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Battle in the Throne Room

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Moral Hazard, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. ReyErso5280

    ReyErso5280 Rebel General

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    And I said to someone earlier in this thread we are all entitled to our perspectives and you were just giving yours (extends olive branch) thanks for your perspective x
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 19, 2018 ---
    On your second point that is fair. I had some of my friends describe it as dancing with the stars in space, so I can respect you’re not alone in that point of view.

    On your final point I can respect that too. I guess what I took from it was the scene is long because it’s showing our heroes almost switch sides. What’s I mean is Kylo is usually this unstable break s%^* kind of dude and Rey is calm and collected. Yet during this fight all we hear is Rey shouting and Ben is quiet and collected (for the most part) showing that light and dark is equally in both of them just at different times promoting th theme of balance

    I also took the guards not fighting as a unit more in the thread of this throne room battle wasn’t a battle it was a brawl.

    But thanks for your perspective x
     
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  2. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Yes it is. And they are officials posters. 4 for TFA and 4 for TLJ.

    Instagram of the artist:

    https://www.instagram.com/danmumforddraws/
     
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  3. Mike

    Mike Rebel General

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    The scene didn't really do it for me.. In fact, they should have never telegraphed that Kylo was turning the lightsaber at Snoke. The proper thing to do would have been to cut the parts out that showed Kylo's hand moving and the saber turning. Much bigger payoff if it's a complete surprise, rather, like a child that can't hold a secret, they give it away.

    As for the duel... I wonder why people still have to bash the prequels, especially when the crap they use to criticize the prequels, shows up in the very duel, that they say isn't like the prequels... lmao...

    So this duel is not like a dance number (like the prequels duels supposedly were)? Are you kidding me? looks like a real fight? It actually looks like they are trying to hit one another (again unlike the prequels)


    Look at the guards on the left, ready, block spin turn...1.. 2.. 3... Rey blocks them and somehow that causes them to spin and run off stage left, one right after the other...lol. Put a tu-tu on them, it's like a ballet...
    [​IMG]

    Better look at it:

    [​IMG]

    And than what happens next is really hilarious....

    Right after the above moment, the three guards that conveniently danced their way off screen, than actually stood there and watched and waited for Rey to kill one of their own, than charged at once, and Rey was somehow able to block all three at once, and the three guards stood there holding their weapons up in the air, because you know Rey was blocking them still, long enough for Rey to grab Kylo and use him as a balance so she can kick them away. Kinda blows a hole in the wall in that they were actually trying to hit her...

    [​IMG]

    Oh and lucky for Rey... So must have instantaneous grew a third leg in the above scene and than pulled it back. Three Guards lock weapons with her, she uses Kylo as a balance to kick the guards... three of them... with her two legs.. good thing they were actually really trying to hit her..


    [​IMG]

    Oh and this one is my favorite... Kylo locks weapons with two guards, as a third runs up to him. Kylo sees this, and is able to break the blocks which sends the two guards spinning away again...

    [​IMG]

    I mean what was really stopping one of the other two guards from pulling their weapon away and trying to stab somewhere else? Script? And than, what possibly caused those two guards to spin off like they did? Again,,, Tu-Tu's were in order...

    Realistic, unlike the Prequels? Actually trying to hit one another, unlike the prequels? Not like a dance number, unlike the prequels? Please...

    I don't care if people like the duel, but, if you're going to use it to bash the prequels, than you might want to make sure you aren't handing me the baton to club you with...
     
    #103 Mike, Feb 21, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
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  4. Grand Master Galen Marek

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  5. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I think it depends all on how you look at it.

    If you were expecting some big fight against Snoke, I could see how his death could've deflated the situation, and I imagine a lot of people felt that way.

    The way I see it, though, is this- Kylo just made a big gambit and it worked... but now what? You've got Rey and Kylo having to work together because the guards obviously aren't going to give them breathing room to talk about their future. So while they're both fighting, there's this unspoken acknowledgment that there's obviously going to be a big choice made soon, once the dust settles just a little bit.

    So you've got the audience wondering- why did Kylo kill Snoke? Is he the Supreme Leader now? Did he turn to the light? Is Rey going to turn to the dark?
    All of that, while one of the more impressive fight scenes in the movie (and arguably the series) plays before the audience's eyes.

    I'd say that even though there wasn't much personal conflict between Rey/ Kylo and the guards, this is still probably one of the most layered conflict scenes since the original trilogies Vader fights.
     
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  6. Mr. Crumb

    Mr. Crumb Clone Trooper

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    Rey was covertly using the force push in combination with her lightsaber acrobatics to confuse the guards and push them away :D
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    That’s a good point. I had the same perspective. Watching how telegraphed it was, I was convinced it wasn’t going to work. Snoke would surely get 'wise' to what was going on and do something. Why call that much attention to something that’s supposed to be shocking? So, I guess that’s what was shocking? That it actually worked? I don’t know. It got nothin'.
    To be honest, I completely tuned out when this fight happened. I really wasn’t paying attention to the choreography at all. Those GIFs are pretty priceless though, “Run away! Run away!”

    I was more noticing how much more visceral than the prequels the action was. That’s not ‘bashing’, it’s just personal preference. The parties involved in those fights were supposed to be well-practiced and refined and so their fighting styles reflected that. I never found any of them thrilling though. All I saw was ‘position 1’, position 2’ and so on. I wasn’t exactly enthralled with this fight either though for different reasons. Those clips are too funny. The seams are comically apparent.
     
