THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I really like TLJ - definitely don't hate it. I think they got LS wrong. But otherwise its a great movie. I think RJ got Kylo Ren REALLY right. But my fear is he will be redeemed and/or turn good in IX. This would be a monumentally bad move. I don't want him to be good, I want him to be even meaner, more evil. He has to be ended(sorry @NinjaRen). That - IMO - is the only way to finish the Kylo Ren character.

 

For myself, as much as I believe they didn't have enough of an outline, it just seems so amateurish, from an organization such as Disney, to have nothing that it's so unlikely that it almost can't be believed.

That said, I've always admitted that I don't know for sure. I can't help but think they must have had some reference points, broad strokes, but the more I read the more I'm having to question that belief, or at least the extent to how much was or wasn't planned. I can't help but feel RJ went off on his own tangent in TLJ, but I can't say definitively that there was no plan, just that it wasn't very well planned out, or there was disagreement or misunderstanding or miscommunication among the heads that resulted in inconsistencies in the story.

 

You see I've always thought they didn't even have broad strokes, you go back to the way JJ talked about writing force awakens, the tight time scale he was on, the way he talked was they hardly had time to write episode 7 never-mind out line a trilogy, you hear things like Poe was meant to die, but then changed it, that the force vision was very different up-till the last minute, Plus this is JJ we re talking about he came up with Lost which was basically the same thing he set up loads of mysteries without very clearly having an answer.

You add to that we've been told countless times Rian Johnson was given a complete control to do whatever he wants and him and JJ collaborated at most very little.

We know that Colin Trevorrow had a similar free reign before he was fired/left, and JJ came back with a blank slate and started from Scatch.

You also add in the troubled production with Rogue One Solo and the ill fated Tranks Boba Fett that lets not for get even had a teaser made, Does this sound like a studio that has even a vague plan?

People just like to believe they have a plan becuase they idea that some one could be so careless with a property that means so much to so many people as to put nearly no planning into a trilogy people have wanted to see for 30+ years, and not only did they not bother working on a plan and are completely winging it, but they are also rushing it, JJ was rushed, Rian didnt hadn't even seen force awakens finished when the script for 8 was finished & JJ now is basically working from 2 years from having no script to been in the cinema.

People just don't want to believe that, people need to believe things have a purpose, people are still looking for clues as to what it all means based on episode 7 & 8 or even more hilariously what happens in the books, when the fact is they all mean nothing as their was no plan to any of them!

 

Personally I'm open for everything.
1) Kylo Ren redeemed and alive
2) Kylo Ren redeemed and dead
3) Kylo Ren evil and alive
4) Kylo Ren evil and dead

I'm curious what JJ has chosen for IX : D

 

To me, my disbelief isn't so much LFL/Disney caring about the fans, but them caring about the 4+ billion spent on the property. I don't think very much of Hollywood and would not have a problem believing that they're snobby enough to believe themselves much more intelligent than other people that they could pull a non-planned trilogy off and please the dumb general audience. I just think someone along the line would balk at that idea, someone high enough up, to tell them they don't have the authority to make that call on 4+ billion of invested money. If not KK, at least Iger would step in and say you need a better outline, more specifics ect... you've veered off your plan and this isn't okay. I'm not sure what discussions are going on behind closed doors.

My thinking is that JJ had a plan with KK at the beginning that KK approved, but that plan became less and less specific as the trilogy wore on. RJ picked it up and was given a lot of freedom and changed some things that JJ had planned because his plan lacked in specifics, so it didn't out and out contradict what JJ had in mind. It may have even veered a little more while in production. Maybe as a fan KK enjoyed the surprise she got at seeing the final product of RJ's work. JJ likely added to his outline of the trilogy and where he assumed it would go while he was making TFA and TLJ veered his ideas far off course to where he thought it was logically headed. It didn't bother him at first because it wasn't his project, but now he sees the trilogy on the line, heck the entire saga, and he probably feels responsible for not defining his thoughts more clearly on an outline to KK so he took on the job to not be known as the guy who destroyed SW.

If he is to be known as that, the guy who destroyed SW, he at least wants a shot to fix it himself. So it speaks to KK not demanding more out of her producers and Iger trusting that things were going well and not staying apprised of their new 4 billion dollar toy. Yet I say all this, and I don't rightly know. Maybe this is par for the course in Hollywood and they just are not that smart and professional to start off with. We only got that impression from guys like Peter Jackson and his work on LotR, but that's because he was a fan of the books and he had established books to work off of. Maybe without established material, they just are not that good or talented to create something, and that's saying nothing as to how hard that would be to begin with. Making a SW story, trilogy no less, from scratch in less than 3 years.

