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OFFICIAL NEWS A Lasting Record Of TLJ's Financial Performance.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Pomojema, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Not sure the continuing point here... when its already made $1.8 billion after 24 days and will likely crack TFA's overall numbers and take it down, with a good chance of becoming the #2 movie of all-time and the best performing movie in a decade, behind only Avatar. There is a decent chance it has a 2x multiplier to TLJ. As in, it makes double TLJ.

    If you obsess over domestic multipliers without looking at the whole picture, you're doing it wrong. Domestic multiplier is a lot more important to say TLJ, given the Star Wars product is beloved domestically, and not worldwide. So it has to make its big numbers at home. The fact of the matter is... money is money.

    I would characterize it as IW was a lot more frontloaded in NA. Either way, both IW and BP will likely end up fairly close to each other domestically, and IW resonated on a worldwide basis in a way that BP, TLJ, and even TFA couldn't.

    Infinity War? You misunderstand. I think it'll beat everything but Avatar in the overall. I don't think it'll cross it domestically either. This isn't that type of movie.

    The Avengers next year which provides the emotional conclusion that will rip everyones heart out? That will break all records. This is largely the setup movie with a cliffhanger to build anticipation for the big conclusion. That this one is going so large is just gravy as it'll likely put next year in a position to break all records. This one is simply softening the ground. It did absolutely everything it had to do in the way that it needed to do it.

    $1.8 billion and counting. The struggle is real.

    Ya... apparently nobody told you its made $1.2 billion in foreign lands and counting. And I've been quite clear about NA. 1) Its a downer cliffhanger ending. 2) Its the summer. 3) Everything is priming the emotional conclusion to go large. So if you're expecting TFA numbers domestically.. just lol! Infinity War will just have to 'make due' with being the 2nd biggest film of all time. The horror.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2018, Original Post Date: May 22, 2018 ---
    Oh, I Do. I also remember it was quite different from TLJ hate. People didn't like some of the choices GL made(particularly Jar Jar), there was no argument that they were Saga films through and through and accepted as such.

    With TLJ, we had people petitioning for them to remove TLJ from the canon and start over. It was that bad.

    We're already down to DCU money being expected for a full freight SW film.

    My original point was that during The Dark Times(2005-2015), you still had stuff like The Clone Wars and Rebels along with video games. Disney also can't and won't let the IP go relatively dormant because they want to make money off movies/teevee/toys/tie-ins *now*, not 7-10 years from now.

    Their big hope being that JJ Abrams somehow rights the ship with 9, or the ST may be a metaphorical remake of The Titanic, with the 'unstoppable' IP being built in the first film, Captain Rainy hitting The Iceberg in the second, and slowly sinking into oblivion.

    I assure you sir, this IP is made of metal, it can and will sink!

    I would imagine it won't be too much longer after Solo until people start heading for the lifeboats.
     
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  2. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    You know, a quick Google search and there are petitions to remove the Prequels from canon so... why do you even want Star Wars to fail?
     
  3. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    I don't want Star Wars to fail. I want them to actually make good movies. But if stuff like TLJ is expected to be the new norm, fail it will. We'll take 'er out back and put 'er down like Old Yeller. Its the one thing Rainy will have gotten right. We'll destroy the past, kill it if we have to. I just don't think he meant the entire IP, but unintended consequences!

    Because, kids, that's one of the main lessons you should learn from all this. When you come in and try to annihilate existing ways in favor of your own short-sighted ego-driven ideas, the main thing you tend to accomplish is wrecking the product. Things worked the way they worked, for a reason.

    I remember the story of Brach's Candy. Its a tale told often about business. Brach's Candy was pretty well known in the 80's and successful. They got in a CEO that took a look at what they were doing and decided to kill all the underperforming candy that didn't sell well, in favor of that which did. This, in turn, led to none of the candy selling well because he didn't understand that a variety was needed to really provide a presence for Brach's in the store. Shortly thereafter, Brach's went under.

    The point being, any complex system... you get some young whippersnapper that thinks he can 'fix it' easy breezy and doesn't like what currently exists. The worst thing you can do is put those people in charge because they won't even know what they don't even know, and it'll mess up the entire system and cause cascading failures that have to constantly be addressed. George, at least, knew what he was doing with the prequels and kept them on the rails.

    Rainy, by trying to take Star Wars from a populistic product to an arteestic product, has basically gummed up the works and created one hell of a mess for Abrams to fix. It'll be some type of magic if Abrams is actually able to.

    And no, I won't be a fanboi and simply lie to myself and others about the state of the products. If they can fix it, great. If they can't... it won't be pretty and Star Wars will ultimately fail. The future is promised to nobody. If you don't make movies people want to see, you won't make movies. Marvel understands this inherently and that's why they get paid the big bucks. Lucasfilm? Not so much.
     
