What do you think Snoke's role was in this trilogy?

How is it apples to oranges?
You can't just say it doesn't count and it magically doesn't count.

You are applying outside logic to the inside logic of the films. You are using your own biases, wants and desires to judge what is on screen instead of just evaluating what is actually being shown. It's fine saying you wanted more from Snoke but stop trying to act like it's sooo different from the Emperor. It isn't.

Knowing who Snoke is and where he comes from changes nothing in the story other than give you a wookiepedia entry.

 

I'd bet that we'll get a Snoke origins story in the interim between TROS and the next film, as well as a few more books on the rise of the FO, but they can't do that until the final installment of the saga is out. Right now it is looking like the rise of the FO was set up by Palpatine, and there was actually quite a bit of that alluded to in the aftermath series.

After reading that I "knew" that the Emperor had put everything into motion, I just didn't expect to see him back on screen as anything other than a hologram. Disney has shown that they are very willing to engage in world and character building, but only after there is no possibility of anything being a spoiler.

 

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 18, 2019, Original Post Date: Jul 18, 2019 ---

It's different because these films don't exist in a vacuum. They are part of a saga.

We all knew who the Emporer was in the OT. A dictator who controlled the galaxy with an Iron fist. We've known plenty of those in human history so it's an easy assumption to make, especially with all of the context provided by the writing on A New Hope. We knew Vader was his force powerful enforcer. The face of his evil Empire that everyone feared.

When ROTJ ended, the Empire was defeated along with Palpatine and Vader. We all assumed there would be peace.

Fast forward 30 years later and we are presented with Empire 2.0, Emporer 2.0, and a conflicted Kylo as Vader 2.0. As viewers of this saga, we are left scratching our heads as to how the victory at Endor led to some powerful force user mastermind named Snoke came to power and seduced Kylo and former a new Empire. NOT ONE HINT AT WHY OR HOW.

 

Leave fans of Darth Hungry-Mungry out of this. /s




For those that don't know: https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/hungry-mungry/

 

The scene in TFA where Leia tells Han that it was Snokes fault on influencing Kylo was a prime opportunity to give a small background about Snoke. We're not asking for a whole monologue of Snoke's history, just some context on how he became in power within the 30 years. One or two more sentences about Snoke would of suffice. One thing I love about the PT is the world/story building which the ST really lacks and is one of the reasons why I put TFA below TLJ. TFA should of gave us a lot more exposition to the world of the ST but it didn't.

 

Yes, I would have loved to have learned more about Snoke in either Episodes VII or VIII, but I also think that the absence of the explanation is a valuable component of the Star Wars experience. To be honest, at no point in watching a Star Wars film was I more confused than when I first watched Episode IV (the fact that I was six years old probably had something to do with it). Nevertheless, the original was filled with mysteries that weren't explained - who was this emperor that was mentioned? Was Darth Vader a human or machine? What were the spice mines of Kessel? (I could go on forever...)

I think Episode VII intentionally withheld exposition for a number of reasons. One being to mimic the lack of exposition in Episode IV. I also think Abrams and the creative team were sensitive to some of the criticism leveled at the prequels that thought they had too much exposition (like the explanation of Midichlorians). Another reason was to leave the audience with the emotional experience of wanting more. I also think that Lucasfilm and Disney wanted to allow themselves some flexibility to pivot along the three movie arc without having to commit to any plot point that they didn't have to. Lastly, I think Episodes VII and VIII intentionally withheld exposition to make the ultimate emotional payoff in IX as epic as possible. Whether Abrams will pull that off, we'll have to see.

Ultimately, I think the fact that audiences are now so hungry for insight into Snoke and the events of the years between VI and VII is a good thing. I'm hoping that come December we will all be very satisfied with with the overall experience of the sequel trilogy, but it is hard being patient (despite all I've learned from Masters Kenobi and Yoda).

 

I'm sure Luke knows how and when Snoke "turned his heart". Rian could have addressed it too. Except Luke spent more time whining about the Jedi rather than being interested in the current threat to the freedom of the galaxy. That's another reason people aren't happy with TLJ.

The bottom line is Snoke's appearance and death with little knowledge of who or what he is also effects Kylo. If we had a deeper understanding of his character, it would give us a deeper understanding of Kylo's character.

 

They do exist in a vacuum. They are a slice of time at a given moment of a given time.
If people managed to handle the Emperor in 1983, you can handle Snoke now.
We know who Snoke is. A manipulative force user who is running the First Order.

We know two things:
1. The First Order isn't seen as a real threat by the new government. Otherwise a Resistance wouldn't be needed.
2. They don't control the whole galaxy or else there wouldn't be a new Republic. They are presented as a start up.

I actually agree they could have set the political stage a little bit better but not to explain Snoke. It's superfluous to explain him now. That's not this story.

