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A common misconception about Darth Bane and the Sith going "extinct"

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Sidious, Sep 29, 2018.

  1. Darth Sidious

    Darth Sidious Rebel Official

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    What we know:

    - from Ki-Ad Mundi that the Sith went "extinct" 1000 years before the movies

    - At some point, all the Sith killed each off except for Darth Bane, who then created the Rule of Two (from statements from Lucas and from TCW)

    What's never stated in the movies or in TCW is when Darth Bane lived. The Legends EU went with the idea that all the Sith but Bane killing each other off and the "extinction" referenced by Ki-Ad Mundi were the same event. However, for all we know from the movies and TCW, Darth Bane created the Rule of Two 8000 years before the movies, and the "extinction" that Ki-Adi referenced happened thousands of years later.
     
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  2. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    I mean it’s not like all of the sixth were killed off immediately...it was probably like Order 66 back then that Darth Bane had ordered and it just took a long time
     
  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    It was only because Darth Seven eight Nine
     
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  4. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    The following information was posted on StarWars.com in 2006:

    It is possible that in Disney Star Wars, the reformation of Darth Bane and the mass extinction of the Sith were separate - but at least in Lucas Star Wars, the reformation was indeed a direct result of the overthrow.
     
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  5. TheSenate

    TheSenate Rebel Trooper

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    I would just take what it says in Legends (I think there's something about it in the Darth Bane novels) and apply it to canon. That's the most likely option.
     
  6. Sir Puke

    Sir Puke Rebelscum

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    I'm kinda hoping that this is what Rian Johnson's new trilogy will be about. At least in that time frame.
     
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  7. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Is there any canon source for this?

    "The Sith killed each other, victims of their own greed. But from the ashes of destruction, I was the last survivor."
    Darth Bane's specter in CW 'Sacrifice' Episode

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Bane
     
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  8. Darth Sidious

    Darth Sidious Rebel Official

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    My point is that we don't know one way or the other.
     
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  9. Trevor

    Trevor Protector of the Jedi
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    Yes, it was on the very last televised episode of TCW called "Sacrifice"...and is canon.
     
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  10. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    @Darth Sidiuos, @Trevor: Gentlemen, maybe I did not make myself clear enough.

    I was asking if there’s a canon source regarding this specific statement:

    …for all we know from the movies and TCW, Darth Bane created the Rule of Two 8000 years before the movies, and the "extinction" that Ki-Adi referenced happened thousands of years later.

    Were In the movies and animated shows, it is mentioned that Darth Bane was a Sith Lord that had lived/ruled 8000 years ago?

    Looking at the canon sources I now:

    Ki Adi Mundi:
    ”Impossible, the Sith have been extinct for a millennium.“


    Spectre of Darth Bane:
    ”The Sith killed each other, victims of their own greed. But from the ashes of destruction, I was the last survivor. I chose to pass my knowledge onto only one, I created a legacy so resilient, that now you come before me. Have you come to be my apprentice? You must kill me to gain my place.”

    So either a) the Jedi and the Old Republic were fighting only two Sith, a master and one apprentice, for 7000 years until both were extinct a millennia before the events of TPM, or, and what is more likely for me, b) Darth Banes Legacy started a mere 1000 years ago, not 8000.

    Although I have no access to the Lothal Calendar and the book “Star Wars Rebels: The Visual Guide”, were it is mentioned, allegedly the Sith empire and their war with the Jedi and the old republic were timed around 6000 years ago, which would also contradict option a).

    For whatever it's worth, see: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_galactic_history

    So what exactly IS the misconception this thread is all about?
     
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  11. Ridcully

    Ridcully Jedi General

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    Interesting, if all sith but Darth bane died and he went into hiding, making the Jedi belief they were no more, how does yoda know about the rule of two?
     
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  12. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Hmmmm…. That’s a good one @Ridcully!

    Maybe the Jedi Order found some pamphlets of him in one of the deserted Sith temples they invaded?
     
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  13. daRinze

    daRinze Rebel Official

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    So does Mace Windu, when they wonder, by the end of TPM, "who was killed, the Master or the Apprentice" : according to Mace's face when Yoda speaks, he seems absolutely neither surprised nor interrogative : I mean, at this moment, Mace perfectly knows what Yoda is speaking about.
     
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  14. Darth Sidious

    Darth Sidious Rebel Official

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    Exactly my point. If Darth Bane created the Rule of Two 8000 years ago, Yoda knowing about the Rule of Two would make sense.

