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Begun, the Twitter Backlash has

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by JayBiggS, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I was just referring to the "Star Wars Romance" post. I wasn't aware there was something else.
     
  2. Lylo Ren

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    John got flack for making a sexual comment about Rey and Finn now that Kylo's gone. He couldn't take the heat, so he had to deflect to the reylos. Look up what "laying the pipe" means and know he said Finn could do that to Rey now.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2020 ---
    I liked John previously, but lost a lot of respect for him due to his behavior last week.
     
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  3. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    The people making death threats on Twitter over TRoS are the one making clowns of themselves. Would that be John or Reylos doing that?

    John got flack FROM the Reylos, he didn't deflect to them, he responded TO them. It's hard for me to take outrage over sexual innuendo involving Rey seriously when there is SO much fan fiction already freely available on the internet involving Kylo and Rey that is FAR more suggestive and crude which elicits NO protest.
     
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  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i want to preface this observation about what happened with John Boyega by saying two things:

    1. people are too sensitive/take everything too personally.
    2. people should be nicer to each other. period.​

    the Boyega incident was the last thing i saw on Twitter before signing off permanently on the first of the new year.
    it started with a crude comment which fans (of Boyega, who also happened to be reylos) called him out for.
    he said it was a joke, he was told it wasn't a funny joke, and from there things melted down.

    instead of just leaving it at that, Boyega doubled-down by saying he was talking about a fictional character.

    @Rayjefury is right. people say nasty things about the characters all the time. i certainly muted a number of fans who have behaved this way.
    however, generally this crudeness is relegated to fansites or fanaccounts, which are spaces desginated for that kind of behavior (otherwise they absolutely would receive the same backlash). there's a reason why people poop in the bathroom, not in the kitchen.
    Boyega is a celebrity with tens of thousands of followers and he pooped on the sidewalk.

    now, at this point, there was still time to take a hard left and just leave it as a joke in poor taste: everyone needs to get over it.
    but Boyega, obviously frustrated, called one fan whose post wasn't even inflammatory an idiot (not very cool), and then posted a slap in the face to the reylo community at large by mocking them directly as a group (bad timing, too, since this is a community that is very defensive right now).
    at this point, it's not even about what triggered the conversation; it's about the behavior overall.

    these were not people who were attacking Boyega as some sort of plot against him.
    these were fans--his own fans--who were appalled by something he said, then appalled by how he reacted to being told it wasn't nice.
    ultimately, the spite you put out on twitter will come back at you a hundredfold.
    Boyega had several times diffused similar fan upsets in the last three or four months (most recently over his remarks about Kelly Marie Tran).
    this time he chose not to be kind or empathetic.

    a similar incident happened literally days before the Boyega incident with Joonas Suotamo: https://movieweb.com/star-wars-9-haters-joonas-suotamo-twitter-chewbacca/. this didn't "blow up" and it didn't trend because Suotamo didn't let it escalate. he said what he said and let it lie. he didn't attack anyone, he didn't make it personal.

    in the Boyega case, everyone made it personal.
    there are no winners here. no heroes. just people acting and reacting badly. : o p



    tl;dr: see points 1.) and 2.) above. rinse. repeat.

    p.s. i keep hearing about death threats from reylos but i've only ever seen one "die!" tweet from a reylo actually directed at someone.
    if anyone has actual evidence of tweets, i'd be interested to see them. even though i have quit twitter, i still find it phenomenally interesting.
     
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  5. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    Where did I say that I support death threats or fan fiction? Oh, that's right, nowhere.

    John's still a clown at the end of the day; there are many different types.
     
  6. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    So I want to respond to this post, and I'm going to do my best to "round off the edges" as a pre-emptive act of diplomacy, because I think you offered your take in good faith. But I think it invites a detailed push back (which I hope will be received as having been composed in good faith as well).

    I think contextually it is important to note that Boyega has been the recipient of a relentless flood of unjustified critiques, nit picks, and outright attacks going on 5 years now. It's been exhausting confronting them on the internet as a casual fan, I can only imagine what it's been having received them directly. And he has no doubt been asked to/required to observe forbearance that those attacking him have not earned, not warranted, and not reciprocated. It is very easy for me to identify with John's position because it is a lived experience for many. Having microagressions piled upon you, not having those microagressions recognized or acknowledged, and then simultaneously being tasked with showing a supernatural restraint that is not required of nor exercised by those attacking you. It is exhausting.

