SPECULATION The Official Rey's Parents in Ep. IX Thread

I will be honest here. Kylo killed his father, a heroic character, and fan favorite. I don't believe he can be redeemed. Snoke tricked Rey into thinking he could. Just like Snoke most likely lied to Kylo when Kylo saw that her parents are junk traders in the Jaku desert. All this information comes from a master of the dark side and master manipulator and should not be trusted. Let me ask the question this way, If Kylo kills his mother can he be redeemed? We don't normally see sons who kill fathers redeemed.

There is one other outcome I thought of as I wrote this. now the title of the play and its history will be misleading, but Oedipus kills his father, also sleeps with his mother, we can skip that part. Once he realizes what he has done, he rips his eyes out and secludes himself. This is a possibility for Kylo as it ends the Skywalker story and finishes his arc.

 

yes.

it's a fundamental misunderstanding of what redemption means to say that any act should put any person beyond it.
it's the commission of these terrible acts that necessitates or must precipitate redemption in the first place.

let me ask you this question:

do Han and Leia want their son to die evil or, maybe even worse, realize his crimes and put his own eyes out and go into exile?
is that what any parent would really want for their child, especially if he is penitent?​

 

For what its worth, Jocasta, Oedipus mother and wife hangs herself and Oedipus gouges his eyes out and goes to live in exile. he actually in later literature becomes a more peaceful figure wandering with his daughter until his death. An ending like this gives both the conclusion of the skywalker family. Kylo is never seen again. it also allows for the possibility of later generations of Skywalkers as we don't really know what happened to Kylo. This sort of greek myth to me works better if Kylo and Rey are related to each other.

 

yes, i know the story of Oedipus, but that didn't really answer the question, though.

 

No, but there is one bit of truth the Illusion of Luke tells Leia, he is not here to save Kylo, he can't be saved. Leia agrees with this. It doesn't matter what Han and Leia want it matters what ends the story. To me what ends the story is either Kylo being killed ala shakespeare style, or oedipus style. In the latter as we have discussed Kylo realizes the error of his ways and in shame or having killed his father and possibly his mother he exiles himself. Or ala Shakespeare he tears the galaxy apart in an effort to become his grandfather only to realizes as Rey kills him and he possibly confronts the ghost of anakin he is wrong and he dies.

I have always thought, though I doubt JJ agrees with me, that the only one who can fix Kylo is Anakin.

 

no, actually Leia says "my son is gone" and Luke says "no one is ever really gone."
Luke doesn't say Ben can't be saved, he only says he's not there to do it.

and it absolutely does matter what Han and Leia want for their son. emotionally, at least.
a lot of people (and yes i am making a generalization here) are upset that the ST "disrespects" the OT heroes.
i find it ironic that many of these same people are calling for Ben's head on a plate. not all, obviously, but the irony is there.
what's more disrespectful to Han? having him killed on a bridge by his own son?
or having that same son, who he so desperately wanted to save, just die in the Dark (and therefore make his sacrifice for Ben pointless?)

the only person who can fix Ben is Ben.
he absolutely needs help and maybe Anakin can be that help--that voice he'll finally be able to listen to. but his fate needn't be so dire or dark or gloomy.
the last thing Ben needs is to spend the rest of his life dwelling on what's immutably past ~ that's what's driven to his madness in the first place.

 

the point of redemption is a 180 turn from what they have been.... I don't believe redemption is an impossibility for anyone, no matter how far they've gone. This is one of the reason i despised Luke in TLJ, because he has that same ideal .... I dislike the idea that Vader can be redeemed but not Kylo. Vader killed far more than Kylo has... Vader killed young children. almost choked out his wife and would have killed obi-wan.... I'd wager that Anakins heart was blacker than Ben's and he managed to be redeemed. You can't end the skywalker story that way... you'd outrage even more fans and viewers than were outraged by TLJ.

 

I don't think the sequel disrespects anyone. This argument is silly, and I don't care if I've offended feelings. People need to step out of dream land and come back to the light. Having seen empire in theaters and waited three years to see what happened to han did anyone care about my feelings when they told me Boba felt wasn't dead, no. Nobody cared. its a story and the largest problem is the audience wants to feel like they felt when they were ten. However, they aren't ten any more. Thats the problem. The last Jedi can't be judged until the last movie is finished. Also, that scene between kylo and luke is Epic, Epic, absolutely Epic.

I hope i made someone made

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 14, 2018 ---

its not just how many you kill, its who you kill. Sorry I love han. To me Han is the real hero and you can't redeem someone who murders their father

 

In your heart and mind he is irredeemable but it isn't you who will redeem him. Ben can be redeemed weather or not people are willing to see and forgive him. to the point of @FN-3263827 Luke said that he did not come to save Ben. Luke's goal was to save the Rebellion give them a chance fight another day. If Luke really wanted to end Ben he would have gone their in person. He even says no one is every really gone. And a kill is a kill it doesn't matter who it is. for some killing a family member might be easier than someone else. The point is this there was more blood on Anakin's hands than are on Ben's. Han's blood isn't more special than anyone else's just because he is Han. You are expressing an argument based on feelings as well. It is your feeling that Ben is irredeemable be cause he killed your favorite character.

