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Were "fan expectations" the problem?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    What happens when a tiny minority of customers don't realize they're a tiny minority?

    Most people have liked the new saga films.

    And Solo? Disney apparently has crunched the numbers and the problem wasn't that fans didn't see the film. It's that general audiences didn't see the film





    One thing Marvel has done a good job of is making all their films matter. I'm not really interested in Captain Marvel since I know zero about the character, but I know she's important to the next Avengers film. Solo simply doesn't really matter. I never really understood Lucasfilm's movie release strategy, but it seems like they're learning from their mistakes.
     
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  2. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    You honestly don’t see the inherent contextual difference between your examples and what actually happens in TLJ? In those other situations the circumstances are expressed in terms of *life and death*.

    The arena predators in AOTC were set to ravage and devour our heroes had they not defended themselves. That stupid looking and sounding lizard monster OB was riding in ROTS was unfortunate collateral damage in an attempt on its rider’s life. The wampa Luke ‘disarmed’ in ESB was ready to chew his mangled mug right off. Han gladly rode his tauntaun to death if it meant saving his friend from being a Luke-sicle. Han dispassionately dispatched those mynocks as casually as a Greedo to keep them from damaging the Falcon and stranding them in the belly of some big f**k-off space worm. Hell, in ROTJ, the movie went out of it’s way to depict the Rancor’s death as a semi-tragedy deliberately showcasing it being mourned by its keeper.

    Those dopey-ass fathiers, on the other hand, were being made to suffer for no greater purpose beyond the passing amusement of an audience indifferent to their anguish. That’s not at all the same thing.

    To reiterate: I don’t buy into this premise of some premeditated messaging here. I see their inclusion as the product of a very old and lazy screen writing shortcut. Want your audience to instantly view your bad guy as a bad guy? Well, have him kick a puppy or smack a kid. Tada, bad guy. I don’t think Rian Johnson, or anyone else, was trying to convince anybody that beating animals and children = bad. Pretty sure they just assumed that should go without saying.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 17, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 17, 2019 ---
    Oops, sorry. Just read this. Like @Rayjefury, I honestly did feel this was in-keeping with the overall topic.
     
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  3. KalKenobi83

    KalKenobi83 Rebelscum

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    I personally like The Fathiers they may be no beast of Burden like the dewback but they shouldnt have been mistreated for Sport no Different from mistreating a real life horse Star Wars message all things deserve to live
     
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  4. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Yes that's what I have been saying for months. Star Wars lost the general audiences with the ridiculousness that was E8. Some people are still in denial about all this but I am glad you have come around.

    The general audience goes to a space fantasy movie to see heroes being heroic. The general audience doesn't want subverted expectations. E8 fractured the hard core fanbase but, perhaps more importantly to Disney, lost the casuals.
     
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  5. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    Solo originally was suppose to come out in December but Iger moved to May because they didn't want it to compete aginst Mary Poppings which ironically didn't perform that well either. It would be interesting to see how it would of done had they kept in in December. I guess Disney underestimated how popular IW and DP 2 were.

    It was the casuals that help the movie make the 1.3 billion dollars (which is still good by movie standards, not yours) and not the hardcore fan base. If anything, I see more casual confused at the hardcore fan base than anything. Majority of the casuals didn't even know about Solo due to the lack of marketing not to mention it was over shadowed by IW and Deadpool 2. Those movies are a lot more popular than people give credit too. I'm wiling to bet my bottom dollar that Solo probably would of done better in December since Mary Poppins didn't apparently didn't grab a lot of people's attention. As what Pablo said, it was just bad timing for Solo. Rogue One probably would of done bad if it came out then. it pains me to say this, but Marvel is the new SW due to Marvel filling the void that George Lucas failed to fill by proving minimal content outside of a tv show that the casuals didn't even watch.
     
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  6. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    I really think Iger wanted to know if they could start putting out Star Wars movies 6 months apart. Problem is that because of the production problems they weren't ready to spend the time, money and resources on marketing the film a year out like it needed. Like I have said many times Solo didnt even have a presence at Celebration 2017 and D23 2017. Then I think Iger just figure well it is a Star Wars movie, it doesnt need the marketing. Never felt the Mary Poppins vs Solo was a real issue. Honestly they dont compete against each other. Are they having issues with Frozen 2 vs Ep9 in November and December?
     
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  7. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    So this thread has gotten super off topic from what I was originally going for.

    Based on my OP, there is one big question that needs answered.

    Are any fans actually mad because their specific theories didn't get confirmed? Or are the angry fans angry because their questions were answered with "non-answers."

    Please note the distinction. It's the difference between a fan saying "I'm mad because Snoke is not Mace Windu" and a fan saying "I'm mad because TLJ tells us that Snoke doesn't matter."

    Star Wars pundits have been talking as if mass waves of fans fall into that first category. As if fans latched onto specific theories and couldn't handle being wrong. In my experience, that's not the case. I think that the angry portion of the fanbase mostly falls into the second category -- they feel that TLJ answered the questions of TFA in a way that says "the questions don't matter."
     
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  8. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    80% of people who saw the movie liked it so no, TLJ didn't lose the general audience. Last May audiences had many good choices for entertainment and they chose better reviewed films to watch.

    K... back on topic.
     
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  9. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    I also believe there weren't that many questions to be answered. I think many say the questions that existed werent answered because they didnt like the answers. It isnt "the questions don't matter" it is the "answers did matter, but they didnt like them.".
     