    And I think some of us in the fandom have attempted to be his voice, when he couldn't express himself freely because, we get it.

    Reylos (and really anyone) are free to challenge Boyega (or anyone else for that matter) over jokes, but it is a matter of opinion that it was or wasn't funny. It wasn't funny to many Reylos but they don't get to speak for ALL fandom. There were plenty of us who weren't offended, weren't appalled, weren't insulted, and the notion that Boyega should have genuflected one more time because of the emotional fragility of some of the Reylos? It could be very easily (and likely would be) interpreted as indulging narcissism.

    You may see it as Boyega doubling down, and failing to "bend the knee" to Reylo rage, many of us saw it as a defiant and long overdue critique at a segment of the fandom having an adult tantrum. We don't see Boyega melting down, we seeing him pushing back and refusing to be bullied by bad faith actors in the fandom attacking through proxy arguments. And I seem to recall when Rian Johnson was lauded by some for fighting back on Twitter against a different segment of the fandom following their criticism of TLJ. I do not recall seeing it framed as Rian pooping in the middle of the street (to be fair, perhaps some did and I just didn't see it, selection bias can happen to anyone)

    And here we agree, it is about the behavior. We just don't agree on whose behavior is really the linchpin of the problems. It's almost as though your rebuffing John for antagonizing the mob, and I'm saying, "isn't the fact that there's a mob" the actual issue? I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, I can see you are choosing to characterize it as people being defensive. They looked like they were definitively on offense to me and took umbrage that Boyega responded in kind instead of prioritizing their collective injured pysche.

    So a couple things here. Regardless as to why they were attacking him, I think the major takeaway here in this passage (and in the general conversation) is that they were attacking. This is an instance where the "what" matters more than the "why" (at least IMO). I do question whether we can assert with confidence that the people in question, critiquing Boyega were his own fans. That is certainly up for debate (and I think I'd probably win it, if I argued that they weren't). But overall I think it says alot and says the wrong thing to put the onus on John here to be the lone adult in the room. It's not the job of individual Reylos to act responsibly and maturely, it's John's job to self censor his real life in order to cater to their feelings? That's probably not the right messaging here, and I think some are arguing this (you specifically may not, but I have followed this on social media for awhile and a few other SW platforms, it is out there).

    Yeah and I would argue that (like many of us) he's tired of it and is no longer under the artificial constraints imposed upon him by his contractual obligation to Disney and LFL. His KMT comments could have been taken out of context and so he felt obligated to clarify (I would have too). I don't think the joke was taken out of context, it just wasn't liked by some fans, and honestly... too bad. I mean what people keep calling crude is a euphemism. Is that the low water mark now for offense? Employing a euphemism for "having sex", that's the unforgivable insult? I'm guessing not, I'm guessing it's more about the implication of who would be having the sex that was the problem, and I can leverage no sympathy towards it. Seems like John is about out of sympathy in that regard as well so I count myself in good company. Folks don't want to have the conversation about the racial component of that backlash, it's fine. They just need to understand they aren't going to advance it under a different banner and not be called out for it.

    To which I would counter:
    1. Joonas Suotamo hasn't been attacked for the past 5 years simply for existing.
    2. Joonas made his comments a day after the official premier, I'm going to hazard a guess that he was encouraged by LFL and the Mouse to cool it so as to not to creative a controversy and disrupt the first weekend's numbers. And Joonas comment was made in response to a critique on-line, John was responding to someone else's joke on a New Years eve post he made. Not really the same things (IMO).

    The same guy that captured the Joonas exchange, documented the Reylo comments.




    So again, I'll reiterate this was composed in good faith. I do not agree with your position but I'm not trying or intend to attack you. But I thought your comments warranted a detailed reply.
     
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  7. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    Thank you for this post, because you've hit the nail right on the head.

    I really liked John and his behavior was 100 percent disappointing.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 7, 2020 ---
    Do you realize that most reylos liked John previously?
     
