1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

The Basic Plot of The Rise of Skywalker, Updated and Expanded: Act I (Via JediPaxis)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Himmel, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Trophy Points:
    6,092
    Credits:
    1,746
    Ratings:
    +2,209 / 105 / -32
    I disagree.

    The important thing about Palpatine's return in TRoS is that he's returned.

    The mechanics of that return are inconsequential when it comes to the film itself.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Posts:
    4,360
    Likes Received:
    15,445
    Trophy Points:
    146,267
    Credits:
    14,965
    Ratings:
    +20,587 / 309 / -97
    Not to push this too far off topic. Game of Thrones was always a formulaic series that I enjoyed that was also very overrated as a well written series. Dany's turn in that series was foreshadowed to the point of being comical that anyone could object to it.

    A sizable portion of the GOT freakout was people didn't their story wishes or something. That seems to be a common internet problem.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
  3. Maximillian

    Maximillian Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Posts:
    541
    Likes Received:
    974
    Trophy Points:
    4,717
    Credits:
    1,674
    Ratings:
    +1,434 / 31 / -5
    I mean, from a world building point of view, someone needs to know. like JJ needs to know the answer. 'He's a clone.' 'hes a powerful darkside spirit' 'hes a holocron.'
    and then, appropriate hints and conversations to the narrative need to be included. I don't need, nor do I think the audience need, a big long explanation but...the creators do need to have a big serious legitimate explanation even if they choose not to lean into exposing it too much to the audience, because, world building, when it comes to fantasy is paramount. and stuff that breaks the credibility of the world makes an audience go cold.
    the bombs that 'fell' onto the super star destroyed in TLJ broke me out of that world because I couldn't understand the gravity in space appearance of that spectacle, and like, its lazy to say 'oh go read about how it all works in this companion guide,'...like that is lazy story telling. so while I don't need an explanation for the ins and outs of sidious's return, JJ has to absolute 100% have a good answer that gels with the film without breaking the credibility of the world. how much he can get away with showing visually and how much we need to have someone spell it all out to us is unimportant compared the the fact that it must work in-universe.

    I have the same problem with the Luke-hologram fight in TLJ, that power is not for-shadowed and feels lazy and cheap as a narrative device. it would have been easy to include any sort of build up or hint to it, instead, it felt to me, like a really cheap party trick. and palp's coming back could be the same. so its got to be handled properly, and the first step for that to work is JJ and the story guys knowing 1. why he is back, 2. how he is back.
    How much they deem is relevant to the audience is secondary to them knowing in my opinion. The absolute worst thing would be if JJ himself didn't know how Palpatine came back and just didn't include an explanation coz he couldn't come up with one. that will feel inherently fake on screen.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Posts:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    2,530
    Trophy Points:
    11,187
    Credits:
    5,637
    Ratings:
    +4,664 / 62 / -26
    Agreed.
    And then the second most important thing is how.

    If this is literally the same being, still alive as we understand everything that word to represent, then we need to know how his body survived being reduced to atoms in the forest moon's orbit.

    If he is just some kind of spirit entity inhabiting another body, then that will hopefully be fairly self-evident, will be much easier to digest, and will require very little, if any, explanation.

    That's the distinction I am making.

    ... But of significant consequence to the movie within the context of it being an entry in a nine-part saga. Which is what it is.

    I'm not saying I'm unhappy with Palpatine's return.
    And I'm not saying they need to explain how he survived in any great detail.
    I'm looking at it the other way around, I'm saying the spoilers probably point to him being in this movie in a far more abstract way than people are perhaps expecting. :)
     
  5. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Trophy Points:
    6,092
    Credits:
    1,746
    Ratings:
    +2,209 / 105 / -32
    ^ I understand your argument, and I disagree with it.

    Whether or not TRoS' story and Palpatine's part in it works will not in any way be affected by a lack of explanation of the mechanics and mechanisms behind his survival.
     
  6. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Posts:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    2,530
    Trophy Points:
    11,187
    Credits:
    5,637
    Ratings:
    +4,664 / 62 / -26
    Get ya - respect your opinion and all that, and not wanting to drag this out, but I'm just curious - what if it was, say, Tarkin, or Jabba who were back and they had a legitimate role to play in the story? Would you feel the same about that?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Trophy Points:
    6,092
    Credits:
    1,746
    Ratings:
    +2,209 / 105 / -32
    ^ With Palpatine's death, there is a greater degree of ambiguity than exists with any of the other major villain characters that Star Wars has given us since 1977. The galaxy at large did believe him to be dead - as did the audience - but because of the nature of his death, the 'kernel' of a return was always there, even if nobody ever thought that said kernel would actually be picked up on.