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  10. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    I don't know that's the exact reason but there has to be a reason why they moved Solo from December to May. It's possible that Solo would of lowered the numbers of Mary Poppins and that they was banking the Memorial weekend to help maximize Solo's numbers. That's what I gathered over the months before Solo coming out. I wish we could see how Solo would of performed in December but it's pretty much a guessing game at that point.
     
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  11. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    I dont recall them moving from December to May. I do recall when the change in directors was made many were surprised they didnt move from May to December. I find countless stories speculating the move to December from May and stories even earlier well before the production issues about Disney giving up December and releasing Solo in May. Also story about how EP9 was going to be May 2019 before JJ asked to move it back to December before production began.
     
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  12. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    I stand corrected. I was mis-remembering. People were speculating why they didn't move it from May to December.
     
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  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    @DailyPlunge, @Wolfpack, all: this is not the thread for a discussion about the legitimacy of who or how many liked TLJ.

    I've already asked people to get back on topic once. either address the original post or move on please.
     
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  14. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Here we go again with Kylo torturing Rey again. Rey was the one who ended up getting the better of Ren when she turned the mind probe back on him.

    Kylo’s whole arc in TFA was based on the fact that light was still pulling on him. Rey saw this a felt there was still good in him. She went to Ren in TLJ because she thought she could bring him back to the light.

    I don’t think those in the section of the fan base that was dissatisfied felt the TFA questions were answered in a way the made them seem like “the questions don’t matter” but instead just didn’t like the outcome of the answers given.
     
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  15. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    The only way that the fans would be a part of the problem is that Disney under expected the fans to fall in line with their vision. Whoever greenlit the ST did not, in my opinion, really take fully into account the entirety of the fandom
     
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  16. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    So because she was able to free herself that makes it okay. That's like saying I didn't die the first time I jumped out of a plane without a parachute, so it shouldn't be a problem if I do it again. No one using a 1/4 ounce of their brain cells would have done what Rey did. Just because I defeated the devil the first time. Doesn't mean I want to put myself in a position where I have to do it again. Normal people don't do what Rey did. Normal people avoid situations the one Rey placed herself in, and on top of that. When did Kylo apologize or show remorse to Rey for what he did to her and Finn? Rey went to Kylo anyway. Instead of showing concern for those he killed and tortured. Such as herself. She is more concerned about the torturer.
     
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  17. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    This is a SciFi/Fantasy story not normal life. So to say that normal people wouldn’t do this, or normal people wouldn’t do that does not work. Going back to the OT you could say that a normal person wouldn’t go back try and change their father who happens to be a mass murdering super villain who cut off their hand. A normal person wouldn’t try to save their evil father who possibly just sentenced his friend to death. Luke went to Vader anyway. He did not show any concern for all the people and Jedi Vader killed. He didn’t show concern that Vader froze Han in carbonate and gave him to Jabba. He didn’t show concern for his sister you was physically tortured by Vader. He didn’t care that he lost a hand to Vader. When did Vader show any remorse? Actually not until the very end. Luke went to save him before he showed any remorse. We still have another whole movie for Kylo to show remorse.

    Luke felt there was still good in Vader. That is why he went back and tried to save him. Rey and Kylo are not much different. Rey felt there was good still in Kylo. She thought she could bring that good out of Kylo just like Luke did Vader. As I stated in my previous post, Kylo’s entire arc in TFA was him fighting against the light (aka good) that was still inside of him. JJ all but spelled it out that it was there. Therefore, In the scope of the story it makes sense Rey would try to bring Ben back to the light.
     
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  18. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Regarding the use of social media- I agree that in many cases, LFL employees probably haven't acted in the most professional of all possible capacities.

    But man, I get it. It's all too tempting (and easy) to dunk on these guys. And if people want to slander LFL's work, I guess it's only fair they're open to a clapback.
     
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  19. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    So your excuse is fantasy, and she felt there was good in Kylo. Did Kylo help destroy SKB? Did Kylo get the map to the Resistance? What good did Kylo do in order for Rey to believe that? Oh, I get it. The force. Now I understand the term check your brain at the door.

    Now lets use some common sense. A normal person would try to save their father, because that is their father. Blood is thicker than water, and anyone can relate to that. Including an animal. What no one can relate to is a character get tortured by her torturer, watch him kill his father, and almost kill her best friend, and still believe their is good in that person by using the force as the argument. I can see why you say this is fantasy, because Rey would have to be one of the dumbest lead characters ever created if you apply logic to her story. Why did Rey go to Kylo? A force connection. Rian knew he couldn't apply common sense to make his excuse for Rey going to Kylo, because it makes no sense.

    However, a funny thing happened along the way with this idea Rey had about bringing back Kylo. It failed, and you know why? BECAUSE SHE HAS NO CONNECTION TO HIM. Kylo has no reason to give a damn about Rey, and it showed. Luke had a reason the audience could understand, because despite the force. Their bond was family.
     
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  20. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Im sorry it makes just as much sense as Luke going to save his father who was guilty of allowing his sisters step mother and father to be slaughtered along with all of the other people on her home planet. It wasnt the Force. Rey believe she feels the good/light inside of Kylo and that the Resistance really needs to turn the tides. She had more contact and discovery with Kylo then Luke ever had with Vader. At first when the force skypes started she was mortified by him and she grew more sympathy towards Kylo.
     
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