It's quite possible there was just an arrogance/confidence there and it's so ingrained that even after the product misses the mark on some and gets criticism, they fail to see or accept that they might be the problem or that fans might have a point and would rather blame it on a toxic fandom than accept the blame and the fallout that might do to their careers. Iger covers KK because he realizes he should have been more involved, KK covering RJ and JJ because she realizes maybe she should have had a tighter grip on them, and JJ and RJ defending their products because their careers will be impacted if they do anything else. Maybe they aim to just confuscate the issue enough to bring the fandom to where it is. Some believing it's all been planned, and others believing there's nothing and every opinion in between.

In the end, I don't think it matters much, because I just don't like what they've done lol. Planned or not, this trilogy feels like people who barely have a grasp of SW and have just been throwing spaghetti at a wall. I think JJ got the tone right, but it's becoming clear that his mystery boxes (most if not all) were not defined in any outline and were thus subject to change by RJ without KK having any valid argument to say no due to that lack of outline.

Then of course some will argue that the OT didn't have a fully fleshed out plan either. The big difference however is that GL had control of that property, so the overarching story felt more cohesive. Yes, his story changed, but he had most of the story thought out, he just had to tighten it up, and make certain already established characters take on more than he anticipated or had planned, but overall the story was close to the same. I don't believe the ST had that level of thought, it wasn't written out in advanced with its flaws plain to see by editors to pick at and modify and the author to see the logic in making those changes. That's why we got Holdo, which I think if it had been written out before hand and a competent editor looked at it, would have suggested not adding 2 new pretty big characters who were otherwise unknown at this point of the story. Holdo would probably have been changed to Ackbar, or his daughter... something that felt connected. Rose may have been morphed with DJ in some way to give her more of a Lando feel. However, without a written out story, with KK only having an outline and a rushed time table, she trusted in her producers and writing teams, it came off a bit sloppy for some but probably closer to what the OT would have been had GL not been open to changes made by Kasdan and others.

So maybe in a way Iger is right to shoulder the blame, because by he rushing this out may have given KK an out for not having as tight of control on the product, and by extension JJ and RJ. So it makes sense now that they all cover each other because if perception is that it's the fans fault, than it gets them all off the hook. If they can portray confidence enough and fans like what was made, then they successfully winged a SW saga and their perception of SW fans hold, that they could manufacture the appearance of depth where there was none and enough fans bought it to validate their preconceptions.

Then again, this is all just theory, maybe it's something entirely different. It's just my personal impression.

 

I would hope for 1 but would settle for 2. I really want him to live through this trilogy.

 

You don't say

 

I liked this video because I wish SW fans with differing opinions can communicate this way more often then the toxic stuff we've often seen on both sides.

The good news is that I think a lot of the fandom has learned from TLJ and has grown. Maybe that's just my perception now that things have calmed, but I hope it's more than that.

 

What I hate most about The Last Jedi is the Apathy it has left me with in regard to episode 9

 

For me it was the worst Star Wars experience. I still remember the devastated feeling when the credits rolled. Compared with TFA it felt like two regisseurs worked against each others scripts to make some sort of stupid statement. As a fan of Episode 4-6 I was shocked how they have written Lukes character and I wish they gave us at least one happy scene with all of the former crew united before they destroy everything.

 

On TLJ bonus documentary you can see how much time, effort and money was spent/wasted on creating that Sea Cow for Luke to milk, yet a much more important and powerful 20 second scene of Luke grieving for Han was cut. Just one of my gripes with this film.

 

Usually, when I go to the cinema to watch a movie I try to not drink as much before the film to prevent me from going to the toilet too often. If I do go to the toilet during the movie I often try to make it as quick as possible. And I normally feel bad about having missed a bit of the movie. For tlj, I just didn't care.

 

For those of us who despise The Last Jedi, John Campea is reporting that Rian Johnsons new Star Wars films are in turnaround (or cancelled, as I think it was in such an early stage of development that it wouldn't even be considered "turn around").

The bad thing: They are going to run with B&W. I had issues with seasons 4-7, but held out hope/belief/confidence that they would stick the landing. Season 8, episode 1, I was worried. Episode 2 was better, but I had misgivings. Episode 3.... Episode 4, Dear God they are insane. HOPEFULLY these two dummies will not screw this up as well. We shall see. But at least there will be no Rian Johnson.