    The deaths of characters like Tarkin and Jabba are much more definitive and absolute, which would require at least a cursory explanation of some kind in order to work on a logistical level and allow the audience to suspend their disbelief, but such is not the case with Palpatine due to the more ambiguous nature of how he was seemingly dispatched of at the conclusion of Return of the Jedi.

    There is also a very strong mythological precedent to Palpatine returning without the mechanics and mechanisms behind said return being explained or being important to the internal narrative of TRoS specifically.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Posts:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    2,530
    Trophy Points:
    11,187
    Credits:
    5,637
    Ratings:
    +4,664 / 62 / -26
    Ok. I guess we just disagree on that then, and will continue to do so... :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  9. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Trophy Points:
    6,092
    Credits:
    1,746
    Ratings:
    +2,209 / 105 / -32
    ^ No hard feelings here.

    Civil disagreements make for good discussion.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  10. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Posts:
    2,350
    Likes Received:
    3,741
    Trophy Points:
    13,667
    Credits:
    5,652
    Ratings:
    +6,696 / 297 / -173
    What's with the up arrows? Reply button not working? Not being a smart ass. Just wondering.
     
  11. Darth Qaidous

    Darth Qaidous Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2014
    Posts:
    338
    Likes Received:
    559
    Trophy Points:
    6,277
    Credits:
    1,517
    Ratings:
    +820 / 39 / -47
    Even if just in passing Darth Sidious' return does need to be addressed somehow.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    Posts:
    1,272
    Likes Received:
    3,529
    Trophy Points:
    12,667
    Credits:
    5,051
    Ratings:
    +4,520 / 72 / -23
    I don't wanna take this off topic, but this is where I'm at with GOT. I do agree with @DailyPlunge that Daenery's going all "mad queen" was telegraphed, poorly and quite obviously, but it was there for all to see. I think part of the problem is it was too obvious, if that makes any sense.

    I also think they were definitely a betrayal of characters (Tyrion is suddenly a damn fool, Euron is like "deus-ex machina" whenever you need something bad to happen, etc.). The other problem is that they rushed things and it just felt like there were major gaps in the narrative.

    As for TROS, part of the problem, at least for some of us, is we felt burned by TLJ. To quote JJ, it was "very meta. I don't think people go to Star Wars to be told, 'This doesn't matter.'" So now when these leaks appear, some are weary.

    As for the YouTube crowd, I don't know. I mean, there has been a wave of positivity around The Mandalorian. I myself thought episodes 4 and 5, while good, were a bit weak. I'd grade them a "C." Average, not bad, but not great. The first 3 were each an "A" and yesterday was also an "A." But I haven't seen many negatives about the show (granted I don't follow the YouTube thing much but I did go glance at a few "fandom menace" channels and they seem to be pretty darn positive about it. So I don't think we can just blanket say all of the "outrage" channels will auto hate TROS.

    Oh well in a week we will be bitching about the film, or praising the film or bitching about some aspects and praising others. Come on December 20!!!!
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  13. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Posts:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    2,530
    Trophy Points:
    11,187
    Credits:
    5,637
    Ratings:
    +4,664 / 62 / -26
    Never seen a single episode of GOT... or "Peter Stringfellow's Lord Of The Rings" as Stewart Lee put it, so I couldn't possibly comment.

    I didn't have high hopes for The Mandalorian to be honest, but have been pleasantly surprised, and would probably rate the episodes so far exactly as you have @Darth Wardawg - I won't go into the reasons because this isn't really the place.
    But in a nutshell, it's exactly the kind of episodic thing I didn't think they were going to do, simple self-contained stories where the callbacks (mostly) serve a narrative purpose rather than just "hey - remember this?"

    Not something I feel the need to bang on about publically all the time, but - just so everyone knows what page I am on - TLJ was a real low point in the saga for me.
    I mean, I've seen discussions, and I've seen it attacked and defended again and again...
    The bottom line for me is it is just a bad film. Compared to other films I have seen that are good. No amount of GFFA-based justifications are going to change that for me.

    So my optimism for TROS is somewhat rekindled by the fact that it seems the "main three" are going to spend some quality time together, and that there seems to be an effort to make sense of a story that - for me at least - hasn't really gone anywhere for two movies despite some good performances from a likeable cast.
    And with The Mandalorian turning out the way it has (so far) I feel things may have actually turned a corner, so to speak...