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  4. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    You know, you seem to be more like a Marvel "fanboi" then you like to admit... I have never once seen complain about Marvel, just Lucasfilm. You seriously think Lucasfilm doesn't get the "big bucks"?
     
  5. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    Actually the hate is EXACTLY the same as today as it was back then. The only difference which is back by physical proof is that social media didn't exist (as we know it), YouTube didn't exist and RT was just a start up and majority of people had 56k dial up along with people severely mad at Metallica for suing Napster and internet trolls were still in diapers. I'm pretty sure your equivalent of a fan back then had a hissy fit about Midichlorians and plenty of documented sources of people wanting George's head. I mean look at RLM (PT haters bible) and watch The People vs George Lucas (which was made well before Disney was even a thought) and slew of other documentaries that aired on tv that showed how people act. It's exactly the same, and the only difference is their platform was a lot smaller only limited to local friends and hangouts and or message boards.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2018, Original Post Date: May 22, 2018 ---
    That's the issue. You're not giving them anytime to "fix" their mistakes. 2 out of 3 Disney movies were universally pleased by fans and critics and TLJ being questionable one. You're basically giving them one shot and they didn't hit you're check list so their forever doomed. That's the problem we're having, there pretty much one and done with no chance of gaining your trust and even if they did make a movie that could, it's clearly you made up your mind that you'll never like Disney era SW. I personally think TLJ is an okay movie but it's going to take more than that to break me away from SW. Now if they made an Ewok that is a force user, that twirls a light saber and hates sand, or if they bring back Skippy the Jedi Droid than that might be the last straw for me.
     
    #1225 deadmanwalkin009, May 22, 2018
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
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  6. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    This topic has definitely wandered far off the topical mark at this point, but I did want to address this.

    Fans who hated the films demanded that George Lucas quit; they denied it recognition as canon (many still won't recognize them as canon).
    Whole reams of lists were generated on bulletin boards of how they weren't Star Wars.

    It wasn't about people not liking some choices here and there. It was absolutely about the fundamental definition of what is Star Wars, and to that group; the Prequels were not Star Wars.
    For example, the problem with midichlorians wasn't that it was a bad choice; it was a conversation wrapped around what the fundamental philosophy of what Star Wars was, and that concept radically changed the philosophy of the Force in many fan's minds.

    As for quality. Oh my dear lord. There was a pile of hate over the quality of the films.
    People railed against the films as being basically animations with actors tossed in, like Wing Commander video games of the time (which ironically starred Mark Hammil), and they were called the "Walking, Talking, Sitting, Talking" films because the films are so damn slow by comparison to, oh, I don't know - the Matrix which just came out right in front of TPM.
    They literally go and have tea to figure out what to do about an eminant threat. Yeah, people were pretty upset about the film quality.

    As to the writing, good lord. "I don't like sand" became a champion catch-phrase to embody the entire level of hate over the writing the films had among the fans who hated the films. "I love water" was another one.
    The prequels had about a 50% increase in characters telling us how they feel, rather than showing it (yes, I counted). People picked up on that.

    Writing was probably the number one most highlighted reason that people cited for hating the prequels.


    No matter how much you hate TLJ, the level of hate and the volume of it will never come close to what happened in the wake of the prequels.
    George Lucas even stated at one point that he basically stopped using the internet...and then I'll remind you again, he QUIT directly because of the hate over the prequels.
    "Why would I make any more, when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?" - George Lucas

    So...good job. Keep trashing PEOPLE because you didn't like a FILM.

    [​IMG]

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  7. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    They used to. Not so much any more. Their next film due in 3 days is expected to dive well beneath a billion apparently.

    And Marvel has had its missteps, but they tend to learn from them and adjust. Iron Man Deuce. Thor: The Dark Turd. Lucasfilm and their diehards are like... 'nothing to see here, move along'. Meanwhile there is a big gash in the product, its taking on water, and they're like... no way this ship can sink! Umm hmm.

    Its why Marvel Studios, with 10 years of movies, is more trusted to deliver, than Lucasfilm with 41. Lucasfilm has a history of dumping loads... in fact... Honest Trailers put forth a timely video today to remind us how bad these guys can really get!



    I also find it amazing how fanbois believe you can only be a fan of one particular product. How dare you laud Marvel for putting out a great film that is tearing up the charts?

    HAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA. You lose.

    Bulletin boards! God.... that made me laugh. Were you ever ON bulletin boards? Because I was. Most were largely gone and replaced by the Internet by the time TPM rolled around, and none of them you'd take as being any type of authority on anything. By that time most of those fans were either on Usenet or IRC(the BBS heyday was like early 80's to ~96 when the Internet was really taking hold. Wow.. bulletin boards. LOL. You officially get my Favorite Thing About the Day award when you spot checked BULLETIN BOARDS as being the authority on TPM or the Prequels and representative of the 'backlash' being the same as TLJ. Just wow. I <3 you.
     
