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RUMOR Another report of what Colin Trevorrow's IX would have been like.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Andrew Waples, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I disagree with the one director. The PT was one writer/director. The OT had different directors.

    I think a trilogy in the hands of a group of directors is a good thing. It allows for more creativity and tonal shifts. Should there have been more writing oversight? Perhaps. But if you trace the story through the original ep9 with Trevorrow everything tracks well for me, it's TROS that sends everything screwy and it feels like an awful course correction for a small group of angry fans.

    If JJ Abrams was their guy, would the trilogy have turned out any better or would it be worse even? Would you really want 3 JJ Abrams Star Wars movies having seen TROS?
     
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  2. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Possibly.

    Or maybe the deviations are why he was axed.
     
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  3. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    That's the way I see it too. It worked well for the OT and I think the St suffers from lacking an overall vision, not from having different directors.
     
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  4. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    I can't find it, but Lucas only got a different director for Empire do to stress/health of ANH? I don't think that was the original intention.
     
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  5. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    We don't know that, do we? All we know is that one point he thought about getting Spielberg to make RotJ. To my mind this sounds like he really liked the idea of having his friends or people who's work he admire to direct his films and I guess that's also the reason why he hired Kirschner (his former teacher) to direct esb.
     
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  6. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    I'm actually disappointed that Colin didn't blow the Sithereens out of R2.

    Threepio dying was kinda lame, besides....

    No one is ever really gone,


    except Anakin Skywalker's Ghost (and Darth Plagueis the Not So Wise)....


    so they could have brought the Astromech back at the end, with no problems.












    This post contains sarcasm.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    A lot of the OT wasn't the original intention.
    But sometimes that's for the better. Happy accidents.
     
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  8. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    According to the Empire of Dreams documentary, Lucas had no intention of putting himself through the stress of trying to write and direct Episodes V and VI after what he'd gone through on Episode IV, especially after being told by a doctor to reduce his stress levels.
     
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  9. Josh

    Josh Rebel Official

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    hmm but didnt EoD only mention that he didnt want to direct the movies ?
    He was heavily involved in the writing of both pictures tho, thats why he has "story by" credit on both and "script by" on Jedi. (he gave his Empire credit to Leigh for writing her draft when she was already extremely ill. ) But technically he and Kasdan wrote ESB and Jedi.

    And "imo" he basically ghost-directed "Jedi"
     
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  10. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

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    Yes, but for some of us, the PT are better. And while yes, the OT had different directors, George was on top of the whole thing, giving the OT the cohesion it needed.

    And this is a very controversial opinion but I'd take George at the helm over Irvin. I mean, what film of Irvin's am I suppose to revel at? I can point to THX 1138 and American Graffiti as truly ground-breaking, revolutionary films that altered the arc of film permanently. As did the original SW in '77 of course.

    [QUOTE[I think a trilogy in the hands of a group of directors is a good thing. It allows for more creativity and tonal shifts.[/QUOTE]

    I think the tonal shifts are the problem here, or at least the lack of cohesion in tone and even theme across all three films.

    Take out the "perhaps" and replace with "obviously yes" and I'm in full agreement. :)

    Point taken, I'm very tired of JJ's tricks and I argue he just copied the same tricks from Star Trek, 8mm to his work on Star Wars. This video highlights how JJ uses the same patterns/tricks in all of his work and once you recognize them, it becomes harder to appreciate his art...



    Good discussion, thank you for offering your view with respect and intelligence, I am much obliged.
     
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  11. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Lucas admits in Empire of Dreams that it ultimately would have been the simpler choice to direct RotJ himself, but his original intention was to not put himself through the stresses he'd faced on ANH.
     
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  12. Josh

    Josh Rebel Official

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    I remember he also said to Irvin that he will take care of the Special Effects shots .
    And that the movie has to be a lot better than the first one.
     
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  13. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Lucas told Irvin not to worry about the SFX for TESB because Irvin had no prior experience dealing with that particular aspect of filming whereas Lucas did.

    And I'm pretty sure that "the film has to be a lot better than the first one" was said mostly in jest, although it was certainly a concern since Lucas did very much want to make RotJ and the chances of his being able to do would've lessened if TESB hadn't done well (which wouldn't really have been Irvin's fault).
     
  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I think the tonal shifts aren't the problem but a feature. The shifts from ANH --> ESB --> ROTJ are a feature. It's bright and hopeful to dark and dreary to bright and hopeful. The ST plays out in a similar way. But the end chapter is a bit disjointed in and of itself, so it makes everything feel that way.

    Irvin might not be as prolific, but remember he did teach George lol. And I think part of what makes ESB so great were the things Irvin did that Lucas didn't like, such as spending much more time with intimate shots and not wide shots Lucas could play with later.

    I think people are really underplaying the loss of Carrie in this whole thing feeling "disjointed" as well. There was a clear path with Han --> Luke --> Leia getting their movies to be the lead support. And it obviously couldn't work that way. Given what he (CT) gives us in this very early script [before Carrie's passing and before TLJ was released] I think there are very clear through lines for this ST but TROS being made as it was really muddles that.

    The biggest questions in TFA were about Luke and Rey and the TLJ spent most of that time answering them.
    The biggest questions in TLJ were about Rey and Kylo and where we go from here. TROS answer was to essentially remove their agency as characters.
    That's why it feels so much more jarring.

