every era's heroes are different and evolve. But I will counter and say if they want to evolve the male character, then stop going back to the future and using it on an existing franchise! Every movie era is a time period of our society, and it should stay that way instead of updating something from the past, yet only evolving the characters.

My point is that you sort of made the argument why the OT characters shouldn't have been used, and why this Trilogy should have been about Rey, Kylo Ren, Finn, Poe, BB8 and Snoke, yet it would have NOTHING to do with Luke, Leia and Han. Then they can make the characters whatever way they want to be in the 2018 era of male/female trope. But once you mix eras and then say, 'It would appear that these new films are not for you," then you are contradicting yourself because they are really using the OLD films template with new characters. They should be using a new story with new characters, and then you can truly say that these films evolved.

 

Let me answer this post as the quote you are referring to is mine, not @KeithF1138.


First of all, I think the new films and their message work best because they utilise the old characters and manage to show a proper generational, relatable conflict: Having Han Solo, a man with a heart of gold but prone to avoiding responsibility, and Leia, a career oriented woman with no support system, as failed parents of Kylo Ren and having Luke, this boy’s inexperienced-in-life idealistic uncle, overwhelmed by the challenges that growing up with the weight of fame and the capricious power of the force presented to this boy (an experience luke himself never had) strongly roots this space opera in our time. It makes it relatable and interesting to a teenage or young adult audience and their parents. It makes it relevant, as good entertainment should IMO.


When I said “this film is not for you”, I was referring the the glaring fact that the poster in question did not enjoy having the male characters “acting like buffoons”. I understood by this statement, the poster would have preferred male characters behaving in a more traditional male fashion, being heroic regardless of women, instead of having men behaving in an honorable fashion with the help and support of women along the way, as it frequently happens in real life. These films just dared to show their male characters in the process of becoming better heroes.

 

I apologize to @KeithF1138 as I must have gotten everyone's posts mixed up when I quoted it.

I don't think anyone has a problem with female characters saving the day (for the male character) as many of us grew up with The Terminator and Alien films where Sarah Connor and Ripley were strong women who carried the film without the help of men. Even back in 1977, Leia was sort of ahead of her time as she did not take an s**t from the men, "Into the garbage shoot flyboy!"

The key word we are talking about regarding the male characters is 'buffoons' and I think that is what bothers people. Did we really need to swing the pendulum THAT far and make many of them buffoons in the new movies? General Hux feels like a character straight out of Spaceballs, especially with that opening scene. When Poe is mocking Kylo Ren in TFA, Kylo Ren doesn't even bat an eye as he kills Lor San Tekka and then takes out the whole village. Poe mocks General Hux to the point where his 2nd in command picks up on the joke and actually makes reference of it just like Colonel Sanders does to Lord Helmet in Spaceballs! When Han mocks that guy in ANH, "We're fine, we're all fine, how are you?" He is a low level guard, but can you imagine Han mocking General Tarkin the same way? (wouldn't have happened), and him going on not knowing he was getting played? When Leia makes a sarcastic remark to Tarkin in ANH he answers, "Charming, to the last..." And then he blows up Alderran!

So my point is that they didn't need to take the male characters that far to one side of buffoonery to make the point of the strong women on the other side, as they could have done both without either extreme. Padme was a strong women, Leia was a strong women, heck Mon Mothma was the Rebellion Leader in ROTJ, and she is beloved by the fanbase when she appeared in Rogue One. That is why you don't mix generations of movies with character types, because you get this mixed message.

As I said before, if they wanted to explore the modern male and female character of 2018, I'm all for it, just make an original story and don't use a beloved 40 year old franchise! Don't make Episode 7 (which is taken straight from Episode 4) and then update it to what they feel the characters should be. You can't have it both ways!

 

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. By that logic, the OT shouldn't exist because it has an Empire and a Rebellion which are "Earth" things. The OT has references to "Earth" mythos as well as history. The uniforms of the generals have Nazi feel to them, The Battle of Endor was a metaphor for the Vietnam war.

 

But Poe is a man. Hux is not mocked by a woman. Hux is a buffoon without the help of a woman. It was a creative choice made by RJ. I don't see any woman coming out of that exchange portrayed any better or any worse.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 25, 2018 ---

I don't know about the Mothma lady, but Padme did not challenge Anakin in his turn to the dark, she was merely one of the reasons for it, and Leia never challenged Han either. She had banter with Han, sharp words, but in the end she always adored him more than influenced him. That was fair enough, as Padme and Anakin and Han and Leia were merely basic romantic partners on screen.

In the ST, JJ and RJ have decided to make women part of their heroes' growth. The women in these scenarios appear wise and mature, except from Rey, whose journey and growth is similar to that of the male heroes. It is what it is. Men have been raised and nurtured by women for centuries. Why is it so unpalatable to see women displaying that role in the galaxy far far away?

 

But you are compaing romatic relationships in the OT/PT, while the ST has yet to have one on screen, so it's apples and oranges. Leia challenges the men in the OT when it comes to her duty as a soldier, remember SHE is the one who is the leader in the Battle of Yavin and Battle of Hoth, while Mon Monthma is the leader in ROTJ. A romantic relationship is different in that sense, as even Han becomes a bit more toned down in ROTJ (remember the scene on Endor after Leia finds out about her father from Luke and doesn't want to talk, as old Han would have walked away, but ROTJ Han came back and comforted Leia).