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  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    hey, i'm all for a different perspective. as a reminder, my twitter is highly curated, so i don't see everything all the time.
    i just have a bird's eye view and these are my observations.

    i can absolutely appreciate this and i think it's what's driving the whole interaction, frankly.
    you have a marginalized actor and an entire marginalized fangroup coming to loggerheads here.
    they are tired of being put upon throughout this whole ST experience (and they are carrying loads of baggage from before coming into the fandom), and while i cannot speak for Boyega, i think it's safe for us to assume he's had it his whole life too. again, this is why it's so critical for people to be empathetic.

    i'd be careful about describing in any case an assertion that 1.) reylos are emotionally fragile, and 2.) that the expectation is that Boyega should genuflect. you're right: lots of people went right by this, laughed at it, or didn't think about it all.
    again, the point is that some subgroup of those fans were offended, expressed offense (which you agree they are free to do), and Boyega made choices about how to respond to that which were not generous. there's no "requirement" for him to be generous. at all.
    but again, what you put out on twitter is going to come back to you. and if he was going to take offense to their offense, the whole thing becomes locked into an escalation and what does that serve?

    again, no one asked him to bend a knee. people asked him to read the room. the "bad faith" actors you are referring to (and who absolutely exist) are the dogpilers who came in after the fact because the fire was lit. Boyega took a swing at reylos and it got ugly. which is what happens when you take a swing, period.

    at the risk of taking this into a very challenging place, the poop that Rian Johnson made, did not begin at a place of perceived misogyny. it began with him calling out toxic fans for attacking others. those are two very different things. both ended up in terrible places for everyone involved. but i think it's too easy to gloss over the disappointment of fans feeling marginalized or affronted not for their fandom, but for their gender, and then being marginalized for being in the fandom on top of that. again, while i appreciate Boyega's frustration, he leapt straight at a statement that could be further perceived as saying "reylos" are bad fans (in fact maybe even bad people) rather than bothering to think about why they were upset. and i'll emphasize: that's a choice and it's his to make. just as people have a choice to be disappointed with that and think it's uncool.

    no, i'm saying that someone struck a match and then everyone threw gas on the fire. i'm not ascribing blame in any way. i am saying that all partys are too sensitive and too quick to go straight to the fight. he literally could have de-escalated it by not provoking them. i don't know and can't speculate what his thinking was; maybe he thought he was being funny and it would ease the tension or maybe he was trying to call out the silliness of getting this upset about a movie. but i do question the decision to deliberately hurt people who are already upset. and i ask you: why do that?

    i do see it as absolutely defensive on both sides. the reylos started out defending women against being treated as objects, and then became defensive about protecting their fandom. Boyega defended himself, and then defended his right to make crude jokes and his right to tease and/or insult fandoms as he sees fit? that's literally a question because again, i don't understand his motivation here. and i welcome any perspective anyone has on it.

    here's where i am going to push a little back on you. and again, i left the conversation as it was spiraling, so i don't know how much dogpiling ended up happening. but the people who originally expressed dismay at Boyega's comments, the poster who was called "idiot", and many of the fans who were involved in the initial confrontation absolutely were fans, were followers, were supporters.

    it is definitely not my stance that Boyega is the only one who needs to be an adult. but the reylos also can't control the mob and that's an unrealistic expectation. they are a body of individuals, many of whom try to adhere to a particular "code" (for lack of a better word), but there is a fringe and unstable aspect to the "movement" (also for lack of a better word) that answers to no one. they, those people, need to work on their own communication and interaction skills. just like everyone else.

    as i mentioned before, Boyega had, up until this incident, had such a great rapport with the fans and i feel bad that this damaged it. and i feel bad that reylos are being likewise blamed as if they orchestrated some assault for the purpose of tearing anyone down. as i said in my previous post, there are no winners here. when these things go bad like this, everyone loses. : o (

    i absolutely agree with your first post, not with your second.
    the reason i brought this up is not because the cause is the same, i brought it up because the Suotamo incident involves a comparably volatile faction of fandom, which he defused by not engaging or reacting or, again, making it personal.

    thank you: this is the set of posts that's making the rounds and i've seen it.

    there is literally only one tweet in this collection that is copied to JJ Abrams that is an actually "kill you" threat (as opposed to the death threats catalogued against Johnson (though it's definitely not a competition and i'm sure Boyega has received his share too).
    the rest is just frustrated people screaming into the void. i don't consider people just saying f-you to be making death threats. it's all ugly, but let's be real about what constitutes an actual threat and what's just people being nasty cussfaces.
    also, just for the record, just at a glance, there's at least one tweet from someone who is saying "f-you" because Rey and Ben kissed, definitely not a reylo. : o p

    edit: in that same twitter thread:

