Why is backstory so important?

I don't know to what degree (if any) this applies to the ST but I know a lot of artists deliberately leave ambiguity as space for other's minds to occupy.
Audiences become co-creators when they choose to invest imagination and stories become like a conversation.
Besides, who doesn't like to be teased with a bit of mystery?

 

I think the defenders of TLJ has gotten a lot of things backwards regarding this (like always).

You are right on one thing – Backstory is not necessary in order to make interesting characters or interesting movies. But that’s not the point here. People don’t dislike the ST’s handling of Snoke because he lacks backstory per se, people dislike the ST’s handling of Snoke because his lack of backstory f**ks up the timeline and lore (also he is a terribly written character but that’s not the topic at hand here).

Defenders of TLJ always take the Emperor in the OT as a comparison, and to Snoke’s defense they will say things like “If the OT was released today, the same butthurt fans would complain about the lack of backstory to the Emperor”. Nope, that would never have happened. You know why? Because when the OT was released, there was nothing that had come before it. There was no need for an explanation how the Emperor came to power because there was NO ESTABLISHED LORE about it. By contrast, when The Force Awakens was released, it was standing on the shoulders of SIX MOVIES with established history and lore. The ST isn’t a reboot, it’s supposed to be the offical sequel to the episodic movies. But it doesn’t feel like that.

If you look at the established lore and history, Snoke is essentially a character that shouldn't exist in this timeline. So in order for him to fit in, you'd have to change the lore - which is TOTALLY OKAY. Problem is, they haven't changed the lore! They are simply expecting us fans to watch their movies with a shut-off brain.

 

exactly this. people say "lazy writing". i think: "lazy engagement".
there's nothing wrong with wanting passive entertainment.
but don't blame the writers for asking you to show up in a series that has always asked you to show up.

 

Suppose that the OT was released today, with the PT being released already. We find out that the Emperor doesn't exist anymore and there's another evil guy called the Force King who rules the galaxy with his evil Force Kingdom. No explanation whatsoever what happened to the Emperor or the Empire after ROTS, but its OK because the Force Kingdom uses the same clone troopers we saw in The Clone Wars, and they look cool and that's what matters the most. Also the Force King is basically like the Emperor so it doesn't matter, as long as there's an evil guy the good guys can fight against, right? Then the Force King is killed by Luke in the second installment of this OT, without any explanation of how he came to power or what happened to the Emperor. Did the Force King kill the Emperor and take his place after ROTS? Was he hiding during the Clone Wars? Nobody knows...

That's the equivalent of how Snoke and the First Order was handled in the ST.

 

Except nobody knew who The Emperor was in the OT (or any of the characters backstory for that matter). All you needed to know that he was the Master to Vader and he was a bad guy. It took 30 some odd years to know their backstory. George Lucas deserves some blame for the no backstory thing as well. It's also about relevant backstory. Knowing what Snoke did on a Sunday isn't compelling. The whole point of Luke and Kylo's point of view scenes was for their confrontation on Crait to make sense.

 

@Andrew Waples : Did you read the part I bolded (is that even a thing? ) of @Boss Vos post?

IF TFA/TLJ were the first films made in the series it really wouldn't matter mate, and I'd be in 100% agreement with you. However, this is the SEQUEL trilogy to two previous trilogies. It is supposed to be one big story. Even if you don't agree, can you understand that point? Because it is a very valid point my friend.

 

I wasn't even talking to. Boss Vos made no indication that he was talking to you...

 

I can totally understand wanting to know more about Snoke and where he was during the past events. I get it. Being a die hard fan, I would like to know more about Snoke but I don't feel it was relevant to this story and not knowing doesn't take me out of it. I think along with other things that has happened in the past 30 years since ROTJ including Snoke, we will learn more about in other media (books, tv, etc). Just as the Emperor in the OT, his story isn't relevant to the main characters story. Just like the Emperor, he isn't the main protagonist. IMO, the reason we didn't learn much about the Emperor in the OT isn't because nothing (lore) came before it, it was because his story wasn't relevant or needed to move the main story ahead for the main characters. His purpose was to help add to Vader's story. Just as then, Snoke isn't the main protagonist and his back story isn't relevant to main characters story. Its not needed. Just my opinion.

 

I've stated this before, but these trilogies are designed to be watched independently. Like you said, Snoke isn't the center of this story so his back story doesn't really matter just like Palpatine's story didn't matter in Return of the Jedi.

 

Seconded. It's Rey/Ren's story.
It's not about Snoke. He's just there.

 

At this point, we're wasting our time replying, and so are the "lovers".

We can give them countless examples on how it was done differently and "right" in the OT in comparison to the ST, but just like some of us who hate everything, some of them will love everything.

