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A reflection on the introduction of Sith to the prequels

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by FallenAngel, Sep 5, 2016.

?

Remove the restrictive extinct Sith concept

  1. good idea

    16.7%
  2. bad idea

    44.4%
  3. dont care.

    38.9%
  1. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    Why did the prequels introduce a 1000 year void of Sith and how does this effect the sequel trilogy.

    1. To establish the jedi had stopped being able to perceive the Sith.
    2. To emphasise that the Jedi were in there final death throws and “out of balance”.

    They also showed us that the Sith, though thought dead were actually not.

    So who were the jedi fighting in the absence of Sith - Other none Sith / Dark side Users.

    But in the original movies the dark side users Darth Sidious and Darth Vader were only ever described as dark side Users, so why introduce a concept of a Sith order, if in the same breath they have to do away with it by saying any one the Jedi fought is just not part of the Sith order, why create such a bind that restricts 1000 years of recent history?

    FIX
    there is a possibility, remove the line "this Sith have been extinct for a millennium" said by the jedi council.

    It is a minor plot point that the Jedi though the Sith extinct.
    Removing this would not alter the Phantom menace, arguably the weaker of the three films in any significant way, nor would it change any of the overall Prequel trilogy.

    We as the audience are not aware until told that the jedi think the Sith extinct and by the time we are told it is long after we have seen Darth maul and all naturally assume him to be a Sith / Dark side user any way.

    Lucas has recently brought back Darth maul after he killed him off, so this minor tweek would mean any writer that wants to tell a tale of Sith / dark side users would be free to do it right up to the prequel time line. Instead of having to work around a 1000 year absence.

    Conclusion
    With no restriction on how the Sith developed over the years the new Sequal saga is free to introduce characters that can still remain steeped in that rich Sith tradition with out any conflicting story lines?
     
    #1 FallenAngel, Sep 5, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
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  2. mrverylongusername

    mrverylongusername Rebelscum

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    There are 1.2bn Roman Catholics in the world, but only one Pope - Dark Lord of the Sith is another such exclusive title.

    One thing is very clear from the new canon - our previous understanding of Jedi vs Sith is far too basic. Clone Wars: The Lost Missions, Rebels, TFA are all hinting of a much wider range of belief systems and interpretations of the Force - just as in real life we have countless belief systems stemming from the same proto-Abrahamic religion. There are going to be more flavours of Force religion in the GFFA.

    I agree that some of the retconning through the PT and now the ST has been a little clumsy. In the OT Lucas clearly hadn't really refined it beyond his original dichotomy of Ashla and Bogan. In the PT he needed an explanation as to why the Sith weren't a constant thorn in the Jedi Order's side. The rule of 2 was a simple way of allowing a credible threat to be lurking in the shadows whilst also dangling a juicy, esoteric carrot to tempt Anakin. If the SIth were comparable in number to the Jedi, then that tale of Darth Plagueis the wise would be common knowledge.

    I expect the ST will go some way to answering the question: "If the temptation towards the darkside is so strong, why aren't there more darkside users?"
     
    #2 mrverylongusername, Sep 6, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
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  3. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    First let me just clarify my point.

    Because Darth Vader and Darth Sidious in the O.T are the people associated with the Ancient tradition talked about.
    And the prequel trilogy associates Vader and Sidious to the Sith.
    Anakin to Palpatine -
    This means the ancient Sith tradition from prequel backwards ceased to exist.
    Jedi council -
    and from the O.T onwards became the Sith.
    Because if Palpatine and Vader are Sith in the prequels as an extension of the prequels SITH label they become Sith in the O.T.

    But the newly crowned "Sith" being thought dead for a 1000 years is only to establish the shock at the presence of Darth Maul.
    Qui-Gon-Ginn -
    Jedi council -
    Its a line designed to add weight to the new presence of one single character?

    In the later movies they are looking for a dark Sith Lord, so just adapt the phantom menace to be
    It then ties in to the rest of the trilogy nicely.

    Then when in the phantom menace when Obi-Wan say to Anakin -
    It makes sense. because the Sith have alway been around. they never went away.
     
    #3 FallenAngel, Sep 6, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  4. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    No, the history of the rule of two that Lucas created for the Prequels was vital for the story.
    And you seem to have forgotten a very important line from ANH:

    'For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire".
    Now, although a "thousand generations" isn't exactly 1000 years, you see the point being made. There was peace. Until Vader betrayed the Jedi Order.

    The Rule of Two was woven into every part of the story of the prequels so as much as you'd like to change it for some reason, it doesn't make sense to do so. But anyway, how does this relate to Episode VIII?
     
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  5. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    Yeh I couldn't agree more.