    Screen Shot 2020-01-07 at 4.16.16 PM.png

    for what it's worth, i know the reylo community reasonably well and i don't recognize any of these people either. but it's a big world. also, there exists, again, fringe reylos who are pretty over the top. also, very few of these people have reylo references in their usernames, which, take as you will, is kinda suspect? (see also, below)

    not saying these aren't legit freaks being horrible people. but i am saying these are not the people who were engaged in the conversation with Boyega (again, for whatever that's worth). : o [

    i appreciate the detailed reply. we probably won't see eye to eye on this, but i hope it's clear that i am not laying blame on anyone here as "instigator" . i'm saying people in general are reacting strongly and then reacting to the reactions, and that creates this kind of storm of anger and frustration. people need to be less sensitive and people need to be more kind. if either side had done those things, this would not have happened.


    addendum:

    i quickly went through the twitter posts that were compiled to get a clearer sense of what they are.

    the blue boxes are marked as reasonably certain to be actual reylos. everything in white is up for debate. this is not scientific, i looked at their profile pictures, their names, their name descriptions,, who they were replying to, and what they said. some of these people may just be Bendemptionists, but i'm giving it the benefit of the doubt that they probably cross the Bendemption/Reylo line.

    the x's are repeat posts, so irrelevant.

    the black boxes are actual threats directed at JJ Abrams. one is an actual death threat, the other is a warning "watch out!" the rest are a litany of f-yous and you ruined my life and that sort of thing. there are lots of i'm gonna kill so and so, but they aren't tagging the person and therefore, i don't consider them credible (though do consider them toxic). actually most of this is toxic.

    i forgot to mark the one post that is definitely not from a reylo. other ones that are white are not discernible.

    tale of the tape:

    from the first set of posts:

    20 out of 40 posters here are reasonably certain reylos
    3 are neither threats, cussing, or otherwise. just people expressing sadness/disappointment.
    2 are threats. 1 is from a reasonably certain reylo, 1 is from an indiscernible poster.
    probably all of them need to consider a healthier outlet for their emotional well-being. : o p​

    as for the second set of posts, they aren't even threats. it's just a very telling post making fun of people who are upset and expressing that in their own private space in their own way. it's beneath anybody with any scruple, honestly. disgusting. : o p

    Screen Shot 2020-01-07 at 5.48.35 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2020-01-07 at 5.48.42 PM.png

    Screen Shot 2020-01-07 at 5.48.50 PM.png

    final notes:

    about the people who compiled this list (and this is just an interesting point of fact): they belong to the self-avowed fandom menace, they literally "hail" allegiance to a poster named Doomcock who leads what's essentially a cult of disgruntled anti-Disney, anti-"SJW" fans, and who have, over the last four years harrassed and badgered much of the rest of fandom.

    the reylo fandom is pretty legion (in the tens of the thousands). 20 posts is nothing. 40 posts is nothing. i don't excuse these people's behavior at all. but they are not representative of the fandom at large. any more than Doomcock's legion is representative of the the global Star Wars fandom.

    while i think it's interesting to talk about these mobs/cults/fandoms, my point is that there are people--individual people. like Boyega and the woman he called "idiot". either side dragging in, mischaracterizing, or misrepresenting an entire fandom ~ all of that is wrong. and all of it could have been avoided. : o p

    p.s. sorry for the enormity of this. XD
     
    #48 FN-3263827, Jan 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
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  9. Buckeye94

    Buckeye94 Rebel General

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    I'm not going to dive into who I think is right or wrong in JB's Twitter spat, but I find the pearl clutching and being offended over his "laying the pipe" comment absurd considering the vile, perverted, disgusting comments made about Kylo and Rey the last four years on social media by the vast majority of that group. Not to mention the repulsive "works of art" that I've had the unfortunate luck of stumbling upon. It's just sickening and degrading, but John's off the cuff the comment is crossing some sacred line? Right...

    I hope all of this dies down soon. I understand people are upset about the movie, but come on.
     
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  10. Lylo Ren

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    "vast majority" is definite stereotyping and the content you're referencing isn't embraced by all of the community. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's the truth.
     
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  11. Buckeye94

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    Bubble not burst, I don't care enough to be upset or have my bubble burst. I'm going by the evidence and the behavior I've seen and that tells me that the majority share the same mindset. If there's a kinder, gentler group out there, then they are in hiding or only post here.
     
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  12. KyloRen1981

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    I find it strange that in both the Daisy Ridley "what privilege?" situation, and in this one with Boyega, that the backlash was so sparsely covered it took me over a week to even hear about it. Seems like the media definitely protects certain types of people while others would get raked over coals with major media coverage for the same actions.
     