I mean, Luke didn't come back from rescuing the Princess to just jump into an x-wing and blow up the DS. Nope, GL had the good guys have a meeting and explain things.

Han didn't just get frozen in carbonite. Nope, Lando and Vader had a discussion that explained (thanks to 3P0) the dangers and Han's status after the ordeal. Bobba Fett chimed in too as a prelude to RotJ.

GL knew that fans didn't have to know how it worked, whether it be a chain reaction or being frozen. No, but he did know fans would require to know what effect and what purpose those things played. RJ glibly skips over this, and maybe some SW fans can forgive that because they've grown accustomed to this in the universe, they might even find the explanations boring or unnecessary, but some fans enjoy the explanation. It shows an attention to detail and not outright ignoring the science in science fantasy/fiction. The quick single lines or phrases is distinctly SW in their execution. It adds to the appeal.

I wonder, if its whether fans want some technical explanation with all the action and moral dilemmas, force powers and new tech or aliens, or if you find that technical jargon as just filler and want to skip over it to get to the "good stuff" that partially separates the fans.. It doesn't need to be Star Trek, but an attempt at a scientific explanation, because it takes place in space. We don't need the board room discussion around a table by the brains of the operation, but we do need their final analysis.

Often both sides are accused of trying to convince the other side to their way of thinking. I think mostly, we want put the other side in a box. We like boxes, and we need boxes, they make us feel safe. "I'm right because they're stupid and don't understand science." or "I'm right because they don't get that SW isn't about sicence, but about morality, good vs evil, yin yang, ect...". At the core, at least for some, its about pecking order.

Personally, I think there's room in SW for all of it. Maybe playing to the pseudo science isn't RJ strength, or maybe he just thought it a waste like many other fans do (maybe he even felt he was listening to the fans, at least those he talked to). I think GL set a precedent in the OT, and even he failed to meet it in the PT on some levels (though it had issues beyond that), there is now a clear measuring stick. In essence, RJ failed at what GL failed at in the PT, catering to all the fans simultaneously. GL managed it in the OT, but I don't know if we'll ever get another director who enjoys SW on all those facets.

If GL wanted to simply tell a fantasy story, he would have set it in a fantasy world. Instead, he set it in space. That's what sets SW apart from LotR or
WoW or countless other products. With space, he created new possibilities, he set expectations (beyond what had already been done), by combining a trek or buck rogers element to dungeons and dragons and king Arthur, which he met and now some fans want or need met in all future installments. I think the debate is more about how much detail we want to the universe and on how many topics.

I don't think this would solve all the issues with TLJ, but I think three's a fairly large portion of the haters that are stuck on the pseudo science aspect that is lacking in the ST. Who's to say that people can't enjoy that aspect of SW, or others feel they have some right to preach that that isn't what SW is about? I think there are multiple topics that all have multiple layers and the precedent is the OT, at least for some(for others it's the PT, which serves to complicate matters even more). It's about as tricky as an alchemist trying to figure out how to turn lead into gold, and it's almost just as possible. Including all the topic, with sufficient layers to each, is neigh impossible.

 

This is a public forum. I was polite and friendly to you, it would be nice for you to do the same.

So now the episodes are to be viewed separately? So what is the point of the episode numbers? I give up.

Peace out peoples.

 

You accused me of not reading something... and that's being "polite and friendly"? I still don't know what part you're talking about that you bolded.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 17, 2018 ---

If The Emperor mattered, he would have put more screen time then just one mention and one scene before Return.

 

There you go again. I "asked" if you had read the part of the post that I quoted that I then bolded. I accused you of nothing. And yes, my post was very friendly.

 

i'll reply to this bit.. as it's almost reasonable, but throwing 'Defenders of TLJ' around will do nothing but antagonize people. there is absolutely no need for it whatsoever - it's rude and it's divisive. there is enough of that in the world already.
some people will read your post and think that you are saying that if they like the ST.. you are calling them stupid and that they watch it with a shut-off brain. I'm sure you aren't saying that.. but the forum is filled with negativity and people taking swipes at each other over their opinion of a couple of movies.

you're unhappy with the new movies? that's cool, but we can all discuss it all openly if we keep away from the personal comments.

same goes for anyone saying 'haters of TLJ' - it's divisive and needs to stop. we all have our own passionate and personal opinions of every single strand of Star Wars.. period. sitting in our own 'TLJ corners' throwing stones at each other is bloody ridiculous.

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why shouldn't Snoke exist in this timeline? we're only two thirds into this trilogy and we may learn all sorts of things about Snoke, Luke etc etc in episode 9 (or even beyond). We've potentially got Thrawn, Ezra and god knows who else darting about in the Galaxy getting up to all kinds of stuff. it's a big ol Galaxy and the force is everywhere.. surrounding every living thing. If there's nothing else going on out there... what on earth are RJ and the GOT guys gonna make movies about?