 

I totally lost faith in D&D, as they have essentially butchered GOT past Season 6. George RR Martin wrote his storylines that go from Point A to Point B to Point C to Point D, so the payoff felt earned because it was developed so well. D&D have written Seasons 7 & 8 storylines to go from Point A to Point D, as there is no development of anything and nothing makes sense. I LOVED this show for 6 seasons and now I am going through the motions even trying to care about the final 2 episodes (sort of like Episode 9: The Rise of Skywalker) LOL!

 

I hear ya man. I had misgivings as early as season 3, but I bit my tongue and justified the changes as being due to different mediums. However, I think George himself said it best, changes are like butterflies. It's all good for now, but eventually some of those changes turn into dragons. And that is what has happened. The removal of the Dornish plot, the removal of fake Aegon, the changing around of characters for convenience, all of it has finally come home to roost, so to speak. Heck, even recently George said something to the extent of "I don't put characters into my stories for nothing." Just because we can't see the payoff presently they are important. B&W screwed the pooch on this one.

I'll watch the last two episodes just to see it to the end, but yeah, I'm not excited at all. Same goes for IX. I am excited due to Palpatine and Landowner's and Chewie (and I do like Kylo), but never have I been this unexcited about Star Wars. Sad days.

 

I don't know who John Campea is but I definitely agree with his thinking and the recent Disney announcement of the new Star Wars releases (December '22, '24, '26) really only reinforces that belief.

I have been saying for almost 18 months now there will be no Rian Johnson trilogy. A lot of people attacked me for that belief, but I am standing by it. After this week's goings-on, I feel it even more strongly.

 

I have not read the books so I totally understand that part of the fanbase being frustrated with the changes (I work with a girl who loves the books and she has told me about all of the changes over the years). I actually can live with the changes of characters, or leaving things out simply because TV is a different medium than a novel. The best way to put it is 'the book is always better.'

My beef with the show is how they totally made a hard left turn in their storytelling after Season 6. The first 6 seasons were 10 episodes, all paced the same, and everything was developed that payed off at the end of the season. Then you get these shortened Season 6 and 7 that feel like they are trying to check off everything they feel is 'cool' and will wow the viewer and have sacrificed any character development, or rushed character development. It just feels like 2 completely different shows from 1-6 and Seasons 7-8, and that is why I just don't care anymore. That has led to my suspicion that D&D care more about wowing fans with Dragons than getting the little dramatic scenes right. That is my problem with the modern blockbuster is that it's all the wow factor these days, and they are sacrificing the storytelling because of it. The ST faces the same problems as the story is the weakest part of the new movies simply because they can't think of anything original. And the only thing that is remotely original (in their minds) is subverting the expectations of the fans, which is something I DESPISE in movies cause it's such a cheap trick. The Battle of Winterfell was exactly that, and that is why I despise that episode so much.

Sorry, rant over! lol

 

No one has attacked you for having an opinion. People have disagreed with the why. I've never been 100% on the RJ trilogy simply because that's the nature of future projects. They're never 100% until they're made.

It's been clear for some time that the B&W project was the next in line (even though it was announced after RJ). So it stands to reason with the Star Wars films ever two years model they can't to two series at the same time. Kennedy just said that RJ and B&W were going to meet this month to figure out a plan. Disney, Lucasfilm, and Kennedy love Rian Johnson so he'll be around in some capacity, but can't blame him or Disney for not committing to a project 10 years from now.

This next Star Wars project is the most ambitious thing Lucasfilm has done since the original trilogy. They have to make a film that appeals to new fans and keeps old fans happy. It won't be easy and if that first film isn't well received what ever plan they have will have to be reevaluated.

 

Sure they have. Several people have gotten quite worked up when I expressed my belief there would be no Rian Johnson trilogy, especially when I held onto that belief in the wake of his "all is well!" tweets.

You've been his - and his trilogy's - #1 cheerleader since December 2017, but I am glad you are coming around to the realization that it isn't looking too good that the trilogy will ever happen. He may get some sort of throw away "Creative Consultant" or "Executive Producer" credit but little else.

Disney is very concerned about how Star Wars will be received when they create a movie with no ties to the original trilogy. They could very well discover that the box office that Solo got is not the exception but the new norm. (I don't mean for E9, I mean for the post-Skywalker GFFA) I know I would be vey excited for a KOTOR trilogy. I'm not so sure the general audiences will be though.

 

Rian Johnson is going to be fine either way. He's a fantastic story teller and he'll be making movies for a long time. Knives Out is one of more anticipated non-franchise films of the year. As a film fan I'm happy he'll be doing thing. As a Star Wars fan I'll be disappointed he wasn't allowed to create something new.

At least he'll still be a part of the Lucasfilm family going forward. That team needs all the help they can get..