Here is a definition of rememption
the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil.

"I Feel it again the pull to the Light" - Ben Solo TFA

"You have too much of your father's heart in you, young Solo." - Snoke TLJ

"And look at you, the deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced..." - Snke TLJ

They have been hinting and showing that his heart longs for the light but he is constantly choosing evil because of Snoke's influence over him. Now that Snoke is out of the picture who knows.

 

for the record, i don't either.

not sure why you think this conversation is silly, nor do i think anyone is offended, nor do i understand why you would want to make anyone mad.
hope that works out for you?

 

I wouldn't say that the ST is disrespecting the OT characters, but I am disappointed with Luke... And I know that many are.

 

it's a fair response. first time i watched TLJ, i was very disappointed in him too.
and the first time i read Bloodline i wanted to bury Leia under a brickstack.
Han's fine. he may have made mistakes, but he was in way over his head with this family. XD

but seriously: no one wants to see their heroes be weak or make bad choices.
the whole point of them being heroes is that they're supposed to be better than us!

but at the end of the day, maybe the more important message is that they aren't really better than us.
and that putting heroes on a pedestal isn't healthy for anyone.
we all have the capacity to make heroic choices.
we shouldn't ever think we weren't born for it.

this is why (back to the topic) Rey being the child of a couple of nobody drunks makes perfect poetic sense in the realm of this story.

 

Seems to me RJ simply decided it made more sense to give Luke his own condensed ‘hero’s journey’ in TLJ instead of relegating him to the mentor role. He has a character arc all his own that way. I’m not super thrilled with how it was handled, but I have immense respect for the effort itself.

Personally, it’s Rey that I find more lacking in that story. I wish her motivations had been fleshed out a bit better. I think I get the character herself. But, like Finn, I wish a touch more work had been put in there to connect those dots.

 

True but i there is a difference in displaying someones human characteristics and showing they are just like everyone else and choosing to write out of character actions just to show weakness. Im all for weakness and flaw in characters but let it be in character .... The weakness and flaw in Luke was his rash unthinking nature. However he would not have hid away like a little Vhlor (sorry for the crude language hahaha). i buy Luke momentarily pulling his lightsaber out and almost killing Ben to stop the evil but Luke's response to that would not have Ben to run away and that really is more what i'm talking about. The action is out of character. I also just want more story for Ben and Luke in EPIX. i want to find out what Pre-Kylo Ben was like. His character is interesting to me. I doubt that it was Luke that really created Kylo Ren. Ben had a vaderesk darkness that he was fighting. Snoke exploited that and may have even put that vision in Luke mind. Luke pulling his Lightsaber was like the straw that broke the camel's back. Ben had a rough relationship with mom and dad, believing they hated him and now even his uncle is turned on him. when you look at Ben from that perspective and the fact that he has only been Kylo Ren for a max of 6 years adds to the redemption idea.... like Rey, Ren wants a place to belong. Snoke gave him that so he made sacrifices like his father in Snokes name and in services to the dark side the only place he's belonged. When he found out that Snoke was using him to get to skywalker as Han said in TFA, he overthrew him and began search for new belonging. Now he belongs to the First Order as their precious supreme Leader. But in IX he can find the belonging he seeks with his family through Rey (His Cousin, Sister, or Lover).

"It's time to let old things die. Snoke... Skywalker. The Sith... the Jedi, the Rebels... let it all die. Rey. I want you to join me. We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy."

He knows she desires belonging as well so he hopes to find belonging in her. then he delivers his Lie

BEN: No, no you're still holding on! Let go! Do you want to know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known? You've just hidden it away. You know the truth. Say it. Say it.

REY: They were nobody.

BEN: They were filthy junk traders... who sold you off for drinking money. They're dead... in a poverished grave in the Jakku desert. You have no place in this story. You come from nothing you're nothing. But not to me. Join me. Please.

He wants so desperately to belong that he is even willing to prey on Rey insecurity (Weather she is or isn't a nobody this scene is brilliant from that perspective alone) so that she will feel as desperate as he and join him. Ben doesn't think his parents ever loved him and then was betrayed by his uncle and then the wise mentor that e thought cared about him. Han died for Ben to have a sense of belonging, but a belonging that was misplaced maybe.

 

I think Luke was handled beautifully in TLJ, and Hamill had the opportunity to offer a great performance in it. I can’t honestly see how anyone could be disappointed with Luke becoming a true master, a hero and a legend...

The OT characters are all experiencing their own redemption arcs in these movies, which I believe are possibly the most interesting trajectories a fictional secondary character could have. Han went through his in VII and Luke through his in viii. It will be interesting to see if Leia will have her own redemption arc too, or if she needs one.