    #1227 ScumAndVillainy, May 22, 2018
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  8. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    I enjoyed Thor The Dark World. As I said: I love the MCU just as much as Star Wars. Also, Dark World is much better with Infinity War context/second viewing. Your nicknames are cute by the way.
     
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  9. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Eh... if it requires context from later movies to make sense of it, its probably not a good idea and likely why they largely stopped a lot of that after Age of Ultron, which also ended up a muddled mess #honesty. You want to introduce stuff that is built upon and gets referenced later, not introduce stuff that gets built and explained later. The first works, the second just confuses the viewer and muddies the story in movie form(works better if a TV show). But early on in the process they were also learning what not to do.

    Its also usually the biggest single trap movie screenwriters fall into when starting a new series. They drop 'hints' to stuff not made as like a carrot to come back and find out the answer or what it really meant. My understanding from some of the reviews is that So Low may fall into this trap. Looking down the road rather than simply focusing on world building using the current story, such that you then expand on that later.
     
    #1229 ScumAndVillainy, May 22, 2018
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  10. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    And bulletin boards and forums were still very much the means of community conversation and connection in 2000.
    There wasn't social media yet, and an indexible internet was a rather recent thing that wasn't really fully functional yet; google was only a couple of years old and it hadn't really taken off quite yet. People were still using dogpile and webspider, and even altavista.digtal.com.

    For websites, Geocities was still reigning king for personal sites people would attempt to use in the way they would once MySpace came about.

    But do go on and attempt to school a guy who grew up and works in the telecommunications and internet business what the history of the internet is.

    Cheers,
    Jayson

    MOD EDITED
     
    #1230 Jayson, May 22, 2018
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  11. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Bulletin Boards for community discussion? No. Never.

    I'm sure there may have been some isolated examples somewhere in the country? But you go through 100 boards in your town and maybe one even had an area for SW discussion and maybe 2 guys would be active and talk about it. Bulletin Boards were never hotbeds of community support. If you think that, you were never on them. Most BBS's were single-line and severely limited by the fact that you could only call within your area code without running up long-distance charges. That limited the number of active users to at most like 10-20. Unless it was a major service like CompuServe, Prodigy, or AoL… at which point you're talking forums and lotsa them dollars as they charged you by the minute or whatever the traffic could bear.

    The fun ones were the multi-line which allowed for chat, and those were largely used for just talking to people around your area and making friends, and not really about a specific topic like SW. Just bs around talking about whatever, and you meet up once a month. It was never a... omg we are Star Wars. If there were actually boards out there like that, i'd have probably been on them. Either way, the first were the more prominent type, the second were rare because it took someone with means to have the phone company setup like 8 lines into their home to run it.

    The Internet really hit with ISP's becoming prevalent to provide the Web as a service around 1996 and by 1997 you could have shot off a cannon on BBS's and not hit anyone. The chat stuff got replaced by IRC, the message areas replaced by Usenet. Then in the next decade it all got replaced by web forums like these. But BBS's were done and buried before TPM came around.

    You're kidding, right? Multimedia really hit in '94 with people buying desktops. The Web in '96. Yahoo started '95 with Google in '99. Facebook was '04. I'm really starting to wonder your age, because you're apparently going off how you think it happened or what you read rather than how it actually happened. By 1999, the net was everywhere and BBS's were a distant memory. They were not used as a means of community because quite simply you couldn't get enough like-minded people together on any one board.

    Google started the same year TPM came out. It was actually rather late to the party but caught up.

    Most people used Yahoo and most of the people who got online on the internet had never even heard of BBS's. BBS's were always a distinct tech sub-culture.

    GeoCities was more a novelty site, tbh. It was hardly the king of anything. Ever. Yahoo and then Google... because what finally sold the internet was being able to actually find stuff.

    For social media, you had Myspace and then Facebook rolled it like a day-old baby and pretty much redefined social media to whatever it is today.

    Lol. Done.
     
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  12. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Oh.. and just to be clear... if you were lookin for digital community in the mid to late 90's, for the internet that was the Usenet Newsgroups. Someone would come along later and say... this is nifty... I wonder what a web version of this would be like??

    They then created Reddit. Its so shamelessly a ripoff of Usenet, I doubt they even hide its origins.

    The AMA even has its origins in Usenet Newsgroups and a certain showrunner by the name of Joe Michael Stracyznski of Babylon 5 fame basically created it(but it wasn't called that). He was doing that as a means of promotion before they even had a name for it. You'd ask questions about the show after the episode aired that week in the newsgroup(rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5).. he'd take the time after work to answer.. they'd coallate the answers as an Ask JMS on the episode page on the Lurker's Guide.
     