Key words here though, 30 years later. 30 years is a hell of a long time for a group like the First Order to form.
There's a huge gap that needs filled, but the story being told is one between Kylo Ren and Rey. Much like the OT, the political drama is in the background.
It's cool if it doesn't work for you but it's really not a flaw in the story, it's just not what you wanted.

 

I get everything you're saying. But you are kind of making excuses and using the previous films to make your argument. The issue is it didn't have to be this way.

Are you saying that if we knew more about how Snoke seduced Kylo, how the First Order formed, where Snoke came from, that the story would be WORSE? That it would take away from the story?

In no way did we have to skip everything that happened over the last 30 years just to get to this "slice of time" where everything is basically back to Rogue One era Galactic Empire. You could quite literally watch the Star Wars Rebels animation stories pre-TFA and they would work just as well as they work for being pre-ANH (just switch out Kylo for Vader, Snoke for Palpatine, Tarkin for Hux, etc).

This trilogy is practically the same story with new actors, except the Emporer was a mysterious shadow until the climax of the trilogy. Snoke just died mid-way through the 2nd film, which means he needed more exposition to make his death feel like it meant something.

 

Yeah he could of but it wasn't his job. It wasn't his job give us the context of the state of a galaxy. It was his job to explain why Luke was on the run and he gave us the reason. Whether or not you accept it, is a whole another discussion. I personally bought it, if you didn't than that's okay too. Its like having LOTR The Two Towers explain the history of the ring rather than telling us in the first movie Fellowship of the Ring. I also like how Luke acknowledged the faults of previous PT era of Jedi and that he couldn't live up to the hype of his name. People trusted the Jedi to bring the balance and stability to the galaxy (they were the protectors of peace btw) but Palps played them like a fiddle. If someone like Yoda who was powerful and wise allowed the Empire to form, what makes you think Luke would of prevented the First Order from rising? Luke complaining (which you call it) is really the only exposition we gotten out of the ST so far.

 

Yeah I have agree on one level but disagree on another. You are right Kylo might just be a stooge or never realize his vision. But his flailing and tempertantrums trying to reach his goal are part of his danger. They are part of his threat. Trying to prove his father wrong he might cut his master in half and then now rule the galaxy with no idea what to do next. That doesn't change that he killed his master. Now their might be a Palpatine resurgence or some new threat but so far he was the villain who broke all our ROTJ happy endings and now reigns supreme in the galaxy.

 

I’m personally more interested in how Kylo can be redeemed than in worrying how he got bad. Mind you, we might get one thing with the other, so we might be all happy in the end.

And the threat to the galaxy is the dark side, as it always has been. The big challenge now is how to eradicate it.

 

I don't think he's going to be redeemed in the classical sense (as in Vader or some Legends characters). I mean, TLJ kinda went out of its way to show that Kylo wasn't interested in "redemption" at all and rejected the idea of Sith and Jedi (or dark and light from a certain point of view). I think he's going to become a sort of "anti-hero" throughout TROS. My guess is that he won't die in the end, but will go off on his own in either self-imposed exile or accept outright banishment from the heroes, after helping them ultimately defeat whatever/whoever the big bad really ends up being; or maybe he does die but that's how he goes out.

 

Disney owns Star Wars. There will be no eradicating the Dark Side.

 

If making movies for gain was the only damage capitalist corporations made to the world...

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Jul 21, 2019 ---

That seems also interesting. I wouldn’t mind that either.

 

A few thoughts on Snoke’s role.

Snoke as a pawn of Palpatine- this could work easily. Palpatine in whatever form he was in after his “death” or plans he set in motion in the event of his death could easily gotten Snoke a powerful dark side user to carry out plans to basically rebuild the Empire. It’s logical and it fits what we have in canon

Snoke as a being possessed by the dark side essence of Palpatine- this works too. Snoke becomes Palpatine in another form. For this to work, however, Palpatine would have had to let Kylo kill Snoke and then possessed someone new as I don’t see Palpatine being tricked so easily by Kylo

Snoke as a Palpatine clone- this does not work at all. The physical attributes of Snoke don’t match up. The physical disfigurement can easily be explained but adding a foot or more in height can not.

 

They even have their own Wookieepedia page!

 

As much as this is possible and probable, it is hardly acceptable for a movie script. You can't say to the audience "you know what, we didn't have the time to develop this guy, so go grab 5 comic books, 3 novels and watch 2 animation series to know who this guy really is"....

You will, I will, but most people won't...

 

You can't eradicate the dark side. Your challenge will be to accept that and learn to handle it.

 

Similarly, most people doesn't need to know more as Snoke is, like the vast majority of all SW characters, there only to serve other arcs and requires no special backstory to side track the real events in the films. Most people need no backstory for Snoke; You might, I might, but most people don't.