Redemption is possible for everyone, but of course in a story it needs to be believable. For me Kylo surviving would be the most positive message the ST could offer. If redeemed he would have a shot to make amends, balance the force, become a father (I have a feeling that there is a baby in the horizon, I don’t know why). If unreedemed, his survival would give us hope of his redemption in the future.

 

all i can say is this.... for me Luke didn't work. it was beautiful and brilliant if it wasn't Luke.... but i personally didn't feel that this was Luke... that's how i felt. that doesn't mean it was that other people arent slowed to to like it... it was just one of the things that didnt work for me

 

Luke was one of the best things of TLJ for me and I'm not a big fan of TLJ. RJ developed Luke's character further in a realistic way.

 

unfortunately we couldn't have more different interpretations of what's going on with Luke or Ben.
and i think a lot of satisfaction or dissatisfaction with how things plays out is grounded in our interpretations.

i mean, we agree right up to the point of each of those characters' crisis moments and then wildly diverge ~ ha!

i totally get what you're saying about Luke hiding, but i guess i feel like he could never fight against Ben until he could figure out a way to do it without hurting him. and it isn't until he realizes that he can project across space that he does. which is brilliant and heroic and everything i would want from Luke as a Jedi. he made a mistake wanting to hurt (even kill) Ben for even just a fraction of a second. he wasn't going to make that mistake twice.

as for Ben: if he wanted to manipulate Rey about her parents, he could have told her what she wanted to hear and had her falling into his arms. but he didn't. he pushed her to admit the truth. not in a very nice way at all, either. in that moment he's feeling shoved into a corner and so he shoves her into a corner. they do it to each other. again: they are equal and when they figure out how to work together, there will be balance.

 

And that’s the main concrete you have to push aside your suspension-of-disbelief for in order to engage with the story. TFA set it up that our OT3, friends through thick and thin, each gave up and ran away when times got too tough for them. Is that entirely consistent with the characters we knew prior? No, not really. But that’s the premise we’ve been given.

They each became disillusioned along their respective paths the further they got away from their idealistic youths, and needed to be guided back there again. That, itself, is a fairly realistic concept. That does happen to people, even the best people. Their fire goes out, they don’t have any fight left, and they need a swift kick in the ass to get them going again.

That’s maybe not the most satisfying or thrilling development for a larger-than-life character, but it’s an apt and relevant one. It’s something you have to accept on good faith in regard to how it best suits the story rather than the character himself. For a lot of people, who have a deep attachment to the character though, that’s a bridge too far and I don’t blame any of them. You’re not wrong to feel the way you feel.

 

That fine I just dodn't feel the same way. Is it wrong for to have an opinion?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 15, 2018 ---

For Luke: I understand all of that I just didn't agree with the choice for his character. again I'm not saying that its wrong for other people like it, It's just what I thought.

For Ben: My suggestion was that his goal was to make her feel empty and without place so that she might feel he was the only place to belong. Both of our interpenetration may have grains of truth in them as well. That in itself is one of the brilliant and frustrating things about Star Wars. You as the viewer can really interpret a lot of things to mean a plethora of concepts and ideas. That's why we are having wonderful debate. But as you said sometimes we get a little too involved in our interpretations that we get frustrated with certain aspects that maybe didn't frustrate other fans.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 15, 2018 ---

I would argue that Leia never ran away. She asked Luke to help her with her son and his failure blew up in her face... she then pushed Han away. Han Was already a flighty person who might have left of his own accord anyways. We knew this about Han and him leaving her fell in character with Where had already been. We met Han Solo as someone who ran away from things. It was shown in the some of the books that he was feeling like a caged bird and that Leia was always working with the senate. There marriage was headed that way. And inn the end they still loved each other... I didn't think that anything Han or Leia did in TFA was out of character. from the moment I heard that Luke had vanished in the opening crawl I thought to myself. There must have been a very god reason for Luke to abandon everyone. The explanation we got in TLJ was not really satisfactory in my opinion. It didn't warrant Luke's disappearance. Even Mark Hamill didn't like Luke until Rian sat down with him and talked him off the ledge. But Mark Hamill pressed and and made Rian really think about why Luke was the way that he was.

Luke when we meet him is yes idealistic but by the time he faces Vader in ROTJ he is more realistic in views but still hopeful. He had hope for his father that he'd come back to the light side and momentarily lost his cool but regained it and did the right thing. In empire strikes back Luke runs off to face Vader too soon. He returns to Yoda to make it right and finish his training. Luke showed that it was in his character to make it right after he failed. In TLJ we see an aged broken Luke which is not the part I'm against. We see that he is wallowing in his failure instead of taking charge like he normally would. yes you're right people sometime lose there fire and need a kick in the pants to get going again. But I think that after Luke had failed his sister, best friends and nephew in that way he would have done everything in his power before giving up to save Ben and right his wrong. Luke and never let shame or guilt control his decisions. In fact those things helped him to learn. as Yoda said failure the greatest teacher is. Remember Luke is only 53 years old in the last Jedi same with Leia. They look way older but at 53 they would still have a fire particularly being the kind of people that fight for what they believe in.