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  13. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
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    "But it's a flop! I can prove it by pointing out that a fellow Disney franchise - which has greater annual expenses due to releasing multiple movies a year - made more money! IT'S A CONSPIRACY!"


    You're grasping. With last weekend's drop at the international box office, there's a decent chance that it comes short of $2B, much less short of clearing TFA's total. It clearing Titanic is a pipe dream.

    Also, just throwing this out there, so far TLJ is the only movie to follow a movie that made $2B, and will continue to be the only movie until (potentially) Avengers 4 and whenever Avatar 2 finally comes out. And I can tell you that Avatar 2 is probably going to see a sizable drop greater than TLJ, but that won't stop it from (probably) being a hit.
     
    #1233 Pomojema, May 23, 2018
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  14. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    i actually doubt that, but it'll probably depend on the film's quality. I suspect that Av 2 will go huge in the box office, and then we'll see that chunky drop off in 3,4,5,6,7.. however many sequels he's making lol.

    what the hell any of it means though is beyond me. Shawshank Redemption made $58.3 million.. what a load of crap that must have been :D
     
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  15. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
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    Four.

    While I do think Avatar 2 will get something of a nostalgia-bump from people who remember seeing it nearly a decade ago, plus a bump from whatever interest there will be in the new technology Jim Cameron's developed, the franchise doesn't have the same kind of imprint that other similar franchises have. And that's what's most fascinating to me in seeing how well it ultimately does. No way does it get to $2B again, unless China and other international markets are really into it.
     
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  16. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    The fun is in the seeing at this point. We'll see. I'm not an expert on global box office and how fast it does or does not drop off. I just see that 24 days in it was at $1.8 billion total. $300 million or so on the backend shouldn't be a hard get, but as stated... this isn't really setup to emotionally resonate like next year's movie. This is setup with a cliffhanger and could ultimately be heavily front-loaded. Either way, that's all just nit-picking as its already made top-tier money and the rest is just seeing where it ends up. It makes absolutely no difference to me at this point what some made up metric like multiplier for domestic money happens to be, and find it hilarious people try to knock it based on that. You're simply trying to shave the hairs off a fly at that point. Its like the dude had a complete game no-hitter, but GDI only 3 strikeouts. If he was Nolan Ryan, would have been 10!? Ya... nobody cares.

    He won the game, ok?

    Also bear in mind that Titanic's numbers are inflated by the 2012 3D re-release. The original first-run was $600m/$1.2b or $1.8 billion overall.

    Like the last two Cameron films, we really won't know what it'll do until it does it. Avatar itself nobody gave a chance in hell of making Titanic numbers. Titanic itself was expected to flop back in '97, particularly given how large the budget was for the time. With Cameron movies, you know what they make after they make it, because a lot of the performance is based on how the movie is received by and effects the audience.

    That said... wherever Avengers 3 ends up, I have a feeling Avengers 4 will shatter it.

    But then, both of Cameron's big films had absolutely no previous franchise history attached to them for build. Yet they still went large.

    Personally.. Avatar 2 can make anywhere from very little to $3+ billion. By no means is $2 billion some glass ceiling for him when he's the one who proved it could be done. Also factor in that its pre-sold as being 'watch it in the best theater for the highest price to get the intended effect', and just like the first movie that'll certainly help its numbers greatly. Even better is that while there is a far larger installed base of 3D screens, most films have been backing away from 3D screenings, leaving little competition for those theaters. One thing that is almost certain about Avatar 2-5, is they shouldn't have outsized OW. Cameron movies make their money by sustaining week-to-week, rather than being front-loaded and dropping off.

    Put this way, I don't really watch movies at the theater in 3D anymore(not that I ever really did given the 3D is usually post-production). I wouldn't watch an Avatar movie in anything BUT 3D and preferably IMAX.
     
    #1236 ScumAndVillainy, May 23, 2018
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
  17. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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  18. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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  19. Mike

    Mike Rebel Commander

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    Well, that's a strange one. Force Friday for The Force Awakens was on Sept. 4th with a movie release date of Dec. 18th. The Last Jedi had a Force Friday of Sept 1st with a movie release of Dec 15th...

    The data showed that there was as much, if not more interest in The Last Jedi than for The Force Awakens....
     
  20. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    I'm paraphrasing, but the thought was there a lot of anticipation from TFA with the long gap since RotS so that worked for TFA, but they should have did the launch for TLJ closer to the movie release. Beats me if it's just spin, but I don't buy toys so what do I know (apparently a lot of people don't since Toys R Us is bankrupt)?
     
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