    Part of me wishes they hadn't gone down the Palpatine route - but, hey, let's wait and see how it pans out...
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  14. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2015
    Posts:
    742
    Likes Received:
    1,203
    Trophy Points:
    7,367
    Credits:
    2,800
    Ratings:
    +1,715 / 37 / -2
    With regards explaining Palaptines I don't agree with people who say they don't need to explain it. You can't just have the guy who was in charge of galaxy thrown down a seemingly miles deep shaft on a ship that then explodes and then return 30+ years later with no proper explanation. That would be dreadful story telling.

    In regards to what that explanation can be, its up to the writers to sell the explanation to the audience. If they can do it in a few lines and it work then fine, If needs to be a integral part of the script for it then equally fine. As long as it is
    1. Interesting
    2. People buy into it.
    Then its fine.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
  15. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Trophy Points:
    6,092
    Credits:
    1,746
    Ratings:
    +2,209 / 105 / -32
    You can.

    No.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  16. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Posts:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    2,530
    Trophy Points:
    11,187
    Credits:
    5,637
    Ratings:
    +4,664 / 62 / -26
    Well, the thing for me is, the way I always took Palpatine's demise is kind of endorsed by the script they were filming at the time:

    "The Emperor's body spins helplessly into the void, arcing as it falls into the abyss. Finally, when the body is far down the shaft, it explodes, creating a rush of air through the room."

    His body explodes. He's dead. Ewoks yub nub away into the night. The end.
    I guess either I read it right, or they utterly failed in portraying what they set out to portray, and I just happened to read it wrong.

    And it is not out of the question to expect an explanation if he returns from that scenario.
    Why?
    Well, again, the proof is in the pudding.
    Tom Veitch obviously thought it was pretty important...
    return-of-the-emperor.jpg
    That's an explanation.
    Simple. Yes.
    Silly. Yes.
    But that's all that would be required (if Palpatine has survived in a literal sense, which, as I've said, I'm not convinced is going to be the case anyway...)
     
    #716 Get In Gear, Dec 15, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  17. Maximillian

    Maximillian Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Posts:
    541
    Likes Received:
    974
    Trophy Points:
    4,717
    Credits:
    1,674
    Ratings:
    +1,434 / 31 / -5
    your reply here is totally non-contributory. you don't have to respond to everything you disagree with, if you have nothing to add.

    it would be bad story telling.

    story1
    /ˈstɔːri/
    noun
    1. 1.
      an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.
      "an adventure story"
    2. 2.
      an account of past events in someone's life or in the development of something.
      "the story of modern farming"


    so to not adress this would by definiton fail to be a story and there for be bad story telling. and if in a 9 part saga the main villain returns after 30+ years, and you do not give an acount of it, you have by default told a bad story.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  18. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Posts:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    2,530
    Trophy Points:
    11,187
    Credits:
    5,637
    Ratings:
    +4,664 / 62 / -26
    Anyway, all academic now - the explanation may be forthcoming...
    I know this is a spoiler thread - but you really may not want to see this, so spoilered up ...
    eaa88f7.jpg
    And let's add "Exogol" as another check mark beside the JP basic plot outline, and a solid "X" against the "his info only came from the trailers" theory... unless a trailer airs in the next five days where the word Exogol is uttered...
     
    #718 Get In Gear, Dec 15, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
    • Like Like x 4
  19. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Trophy Points:
    6,092
    Credits:
    1,746
    Ratings:
    +2,209 / 105 / -32
    @Maximillian It is entirely possible to tell a good and coherent story without being required to explain every single element of said story.

    Some things are allowed to 'just happen' as part of the story without having to be explained.

    To use an example, we didn't need an explanation for how Voldemort survived the events of Halloween 1981; we were eventually given that information within the overall context of the Harry Potter story, but that story would've worked just fine if JK Rowling had chosen not to provide it to us.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Maximillian

    Maximillian Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Posts:
    541
    Likes Received:
    974
    Trophy Points:
    4,717
    Credits:
    1,674
    Ratings:
    +1,434 / 31 / -5
    I was actually thinking of both Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter and the fact both narratives also have the main antagonist survive death and re-surface. and I completely disagree with you that the story would have worked just fine if we had never found out how Voldemort survived. it was revealed in the late in the game but, if she had never realed it at all, I would have thought much less of her as a story teller. nothing in a story can 'just happen.' chance can play an element and luck, and bad luck but actual narrative events, plot points, need addressing. I think story telling has gotten incredibly lazy with many people settleing for less than they should.

    I don't consider JK Rowling a great story teller, or world builder but even she did provide us with clarity around Voldemorts return, had she not, perhaps you would have been fine with it, but many would have had questions for her. also its important to note that the first harry potter novel was for young children to read, with no expectation on it, and to be honest its not a great read, her skills as a storyteller vastly improved as she went and as she went along she filled in the blanks.

    so, yeah, agree to disagree I guess.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...

Share This Page