    My point was that we don't know when the conflict that Darth Bane was "the last survivor" of happened, so it could have happened 8000 years before the movies. 25,000 years and 3000 years would also work. I think Ki-Adi Mundi was talking about an event that occurred long after Darth Bane's time, because if Mundi was talking about the events that Bane was "the last survivor" of, it wouldn't make sense for Yoda to know about the Rule of Two.

    We don't know how many Jedi-Sith wars there were. Yoda says that Moraband was "abandoned after many wars". Darth Bane was "the last survivor" of a war that occured long before the war that Ki-Adi Mundi was talking about.
     
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  15. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    I think they’re not keeping it vague for nothing. The sources I know speak of thousands of years, getting not more precise on that.

    But I guess the Jedi were able to decipher Sith texts. So they wouldn’t have to meet a Sith in person to get the knowledge about the Rule of Two. A mere written/carved info or a discovered Sith droid might be more than enough to attain this knowledge.

    So for me… Bane being last of the line before retreating from ruling openly and the Jedi to believe them extinct for 1000 years still sounds like the most logic variant.

    What does not make so much sense to me is having the rule of two created thousands of years before the Sith had gone into hiding, which means nobody of the Sith would adhere to that rule for this very long timespan during they ruled the galaxy amass.

    Or, the Sith Empire was ruled by just two Sith for thousands of years, which is also a variant that deems very unlikely to me.

    But nobody knows for sure, and hey, I would love to get some more canon information about all of this on the dark ages of the SW galaxy!
     
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  16. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    That is a really good question.

    One possibility is that Yoda actually doesn't know about the Rule of Two, and what he meant was, "Always (at least) two there are" - or in other words, "Sith come in pairs." It's possible that Yoda could know that they come in pairs, without knowing about the new limitation of having only one pair.
     
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  17. crossed

    crossed Clone

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    it is impossible for it to be 8000 years. obi one engaged the first sith to appear in 1000 years Darth maul. before that the sith were wiped out and thought to be extinct because of bane

    ps swtor references this with satele shan and darth malgus in there return trailer were satele shan and her master have the first jedi sith fight to happen in 300 years.



    in the book darth bane that takes 1000 years before the movies. darth bane believed that the sith were destined to fail because there were so many of them. so he tricked all the sith into participate in a ritual the thought bomb that was created by revan which he made it from a piece of vitiate nathema ritual. it consumed the souls of everyone on the planet into a sphere and engulfed the planet in fire


    ps the thought bomb was created by revan which he made it from a piece of vitiate nathema ritual.
     
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  18. ThisIsNoCave

    ThisIsNoCave Clone Trooper

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    There's certainly a lot of material about the Sith in both canon and legends material. At this point it seems that LFL is picking and choosing from the Legends material as it pertains to the history of the Sith. It was interesting to see the spirit of Darth Bane in THE CLONE WARS, and we did get a sense of some of that back story. Another interesting side note? George Lucas considered incorporating both Darth Bane and Darth Revan into the Mortis arc of TCW, but discussions between George and Filoni led to them agreeing that incorporating the two ancient Sith as spirits that consult with the Son might have conflicted with some of the broader concepts of the Force. Evidently there's some more information about it in some of the BTS material for the DVD/BluRay release of season 3 of TCW.

    If we combined information from both canon and Legends? We can come to the conclusion that the Rule of Two was established by Darth Bane following the Battle of Ruusan. Ki-Adi-Mundi's statement about the Sith being extinct for a millennia would lead you to think that the Jedi perceived the Sith had been wiped out at the conclusion of the battle and were unaware of the survival of Bane who would reshape the Sith in secret. The Darth Bane novels are interesting to read, but again... LEGENDS.
     
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  19. Crusifix

    Crusifix Rebel General

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    They did a horrible job tying this all together. From what Munde said, to Yoda stating "always two there are". To what Bane said to Yoda. It makes me almost think that Yoda had an assumption that the sith, through the rule of two were still in existence. Even his reaction to finding out about Maul, and Munde's statement about them being extinct did not seem to surprise Yoda in the least. In any case, the Rule of Two is limiting and an ignorant idea that was put in place by Lucas.
     
  20. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Clone

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    I like the idea that Yoda believed that the Sith always had, previously, worked in pairs and only pairs. Meaning that if there was one around, there was definitely another, but not a team (a third or fourth). Maybe he knew about old Sith practices such as this from books or holocrons or whatever from the time before the Sith went "extinct".
     
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