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  8. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    LOL, you know what? I can't even dispute any of this. Just in the instance of transparency, I disliked this movie intensely, but thought the throne room battle was probably one of the best scenes in the movie (by design) but your analysis is spot on. I will also echo your thoughts that if people still liked the throne room scene that I don't have a problem with that, seeing it real time the first time, it's unlikely that your eye is going to track these problems... but then... it's unlikely your eyes were going to track choreography issues in the PT fight scenes (which I know I am in the minority in enjoying). So I won't take a swipe at TLJ over the choreography issues, but your point is well taken, they are there (and there are probably some in every action sequence of every movie if we go over them fine tooth comb).
     
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Maybe that's why they're the same color as the background. So we don't notice. Like how stage hands wear all black?
     
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  10. Mike

    Mike Rebel General

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    Yes, I planned on writing more in that original post and forgot. Thank You for reminding me.

    In almost any fight scene in modern movies, they are not meant to slow down and view frame by frame, or to be dissected into animated gifs. I did kind of wrestle with myself if I really wanted to post my thoughts because I didn't want to take away from others enjoyment. However, I love the Prequels and will defend them when I see unfair criticism.

    So it did bug me that others were using this fight to bash the Prequels when in fact, many of the complaints that were being used against the Prequels are in this fight. So if people are going to dissect the Prequels with gifs and such, than I felt it needed to be pointed out.
     
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  11. ReyErso5280

    ReyErso5280 Rebel General

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    As someone who loved this fight I DO completely agree about the reveal. They didn’t need to show it turning or the first finger shot. It would have worked after the stab through and the low angle one shot of kylos bringing it to Rey. So I completely agree

    I think they needed to push the camera in slightly more in this wide shot. I can appreciate as an editor why you want to show all the action in the wide. But they needed to put the camera in just a little more so we didn’t see the guards dance off or wait to attack.

    Again even I noticed the 3 dancing off on the left but I think once Rey and kylo separated then it felt better to me.

    In terms of the prequels it was never the choreography for me, I mean that darth maul dual (hell yeah!) it was more the emotion behind it. But one could argue they were proper Jedi so they had that control over their emotions where our new protagonists aren’t trained for years as Jedi and will be a bit rough. So I see both sides and I do love the prequel fights on their own merits.
     
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  12. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    It's possible, I mean as I'm thinking about it, there are very few melee brawls (where it's many against a few or one) that probably don't suffer from the same issues. It's just that I doubt I would have noticed how comically bad some of those transitions were without those gifs.


    It's a fair counter argument, I don't disagree at all. I may be biased since I liked the fight choreography (and took the stylistic movements to be an indicator of what it was like to be trained as a Jedi for many years). I do think that any melee battle that has many vs few, you will always have certain elements (like the bad guys seeming to wait their turn, clashes were multiple bad guys are stymied with one move by the good guy, etc.) so even though I didn't like TLJ this isn't a criticism I would levy against the movie since I think it exists in all movies, but your counter point was excellently done.
     
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  13. ReyErso5280

    ReyErso5280 Rebel General

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    This may be slightly off topic and weird since I’m not a MOD but it’s been really refreshing this thread. We have had several wonderful point and counter point debates and everyone has been respectful and civil. Sometimes it’s been hard when you hear (read) things like “oh well you’re not a true fan then” or things to that effect. So it’s been lovely and I don’t mean this patronising in anyway, I just know passions have been very strong the last three months and I was worried would we always be divided but this thread shows me that nope at end of day we still all love Star Wars

    Ok I’m done being a sentimental old fool xxx
     
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  14. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    I've been watching this scene a lot the past couple of days. It's truely one of my all time favorite Star Wars moments. Everything about this scene is setup perfectly. Snoke's hubris is at a fever pitch. Ben knows that Snoke is in his mind so he masks it with the moves of his own lightsaber.

    Even at the end where Hux reaches for his blaster before Kylo wakes up is great. There's so many small things in this film that are great.
     
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  15. Falcon

    Falcon Rebelscum

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    I wish I hadn't seen the following:

    Not a big deal, really, but whenever I watch the film, this error will now stand out. It's similar to Eomer's sword falling out of his sheath in Lord of the Rings.

    Please be careful - you cannot un-see it. (blue)

     
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  16. Gin Erso

    Gin Erso Rebel Trooper

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    It struck me while watching that Rey and Kylo were brawling, and the guards hindered by some kind of code of honour and style of fighting.
     
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  17. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Yeah, I saw that the other day. Pretty interesting continuity error, but in something as frantic as the Throne Room fight it's pretty easy to overlook for the average audience member.
     
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  18. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

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    You'er right, but then i remembered flying princess Leia then became depressed again.
     
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  19. kilowatt

    kilowatt Rebel Trooper

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    did not really likes the throne room scene. IT felt too much like return's throne room scene. I also have a few questions which have bothered me about that scene. First, why did none of the guard checked on Snoke? Surely as bodyguards, their first instinct would be to check on their fallen master. Secondly, why did they decide to attack Kylo? Surely with the death of Snoke, Kylo is the new FO leader. Third, why did Kylo makes no attempt to convince them to join him? Their master is dead and Kylo is the new leader so why not join him. Plus why did none of the guard have a firing weapon such as a gun?
    Now here is how I would have preferred the scene to go down. Kylo killed Snoke, The guard rush to form a perimeter around their fallen Master, drawing their weapon. One of them checked to make sure that Snoke is really dead, after all, he is a powerful force user so it could have been a trick. Once they established that he is dead they turn toward Kylo and one of them, their leader maybe, asked him why he has killed his master. Maybe he could take off his mask and we get an idea how the guard looks. Are they aliens or human or maybe droid. Would have been interesting if they were droids. Even more interesting would have been if they were the mysterious Knight of Ren. Then Kylo gives a speech to justify himself and try to convince them to serve him. The rest could play out the same way in that they attack Kylo and Rey or maybe he convinces one or two to join him. But the scene would still end up with only Kylo and Rey surviving.
     
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  20. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    He was cut in half. Check was not necessary.
     
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