Snoke may be dead (maybe) but that doesn't mean that his story has finished or that the SW story tellers don't have plans to tell us why such a powerful (and ancient apparently) force user stayed in the shadows until recently.. but i suspect his emergence was because of the death of Sheev.

'willing suspension of disbelief' isn't a terrible thing imo.

I have had a conversation with a friend here just this week where i admitted that there is a rather important scene in TLJ that i don't understand. A scene that confuses me entirely.. i know something important is going on, but i don't get it. it's my favorite scene of the movie.. every time i watch it my brain is going 'Ooo Ooo wth?'. my favorite scene.. and i don't understand what's happening. I suspect (depending on what happens from here on) that it will be a scene we will discuss for decades. It's the beauty of Star Wars to me that i can get excited about scenes that i don't understand and haven't been explained to me.

maybe that's just me?

 

Nope. I said the trilogies are designed to be stand alone. Introducing new fans by making them watch 6 films first isn't wise. Which is why this trilogy can be watched without watching the previous six films. It's also why it doesn't make sense to give side characters expansive back stories. If this was a 10 episode TV series yeah, we'd get an episode explaining what Snoke eats for breakfast.

I wonder if modern TV is what is causing all this demand for unnecessary back story.

 

Well... I don't know about that. It can be, but Luke's story really needs to be watched from 4-6, and Han and Leia's relationship.

 

Those things of course are not 'backstory'. Those things are necessary exposition so that we understand what is happening right now in the moment. We're potentially left with a plot hole without them.

There is necessary exposition and unnecessary exposition. Knowing that Han could die getting frozen in carbonite is necessary exposition which then creates a sense of peril in the moment. Knowing that he has in fact survived is necessary for us to know so that it makes sense to us that they are going to rescue him. It creates the cliffhanger and sets up the first act of the sequel. It adds to - indeed it creates - the drama of the film at that point.

Knowing more about Snoke's backstory wouldn't do that - it's unnecessary exposition - and would just conclude with us knowing that he's a powerful sith-type being who has taken on an apprentice in Kylo Ren and has risen to lead the First Order. But we know that already, because it's clearly evident.

So if they revealed Snoke is the result of cloning using the preserved-in-amber genes of Darth Tenebrous spliced with Jorus C'baoth and brought to life by a spell uttered by the Witches of Dathomir, it doesn't mean anything to the current story, and possibly just alienates the wider audience.

Knowing how, when or where Snoke came to be makes no difference to the story that is unfolding. It's unnecessary exposition.

I don't think it's right to use the word 'fans' here. GL knew that the movie audience had to know what was happening and what the stakes are in that moment.

Lucas isn't just opting to explain something to fans who like that sort of stuff, he's crafting important parts of the storytelling for everyone. The scene explaining that they found a weakness in the Death Star is necessary to our understanding of why they're doing what they are doing and what the stakes are. It sets up the purpose and goal and style of the rebel attack and what failure could mean. If those things are not explained, then we're potentially left with a plot hole.

Knowing Snoke's backstory on the other-hand does none of those things. Or knowing how Maz got hold of Luke's old lightsaber doesn't tell us anything more about the story currently being told.

'Some fans' sure, but because some fans obsess over every detail, I don't believe it means they should be pandered to - otherwise you can end up with a clunky and utterly boring movie. If you pander to a minority who enjoy those unnecessary or boring explanations, then the majority are possibly just going to be bored - and ultimately they are the audience that matter.

 

Between the current way we consume TV (binge on Netflix, shows like GoT where everything is important/has a story) along with something like the MCU where every character gets a movie, it creates an "unknown" and we aren't used to that right now

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 17, 2018 ---

Yep
If someone had never seen Star Wars and you show them TFA, you end up knowing as much about Luke as you do Snoke.
Then in TLJ you see Luke gets an arc and Snoke gets flayed. That tells you everything they need to know about Snoke for this story.

 

Backstory is important inasmuch as it serves the main story.

In A New Hope, we don't need all the backstory for the Empire. We understand "oppressive regime=bad" and that's all we need for that story. We don't need to know where they came from or what they want. We already know what oppressive regimes are like. We know they want power and control.

But in the sequel trilogy I would argue, we did need some backstory for Snoke. We don't need the 30-minute-mini-novel that the TLJ-remake clowns want. But we needed something, even a sentence of backstory. Because it's not chapter 1. It's chapter 7. And you don't just introduce a new character in the middle of an existing story with no explanation whatsoever. Not to mention, we can't rely on the existing "oppressive regime" trope to explain Snoke. He's not an emperor. We don't really know what he wants or why the First Order is doing what it's doing.