    Abrahamic Archetypes

    ok. the Jedi and Sith stem from a similar abrahamic type way. well so to speak. The Sith stem form the Jedi.
    The Jedi essentially were Abraham, until the Sith arose, then they both became the Abram of there diametrically opposed beliefs.
    This is an important point because the Sith traditions talked about stem from and persevere some of the Jedi traditions still.
    The construction of a light sabre for one is a direct Jedi tradition.

    Once taught the Sith tradition, a Sith is a Sith, as Darth maul has recently shown, because the name Darth is irrelevant, its being inducted in to the tradition, and subscribing to that way of life.
    Even the seemingly insignificant use of a lightsaber actually signifies you have been taught the tradition.
    when people cry for the end of the Sith in the new sequel the forget with it goes all the history and tradition, even the knowledge of the construction of a lightsaber goes with it, no more lightsabre fights. GONE

    The new Flavour
    take for instance, if Maul taught a female none Sith all he knows and she left him and formed her own witch group, she would have been inducted in to the Sith tradition nether the less, and so would only be perpetuating the Sith tradition whether she knows it or not.

    Only a new character developed free from the teachings of any Jedi or Sith with there own original belief system can be truly a new force group.
    I personally am interested how they develop these. Maz looked like a step in that direction a none force user that through hearing about the story of the force had developed an understanding of it. essentially her own personal belief system around the force. (I'm just not personally a maz fan and it seems she may be force capable to)

    This would have to be the basis for a independent force group to develop, though obviously with a force ability and no connection to either of the two Root traditions.

    One last important point is the Sith and jedi have been the main conflict through out the galaxy for over a thousand generations.
    Any group that develops will to some extent have been influenced by the existence of these to Root systems, thats why I say while the Jedi are to the Sith and all light side users the abrahamic archetype the Sith become there own Abraham to all other force capable dark side user groups wether developed independently of the Sith teachings or not.
     
    #5 FallenAngel, Sep 6, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  6. Mcbee

    Mcbee Rebel General

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    The mystery of the return of the sith is one of the more effective plot elements of the PT. It is also essential in adding mystique to palpatine's long plot. As a story device it works well and is part of the essence of the then modern sith- to work in the shadows. Removing this plot point, unlike ret-conning darth maul's death creates massive problems. If you want to write fan fic about the 1000 year gap be my guest, but i don't see how making such a change is essential, from a story telling perspective.

    The line was not meant only to add shock to the arrival of maul, rather the arrival of maul was meant to shock the jedi- a foe long thought vanquished had returned.

    Vader and palpatine don't just "become sith" in the ot because of the prequels. Vader is refered to as a lord of the sith in OT scripts, novelizations, and in 70s/80s comics. You know this. Even so, so what?

    No more lightsaber fights? Are you serious? You can't be serious.

    First, do we even know how far back light sabers go in current Canon? They very well could pre-date jedi or sith.

    Second, although lightsabers are an important symbol and rite of passage for the jedi, they are hardly necessary on a philosophical level for either jedi or sith. That said, i don't suspect LFL will retire lightsabers in the saga.

    Third, maul did not show us that the title "darth" means nothing. He showed us it no longer means anything to him. Big difference.

    And while we may agree that sith and Jedi ideology will inform many groups of force users, all this fails to amount to a need to get rid of the 1000 years in hiding.

    Why is this in the ep8 forum? This is a PT discussion.
     
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  7. mrverylongusername

    mrverylongusername Rebelscum

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    The point of my introducing the Abrahamic faiths as a comparison is... well let me just make a (non exhaustive) list off the top of my head:
    Church of England, Roman Catholic, Quakers, Methodists, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists, Rastafarians, Greek Orthodox, Orthodox Jews, Hasidic Jews, Shias and Sunnis.

    These different churches/faiths have all evolved over centuries from one religious concept we call God. Each has it's own prophecies, prophets, chosen ones and codes; some even share some but differ in their interpretations. Swap the Force for God and change the geography from one planet to an entire Galaxy over 1000 generations and there's potential to be far more than just Jedi and Sith in the GFFA.

    We don't know that. There's no source for that. A priest stripped of his title is no longer a priest, but he may well still hold the same beliefs and live by the same code. Maul is still evil and duplicitous, he still uses the darkside: he's not a Sith anymore.

    No. See my first point. Religion evolves. Jesus was raised as a Jew not a Christian.

    No. The Sith were thought extinct for the last millennium, previous to that there was the rule of 2. The origins of the Sith are no longer canon - we know nothing further back than that.

    The ST can still provide excitement and villainous force users without having to retcon the retcon.
     
    #7 mrverylongusername, Sep 7, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
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