Anakin was right the (prequel) Jedi are evil

I honestly don't know what to think anymore, it was Sidious's game & Anakin was the piece that completed the puzzle, the clone army would have killed Anakin along with the jedi council regardless.

 

The Kaminoans had programmed the clones to obey without question, I know season 2 of rebels proved the likes of Rex were able to see a different purpose to their existence they are the Cartman guys.

 

Im pretty sure this has been posted before, but alas. It is relevant again. I think this actually one of the greatest debates of the the franchise. The jedi are capable of doing evil. Those who played KOTOR remember when the Jedi performed a Force Lobotomy in order to turn Reaven from "evil" to "good".

 

It's a subject worthy of moral debate no doubt, especially considering that back in 1980 the Boba Fett armor used to belong to the "shocktroopers" which were defeated by the Jedi during the Clone Wars...

And if the Force is created by all living beings, than the clones contributed to that, too.

 

Just one central point of contention here. The Republic did not order the clones made, the movies lead you to believe it's Darth Sidious posing as Sifo-Dyas, the cartoons lead you to believe it was the work of one lone Jedi gifted in foresight. Even the Jedi do not particularly value foresight. One of the old EU comics from the Old Republic has an entire storyline where Jedi fortune tellers go about doing a whole lot of evil because of their misinterpretation of a vision of the future. Thus, they slaughter their own padawans believing them to be future Sith and it turns out it was because they took action on their vision that they caused the turmoil in the galaxy to begin with. Just pointing out that Jedi do make mistakes, they've never been presented as incapable of making mistakes.

Still, the existence of the clones became a necessary convenience for the Jedi when the Separatists attacked. That alone absolves the Jedi and the Republic of some responsibility there. Still tho, while, I don't believe the Jedi are the epitome of absolute good, nor the Sith the epitome of absolute evil, the Jedi did debate over the issue. If you look at expanded universe material, the Jedi always went out of their way to treat the clones as actual people. It was often the clones who preferred to be treated as what they were made to do. You also have to factor plot device or plot enforcement of certain things. Without the clones, Sidious couldn't fulfill Order 66 and kill off the Jedi in order to take control.

So yes, the Jedi sometimes perform the actions of a necessary evil for the greater good just like the Sith performed actions of necessary good for the greater evil. Although, Sidious was the one that orchestrated everything, he still also pretended to be a good leader and protected the people of the Republic up until his reveal. Even after the rise of the Empire, you must recognize there are people who like the Empire because they feel the Empire took care of them and those people aren't necessarily evil in any way.

I also read an Expanded Universe story the other night where there was a schism in the Jedi over the war, but it turned out those who were against the war and refusing to continue to fight and lead the Clones were being manipulated by a Jedi who had fallen to the dark side. Mace Windu had come to meet with the dissenters and had to confront a long time Jedi instructor and friend due to him being seduced by the dark side.

The author of that article also missed key points in the movie. The very fact the Republic used the clones was because they did not have the resources to build an army. This was said a few times throughout Episodes 1 and 2 prior to the war starting. Therefore, again, the clones were a much-needed convenience for them. The only reason Yoda went to get them in Attack of the Clones was because the Separatists started their attack on Geonosis and the Jedi were outnumbered. At that time, the Jedi were the only combatants of the Republic and from what I remember, it would take too long to build or recruit a human army.

The author of this article seems to simply want to go out of their way to utilize the existence and use of the clones as a ding against the Jedi. Yes, it is a relatively deep moral topic, but in the movie it's over simplified and the article misrepresents a ton of stuff. For instance, the Jedi nor the Republic made the clones wear helmets in order to dehumanize them, the clones chose to stay in uniform because they were indoctrinated by the Kaminoans with a military mindset. Also, the clones weren't nor couldn't really be treated as second class citizens because that topic did not come up. I suspect it's because they didn't have a choice but to be bred to fight. Again, not the Republic's or Jedi's doing.