  13. Lylo Ren

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    You are woefully unaware of that subgroup of fans, I have to tell you. Not sure where you've come across the stuff you're talking about, but I feel like I'd have to seek that out if I wanted to see it. I'm not into fan fiction nor NSFW materials of fictional characters and the people I interact with regularly mostly don't seem to be, either.

    Most reylos just liked the pairing and supported it coming to fruition, which it did. How awful, indeed.
     
  14. Buckeye94

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    It makes me no difference who you ship, have fun with that and I'm going to take your word that you're not all over the top and pervy. Do you really not know how easy it is to see disturbing behavior by Reylos? I think you could probably just look on the official Star Wars Twitter page and see them spamming the account with craziness. Look in the comments of any post on SW Twitter page and it's loaded with angry comments and threats by them. I don't know what they think they're going to accomplish with this behavior. I don't like the Reylo ship, but I don't think you are awful for supporting it. I'm just having a hard time believing that the majority of their fans are nice people who just wanted a good love story. I won't interact with any of them on Twitter because, frankly, they scare me. This is the only place I've talked to any Reylo shippers and the ones that post on here are reasonable for the most part.
     
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  15. Lylo Ren

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    Yeah, after this post, I'm done talking to you, to be frank about it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 10, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 10, 2020 ---
    There's really no more to be said when someone is dead set on stereotyping an entire group by a small faction of said group that behaves badly.
     
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  16. Shadowblade

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    801BA5A6-836A-47E0-99F2-FF5C0F2BE82F.jpeg

    Not a death threat, but did hear about those. Anyways, did capture this, showing what he got from some Reylo’s.
     
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  17. oldbert

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    Woah. I am a lucky man who didn't use Twitter beside reading some tweets accidentally every now and then. Reading through this thread tells me that I have no need to ever start with it.
    There are so much things online and in the crazy space of the www that I don't need at all.
    #RealLifeis beautiful :D
     
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    Stay away from social media as it’s an utter cesspool that 95% of the people use wrong. Facebook is a great tool to connect with friends/family who live far away yet my timeline is littered with what someone has for dinner last night. Lol. Twitter is a great place to get breaking news and links to subjects you care about, yet my timeline is filled with people’s sarcasm and bad attempts at humor regarding politics, sports, pop culture. And don’t get me started on Instagram as it’s the biggest ‘look at me’ social media site. YouTubers are an utter joke that just want clicks. I deleted my Facebook and Instagram account and only still go on Twitter while only following specific people these days. Honestly it’s the worst thing to happen to our society.
     
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  19. Noen

    Noen Guest

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    There are millions (literally) of Star Wars fans. Even if one takes 10.000 tweets, and finds 1.000 lunatics, than all that he has is a small sample. As a mathematician, I would love to see :
    - The population size
    - The sample size
    - The induction methodology used
    - The interpretation of the results

    The burden of proof falls to the accuser. If someone wants to generalize from 1.000 racists Star Wars fans to the totality of the fandom, then he has to prove that the sample size and all the succeeding steps are proper. I don't have to prove, that the accuser's claim is false. He has to prove he is right. This is fundamental, not only in logic, but how we all operate on a daily basis.

    I would be more than glad, to read any well structured case. Haven't seen any yet, and as a result I won't accept nor even contemplate that fandom is characterized by such behaviors.

    If someone thinks this is hardcore, we can have a conversation, on what will happen if we discard the burden of proof principle.

    (Edit: Added the word such at the end of the second paragraph).
     
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  20. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I think this argument is an Episode too late. It's not that sample size and population are irrelevant, it's that these same arguments should have been applied when the protestations were about TLJ. But far too often, broad, sweeping generalizations were used to criminalize all criticism. If a fan said or did something stupid in criticizing Rian Johnson and his movie, the hand of one became the hand of all. All people who disliked TLJ shared in the sin. To this day, we have no idea how many people engaged with KMT on Social Media that preceded her departure. But that did not stop people from weaponizing her story, and other cherry picked instances that lacked quantification, to create a macro narrative under which virtually all critique of TLJ was deemed the digital tantrums of a toxic fandom.

    So again, I don't think there's an issue with the math, I think the issue's going to be timing. It's too late to say, "now the rules apply". People made this bed long ago, and folks are going to have to lie in it (statistically justified or not).
     
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