    And it's fine to like the PT more, but as films, the objective qualities of films, the OT is better at a lot of things. And a lot of that is in the restraint of time/money on them. Guys like Irvin and Hirsch (ANH editor) were able to help Lucas against some of his worst impulses. Impulses that bog down the PT and really mess with pacing and dialogue because those aren't things George is overly concerned about as a film maker. Which is fine, but it does make for rough watches. Again, this isn't about liking or disliking them, it's about the issue of having a singular voice on a project like this and how it can allow their worst impulses to be fed rather than restrained. Even Spielberg mentions how Kathleen Kennedy (that name again!) saved his career by reeling him in on early projects when he was going to go over-budget and passed due date AGAIN. Lucas needed that. He didn't have it. And on ROTJ he did basically shadow direct it, because Marquand didn't have the power to stand up to George (Lucas financed it himself IIRC) and would have been canned if he had. Irvin got away with it because he was shooting in London while George was founding LFL in California and there wasn't anything he could do about it.

    TL;DR version: The tonal shifts are the easy target of inconsistent work from the last chapter IMO. It's an easy scapegoat but it's a major part of large story telling. (LOTR, WoT, Star Wars, Harry Potter etc). You can't expect the viewers to grow if the story never does.
     
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  15. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I think the tonal shifts are the problem here, or at least the lack of cohesion in tone and even theme across all three films.



    Take out the "perhaps" and replace with "obviously yes" and I'm in full agreement. :)



    Point taken, I'm very tired of JJ's tricks and I argue he just copied the same tricks from Star Trek, 8mm to his work on Star Wars. This video highlights how JJ uses the same patterns/tricks in all of his work and once you recognize them, it becomes harder to appreciate his art...



    Good discussion, thank you for offering your view with respect and intelligence, I am much obliged.[/QUOTE]
    That video is what convinced me that the movie should have ended with Rey Organa instead of Skywalker. What a way to lovingly honor Leia than to give her an adoptive daughter, like she herself was adopted? But alas...

    Edit: Sorry @Snazel about the messed up quotations!

    The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills. Honestly WoT might be the closest comparison to TROS in the named examples in terms of plans being thrown into chaos (btw are you excited for the show coming to Amazon?!)
     
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  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Yes, it should have been Rey Organa given the story context.

    I am ecstatic for it. Love the casting being done and the secrecy. Ready for whatever it brings.
    And Sanderson nailed it as well as anyone could possibly dream given the situation. Though ending with Rand Skywalker was weird as hell.
     
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  17. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Yes, a very controversial opinion.
     
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  18. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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    I stopped watching the video when I noticed that in his 'summation' of TROS he was leaving out events or plot points as to evidence as to why it''s a bad film. It's also hard to take him seriously when right off the bat he declares that he dislikes the director. Not exactly an objective opinion.

    I loved this film a lot and am grateful for a forum like this where people talk intelligently.

    But I do understand that it's not everyone's tastes. It's a very character driven film and not everyone likes that. I also understand complaints that it's too rushed and some scenes should have been opened up to provide a greater context of what's going on. I also understand some people think it's too 'talky' . And not everyone likes Rey, the protagonist. These complaints I get. What I don't get or take seriously are:

    1. People who either didn't pay attention to what was going on screen or can't follow the plot so they think the film is a mess
    2. Need to be spoon fed the plot or can't read between the lines of what's going on. For example how Ren found the Wayfinder
    3. Don't like the film because it doesn't fit with their head cannon
    4. Kylo Ren died so it's automatically a dumb film
    5. The film didn't make the original 3 the main characters so it's bad.
    6. Rey should not have been a Skywalker, even though the film pretty much implies why she took the name. As a tribute to Luke and Lea who accepted her for who she was and (for a brief time) were the parents she never had. She didn't take the name to be a big shot.
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I would contend is absolutely NOT a character driven film. It's plot driven. Almost exclusively.
    The first two acts of it are almost all about macguffin chasing. We start with Ren chasing a macguffin. But wait! Now the good guys need a macguffin to find the other macguffin that does the same thing as Kylo's macguffin! The entire time this is going on, nothing really happens with the characters outside of Poe, maybe. The movie doesn't shift into being about character until the third act. Before that, it's pretty much just macguffin chasing and the removal of character agency. Ren is no longer really in charge of his own destiny, it's Palpatine. Rey is no longer really in charge of her destiny, it's Ben and Palpatine.

    That's about 2/3 of this movie. The closest thing to character work you get is Poe talking to Zorri Bliss. Otherwise it's restating things that have already been done in TFA/TLJ in terms of characters.

    You are using several strawman fallacies here to try and punctuate that you liked it and people who didn't are wrong. That's bush league.

    1. It is a mess. It's choppy and bloated. The vast majority of the first two acts are just jumping around chasing objects. You can like it but to say that feeling this is a symptom of "not paying attention" or "can't follow the plot" is bull blast and you know it. This has been a common thing among defenses is just attacking someone else's ability to think. That speaks more about those defending that those criticizing.

    2. See 1. This is bull blast and you know it.

    3. This happens with every movie attached to an IP.

    4. Haven't seen that much if at all, and the weird Twitter people don't count. They are a very vocal minority as it is in every case.

    5. Huh?

    6. It's implied to be for the fans, it's really not that deep. Leia trained her longer. The only Skywalker she knew refused to answer her call to action and purposefully tried to drive her away. Yes that is WHY she chose it because it was to honor him. For what? Leia did the hard work on that. Hell she was the only one who actually gave Rey what she actually wanted. Skywalker is just more Star Wars than Organa though. Same with Tatooine.

    So yeah. Like it all you want. But knock off this bull blast about people not being able to follow the plot or whatever. It's not that complicated.
     
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  20. Solo

    Solo Rebel Official

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    I almost stopped reading when you described TROS as a "character driven film."

    TROS is the complete opposite of a character driven film. A brainless mush of character following plot, rather that plot following character.

    I'm glad you enjoyed it, but I'd suggest you watch that video in full.
     
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