I'm just saying, his point would be better made if he didn't misrepresent so much of the smaller things in his overall premise. Also, I feel it a bit too simplistic to compare the Clones in a galaxy far, far away to slavery. It's not like the clones did not show some sign of the ability to chose. It's just most didn't because of indoctrination, but there are examples that some did. In Clone Wars & Rebels we discover Sidious has put chips in their head which further forces the clones to obey, not Jedi nor Republic, and a group of clones learn about this and go against their genes and indoctrination and surgically remove them. Still, I agree about the complexities and cognitive dissonance about the Clones in the Star Wars universe or Prequel era.

 

To me this is a big part of the downfall of the Jedi Order, and an essential take away from the story. The Jedi embraced being warriors under Palpatine's influence, ignoring they had lost touch with the Force. (Including thet can't detect the Sith Lord, and study the living force through medichlorians vs. Understanding the cosmic force, etc) This is why we get to meet an exhiled Yoda in episode V that remarks "wars do not make one great.", as he realized the failures of the Jedi ways of that era.

Fwiw, the Kanan comic has reference to this, where his Jedi master shares that Jedi Generals are against their teachings. (Moments before they a subject to order 66)

As for birthday plates, we've had Darth Vader on everything for kids too, so celebrating bad guys is somewhat common now.

 

If anyone's read the Republic Commando series of books you know how much they involve the morality of the Clone Army. They make some good points about the Jedi accepting an army of clones to fight the war. I imagine that it came down to the Republic saying that they were going to use the clones with or without the Jedi, so the Jedi realized they wouldn't be able to make a difference in whether or not the clones would fight.

 

I've always preferred the Sith to the Jedi, even since I was a child and once I read http://ammonra.org/skywalkerparadigm/ my view point has been skewered. I can't watch the OT without that perspective and Darth Vader being the real hero of the trilogy.

 

only the PT ever made me question the "wrongness" of the Empire. the Jedi were rotten in the PT, straight-up no better than Sidious.

maybe that's the point, but it sure is a disappointing one.

 

I can imagine an episode of one of the new SW tv shows: "Jedi On Strike."

 

Four things always bothered me about the Jedi in the PT. (Side note-I love the Jedi so take this with a grain of salt).

1. Literally 3-4 Siths were able to take down the whole order, who seemed clueless until it was too late? Huh??

2. They knew about slavery in the outer planets but made no effort to free them...except when they found Anakin

3. Anakin suffered terribly with his fear of loosing the ones he lived (Mom, Padme), but the Jedi showed no compassion or desire to help him ease the pain he was in until he cracked under the pressure. Then they sent his father figure to kill him (OB-1)

4. Mace Windu was going to kill Palpatine without a fair trial. I get his reasoning, but from Anakin's point of view how angering. Anakin shouldn't break the rules but Windu can?

 

Love it. I wish the Jedi's were viewed more like the Free Masons rather than a branch of government. It would have worked better if they were influencing power and events rather than wielding power outright.

 

At first thought, yes this does seem kind of hard to believe. However, when you consider the fact that the Seperatists really weakened the Order (and I mean really really really weakened), and the fact that the Order had existed in that state for at least a thousand years iirc and therefore had some pretty significant ego issues, Sidious's plot definitely seems possible. I think that overall, it's a result of the Jedi not expecting that kind of plot to happen because the Sith were in hiding for just so long.

The Jedi are keepers of peace and going after slavery (a MASSIVE galactic industry) would create war. I personally think that the crimes of slavery justify war, but trying to put a stop to it would go against the Jedi code.

Obi Wan confronted Anakin on his own terms, after he and Yoda realized that they were pretty much the only two Jedi left. And Obi Wan's hope was to perhaps knock some sense into Anakin. We should also not forget the fact that Obi Wan traveled to Mustafar after Anakin slaughtered the younglings and pretty much murdered everyone in the Jedi Temple.

If I remember correctly, Windu and co. intended to arrest Sidious, not outright kill him. However, right when Sidious pulled out his lightsaber and did the Sheev spin, they had no other choice. (Granted, they failed spectacularly but my point stands.)