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Anakin, Ben Solo and Tying the Saga Together

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by GotTheSilver, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. GotTheSilver

    GotTheSilver Rebel General

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    I have been thinking about how Episode IX can tie the saga together. To me, the entire Star Wars saga is a Greek tragedy, a morality tale.


    Whatever happens to Kylo/Ben Solo in IX has to be part of tying the entire saga together. The OT was not about Luke, it was about Anakin. Similarly, I think the ST is not about Rey, it is about Ben. Comparing Ben to Anakin I think may be the key to understanding the saga as a whole. Anakin never wanted to be evil. He never wanted to go to the dark side. He only did it as a last ditch effort to save Padme, an altruistic act (however messed up it was). When he was presented with the knowledge that he had offspring, that part of Padme lived on, he found the strength he needed to break free of the dark side. Anakin redeemed himself in order to save his son, whom Palpatine was about to kill.


    Ben Solo is very different. Yes, he was manipulated by Snoke, but there does not seem to be any altruism in his decisions. He wants to be evil, even against some part of himself that is fighting against it. He chooses to commit himself to the dark side. He chooses to kill his father, rather than save a loved one. Unlike Anakin, Ben seems to be doing this for purely selfish reasons. He wants power and glory for himself. He doesn’t love anyone enough to put their needs above his own and pull himself away from the dark side. I think it would be a fitting end to Ben Solo to see him entirely consumed by his selfishness and hatred and destroyed by it.


    This would be a strong counterpoint to Anakin. Whereas Anakin made some very bad decisions, he was motivated by his caring for others and thus ultimately was able to redeem himself. Ben is motivated by selfish reasons, and this leads to his destruction. I think that is a very strong morality tale.


    What do you think?
     
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  2. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Kylo Ren is a reversed Anakin and an Anti-Luke Skywalker.

    Anakin fell to the dark side because of love. <=> Kylo will rise to the light side because of love.

    JJ said that Kylo thinks he's doing the right thing. So I wouldn't say he wants to be evil. What is evil anyway? It's a point of view.

    Even though I would like Kylo to die as a villain, it's kinda unlikely. Star Wars was and is about redemption.
     
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  3. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel General

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    Great topic!

    You could also say that Anakin has also rised to the light at the end because of love, and compassion, for his son. I believe Ben will have the same fate, most probably to save Rey. If he dies in sacrifice or lives remains to be seen. It may be in IX or beyond, but I believe it will happen, because that's just what Star Wars is in the end, isn't it? So, they may have started differently, but will most probably end in the same place, grandfather and grandson.

    I agree with this. I don't think Ben wants to be evil, necessarily. I think he feels he's right. He probably feels a bit the same way as his grandfather when he thought that politicians, and factions were the problem, and that he hoped a single wise person could do better. Many of those people working for the Empire, and now the FO, I don't think they do it because they're evil. As you say, many believe they're doing the right thing, working for the right cause. If you played Tie Fighter or other SW games where you played as the Empire, you'd know even better what I mean. Always that point of view.

    I'm not so sure. I'm still quite puzzled by what drives Ben/Kylo exactly. What drove the Emperor and Vader was clear. Even Snoke's motivations seemed quite obvious. What drives Kylo? Selfish reasons? But what exactly?

    I feel Kylo/Ben is the least linear character in the entire Star Wars movies, and that makes him interesting. However, I hope there's much more to him in store and that IX will finally shed more light on his personal motivations. All this being accidental would be a bit disappointing. If Kylo rose to power missguided and later to fear of Snoke, what exactly made Ben turn and get so enraged of the past?

    And how exactly did his father, mother and uncle failed him? Maybe Leia was right. She may have lost her son the day she let her brother take him to be trained as a Jedi. As I think about it, Anakin was also separated from his mother to be trained as a Jedi. Could there be a relevant parallel here? Driven by hubris, the Jedi may have created Vader and Kylo inadvertently. By potentiating their power with the force, maybe what the Jedi were doing was unbalancing it. That's probably why Luke decided to end it all, for what he was concerned. Interesting, but I digress.

    I agree with NinjaRen. Other topics elsewhere also led me to realize that at the end, Star Wars is about redemption. It was George's vision for the whole thing, and I don't think they will change that since it seems to be at the heart of the matter. There may be twists and turns, but in the end of the last chapter, I'll bet things will be good, the main protagonist will rise to the light (even if they don't live past it) and people will be happy.
     
    #3 greenbalrog, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
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  4. FN-3263827

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    yeah, Star Wars is a fairy tale.
    seems like there's no way they're going to end this on a tragedy.
    let alone let the child of Han & Leia go down in flames.