Lets see how the ST handles a romantic relationship and then we can compare it to Leia/Han or Anakin/Padme. I hear from a lot of fans hear who want Rey-Lo to happen, and that still astounds me. She watched Kylo kill his father, and try to kill Luke, and they want her to be romantically linked to him? That sets women back if you ask me, IMO. Or maybe people mean Rey-Lo in a sense of them ruling the galaxy, not romantically? I could be wrong, so any Rey-Lo fans out please specify exactly what you mean?

 

In short? Because that is what sexism has been about for centuries.
Women role is identified with the taking care of children.
As if you cannot be nothing else but a mother, or as if if you are not a mother you’re not a true woman,

That is why I personally think that to call TLJ a feminist movie both in a good or in a bad way,
it’s fundamentally... wrong.
I am sure they wanted to promote women, but they took it it all wrong.

If the main purpose of women in this story is to take care of children and broken men,
to cherish and save them, then sorry, but we still are in Middle Ages.

We are into the Catholic Church rethoric. Be patience, pray and save him.

And not... the OT offers imo a far healthier rapresentation of the relationships
between men and women.
No one ever questioned Leia or Mom Mothma when they acted as a leaders.
No one.
In doing so, the movies simply showed how things should be in a healthy world/galaxy.
Women can be and can be shown as respected and competent leaders without lecturing people.
Men can trust them just like they do with other men without any need of be lectured.

Leia never asked Han to changed his mind, he did.
Because he was inspired by her, by Luke, by whatever
and whoever. But no one, and surely no woman, begged him.
And he took his choice alone.
The romantic relationship between Han and Leia made them both two better/healthier persons.
Etc....

And I’ll say it again: I’ve never seen a male hero, spending an entire movie begging two women
to show him his place in his story. Never.
I’ve never seen a male hero that is absent from the movie finale.
Or to say it better a movie with a male hero whose finale is not about him, mainly.
And so on...
I cannot understand why Kylo’s shirtless scene isn’t labeled for what it really is: a sexist scene.

And I won’t go any further trying to explain why Reylo and feminism should be
considered 2 things that exclude one another.

 

It's good and evil battle all the way, the design was supposed to connect with the nazis ( I didn't see anything Vietnam in Endor but I'm not american so we don't care much about Vietnam ) but the dialogs weren't about mother's jokes, calling people dude or so on.

It was a galactic journey and when I see a SW movie, I really appreciate a space journey ( Rogue One was good for this ) and I don't want to be on Earth problems again. Just let is aside for 2 hours.

Just my opinion.

The scene where Leia slapped Poe was somehow sexist because in no way, we could have a man slapping a woman in the same situation ( which I'm OK with ).

The violence suffered by many characters left me confused especially in a family movie with kids.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 25, 2018 ---

Having your villains as buffoons was a strange idea. Hux has no credibility at all as a villain.

The Empire was threatening, menacing, impressing.

The first order is not. All they do is yelling.

 

About Padme...
She’s introduced as strong and intelligent woman.
The point is, that strong and intelligent woman are not... perfect.
They do commit mistakes.
In addition, it’s not that intelligent and strong women never fall for the wrong guy.

Ep. II is the turning point.
The moment Anakin confesses what he did, that was the right moment for her
to realize that he was going down another path.

Unfortunately she miss that.
Her love and compassion wasn’t enough to save him.
When she realizes the truth... it’s a little bit too late.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 25, 2018 ---

One last thing...
Do you remember Leia after Alderaan gets destroyed?
Is she desperate? No.

But in TLJ she’s showen in a moment of desperation because of what happened to the fleet.

Can I say that is out of character?

And can I say that to use that scene to show Leia as a mother, desperate not because
What happened to the fleet, butbecause her son
has just killed his father and her lover, maybe could have been a far better idea?

Because it’s not that I have problems with mothers or with Leia being a mother.
On the contrary.

 

This is odd because this post says it is a reply to a quote from me. I clicked on the reference

Yes Star Wars has had strong women and so have other films like you mentioned. What many men didnt like in TLJ was that the difference is the women had power and had no problem challenging the men. Even in ANH it was Luke who challenged Han not to go. Leia was all sympathetic for the male hero to do what he thinks is best. TLJ had women challenging men. Putting them in there place and telling subordinates who happen to be men to answer when asked for.

 

Well, she was a prisoner (you can see the desperation on her face once the laser is fired, btw) and there was nothing she can do about it, once she got the Rebel base as she does say, "We have no time for sorrows, Commander. You must use the information in this R2 unit to help plan the attack- it's our only hope." If they used that time to mourn instead of prepare they'd be dead. Its hard to say really, but all the emotions of the, lets just say past week (TLJ takes place probably weeks after TFA) is taken its toll on her.

 

I never said these films are feminist.