    Anakin fell in the PT, Ben will rise in the ST.
    Vader died and never had a chance to truly atone for his crimes or live out some purposefulness in the Light. I think Ben will.
     
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  5. GotTheSilver

    GotTheSilver Rebel General

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    I think the OT is about redemption, but I am not ready to assume that the ST is. LFL is probably more likely to redeem Ben Solo in order to make fans happy and feel good, but I think it would be a stronger story if they didn't.

    When I say Ben wants to be evil, I mean "evil" from my point of view. Whether the FO believes they are doing the right thing or not, the general audience views the FO as evil and the Resistance as good. That was what I was referring to.
     
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  6. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel General

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    Sure, the audience views the FO as evil and the Resistance as good, no doubt there.

    When you say you think Ben wants to be evil, you mean consciously choosing evil over good for whatever reason. You may be right. He does admit to be a monster. So, that line suggests he knows he's being purposefully evil when we could choose another path. After all, he was raised by Leia for many years, and he is a Skywalker. He repeatedly says or is said to be in conflict. So, you say he decided (or will decide) to go the evil path. But now free from Snoke, what will he do?
     
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  7. FN-3263827

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    oh, i'd be careful about that particular line. he's acknowledging being a monster because he just found out from Snoke that he killed his father for nothing.
    he's feeling sorry for himself and admitting to having committed an atrocious act, not reveling in it.
    later in the throne room, he tries to reconcile it all by suggesting everything needs to be destroyed.
    this is the only way he can deal with and make sense of the awfulness of it.
    this is not the rational act of someone committed to evil.
    this is a guilty man trying to bury the bodies so that he doesn't have to look at them.
     
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  8. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel General

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    Wow, thanks for the eye opener. Could definitely be that. I was puzzled by that sentence of his. After all, it would confirm that he would be consciously being evil and I was not getting the total sense of that. That scene and probably the entire Ben's arc gains a new meaning to me, thanks.
     
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  9. GotTheSilver

    GotTheSilver Rebel General

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    Interesting. I had not thought about things that way.
     
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  10. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    I never saw original trilogy as being about Anakin, for me it was always Luke's story. Only the prequel trilogy enabled a different reading of it. Yes, Vader was redeemed, but only due to Luke's efforts - he was the only one who believed in Vader.

    I don't see anyone redeeming Kylo. For it to become possible and for the story not to be repeated, he has to do it on his own. There will be price to pay, for sure, but this is the only way I can see him being redeemed and proving that he IS a Skywalker.

    Otherwise, your option is completely viable and he self-destructs.
     
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  11. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    The "happy ending" we were getting in 9 (if KK keeps her job) is a destroyed FO, ded Ben/Ren & a grey jedi order with Rey at the wheel.
     
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  12. GotTheSilver

    GotTheSilver Rebel General

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    I realize this is the logical assumption for tying up the trilogy in a "happy" ending, but I have a hard time seeing how they make the destruction of the FO believable given the state the Resistance is in, unless they skip quite a bit of time and assume the Resistance rebuilt itself in that time.
     
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  13. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Ben/Ren dead wouldn't be a happy ending. Reylo would be the happiest ending. I would rather have a more dramatic and ambiguous ending.
     
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  14. FN-3263827

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    the Resistance has reserves in the Outer Rim and others will rise up with them, but i think the FO will more likely self-destruct.
     
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  15. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    I am (as well as most people) are under the assumption there will be a few year time jump. Therefore the Resistance will be much stronger then where they left off in TLJ.
     
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  16. LadyMusashi

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    Not really.

    I believe we will get a time jump (at least three years, possibly more), but I also believe that, at least partially, this will also be true. We have old Imperial guard within FO (like Canady), upstarts like Hux and the new Supreme Leader who is a wizard and unstable. That's a recipe for internal conflict. The possibility that some stormtroopers had a glimpse of Finn defeating Phasma might also initiate a dissent.
     
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  17. FN-3263827

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    i think he means in context of "fairy tales" and lalala and that sort of thing.

    yeah, i just don't see them being able to hold it together; their whole ideology is built on a falsehood.
    right now the only thing they have going for them is that they recognized Palpatine's failings.
    which is another reason they're probably not going to tolerate Ren as Supreme Leader for long.
     
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  18. LadyMusashi

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    I clearly like different fairy tales. :D

    Some of them (Hux) won't, others might adore him for his power. FIRST ORDER CIVIL WAR!
     
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  19. FN-3263827

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    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    When you watch TLJ again, pay close attention to Peavey. He's sick and tired of Hux, Ren and all of the wimps running the First Order. There's either going to be a civil war in the First Order or he and the rest of the old guard will join the Rebellion just to get as far away from these dummies as possible.
     
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