Let’s rewind. I said first that TFA raised gender issues, with elements such as “that girl” and in TLJ with Poe’s difficulty following orders from his female leaders (this last example is for me less obvious as I feel Poe has difficulty following orders from anyone, but hey, we have to accept that both leaders were women and that was probably intentional). Afterwards, other posters said they found males depicted as “buffoons” in these films whereas women are always strong. I answered saying that perhaps those posters preferred heroes being so regardless of women instead of with the support and influence of women as it has been shown in TLJ. Like you, I don’t see this display being particularly feminist or empowering for women... apart from the fact that this mentoring/influencing role is very often performed by women in real life and it’s pertinent to show it played out in SW, incidentally opening vacancies to female actresses to appear in a SW’s film. Also the fact that these mentoring women, in the case of Leia and holdo, are leaders could somewhat make them be perceived as empowered.

With the catholic rhetoric and the praying to save men you lost me... I suppose this is a criticism at the idea of Reylo.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 25, 2018 ---

I am not criticising the choices of the OT or the PT. I’m just saying that the women in the ST, like Leia, holdo, Maz, Rose and Rey have been shown, in different occasions, displaying nurturing, mentoring, influencing roles (in their dialogues and dealings with the male characters) i have not seen or noticed in the other trilogies... I did not criticise the love stories. I love them!

And I would actually love to see some kind of Reylo, as you all already know... because I’ve made no secret of it Shoot me!

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 25, 2018 ---

I may be wrong, but so far the ST seems not to be interested in showing the type of imposing menacing villains of the Empire. It doesn’t seem they are part of the story they want to tell.

 

It is because the FO is not the empire. It is neither as strong nor as mature. Call the FO the poor mans Empire. Snoke not Emperpor, Kylo not Vader, Hux not Tarkin, etc. etc. etc.

 

But it is done as if the 1st order was threatening enough to build a resistance.

The problem is when you see the supreme leader, you just want to tell him to clean his room and that he is grounded.

I didn't think the same when I saw Vader or Palps.

 

Kylocity, you are going down a path I cannot following. You're breaking my heart!

 

I know... Reylo is the dark side of the fandom

Mind you Rey-Poe or Rey-Finn would be cool too. I just want a bit of lovin’ !

 

Or Maz and Chewy! Rey, Finn, Rose and Poe can all chip in and get him that medal he never received in ANH for his wedding!

 

I know... Reylo is the dark side of the fandom

Mind you Rey-Poe or Rey-Finn would be cool too. I just want a of lovin’

Hahaha that's what we would call a proper mixed marriage!

Funny, when Maz says "where's my boyfriend?" and "I love that wookie" I understood it as the sort of joke a grown up would say to a child about another child to make them giggle... Also maybe because I heard JJ mention that Maz was inspired by teacher he had when young... I thought everyone understood it that way until I read some people saying that maybe maz and chewie had a thing...

 

Off topic.

Bioware did an awesome story job for SWTOR. When they had to introduce new features, they wiped all they already had released to build a new story

Introducing Valkoryon, Thexan and Arkhan.

Introducing Senya and Vaylin.

No Earth problems, no already known characters and just with the trailers you want to know more about these characters. Villains are not buffoons because if you're one, there is no way in Hell you can rule the galaxy. It's not meant to be funny but even if you don't know any of these dudes, you're definitely in a GFFA.

I'm still on the verge that they should have made a new era with brand new characters and plan a trilogy before filming it.

 

@Kylocity I get your point. But I was trying to prove how wrong - in my eyes - are those who spoke about
the so called feminist agenda of the movie as the problem, and those who speak about how great the movie
is because of that.

I personally believe the OT did better. From this point of view.
Just because it didn’t show women doing only or mainly what they are traditionally
century after century, by sexist societies, portrayed doing.

I think that sometimes showing how things may be, it’s more powerful that showing
how they - unfortunately - still are.

I can say, that I always took Leia as a strong woman and as a competent leader.
And I can see why many women (and men) can be inspired by a character like that.

At the same time, I find hard to perceice Rey as a strong female character: she’s powerful, not a strong woman.
And I don’t take Holdo as a competent leader.
Quite the opposite.

But I’m pretty sure that the purpose of the writer was another.
To me, he just failed.

But I am... and old fashion feminist.
And maybe I just cannot help but lecturing people

@Andrew Waples I should have said better...
Just because of what I said above (again) I wanted to make clear that the problem for me
is not that a woman cannot be a mother or that I am not interested in seeing the struggles
that a character who is also a mother may face.
Actually I believe that it could have been a meaningful addition to Leia’s arc.

But the weird thing is that we see her treating Poe as a surrogate child ( the slap
in the face is something that we accept only because she’s a woman, acting like a mother..
so much so - as @Bandini pointed out - that only a man in that position - a superior - who’s also a villain
would do the same in a movie, just because he is a villain) and we don’t have any deeper insight
to her feelings about her son.

I mean... we see the consequences with Luke, but not with her.

One may have tested her too.
And to see her desperate for the first time ever, because of that (her son) not because she lost
the fleet... that could have been a nice addition to the journey of this character.

I was interested is seeing Leia as mother too. With her son, first and foremost.

It would have been interesting I think.