SPECULATION Ben's Redemption

She didn't really whip him silly. That's like saying Luke was beating Vader for a bit on Bespin.
He never intended to kill. He was trying to subdue her. To bring her to Snoke.

He didn't give it his all. She did.

 

it doesn't matter what his intention was (and yes i agree he wasn't hardly trying). she still dropped him like a rock.
he played with Finn too, but when playtime was over, he trashed the poor guy.
Rey never gave him a chance to even recognize his own peril. he just went down, down, and down.

that's her determination as much as his giving up. she made him give up. doesn't matter how she made him do it, he did it.
i call that whipped silly. because it's not just a physical victory, it's a total psychological/emotional victory as well.

Vader whipped Luke silly on Bespin. that's the comparison.

 

*Kylo trying out his romantic advances on Rey*

Kylo: Hey Rey, I'm Ben Solo. Do you happen to be solo too, if you know what I mean?



Rey: GET AWAY FROM ME YOU CREEP!

Kylo:

​

Well, hopefully he doesn't take rejection too badly.

 

He may have done exactly that...

What we saw Kylo do contrasted heavily with the bruises/screams from Poe's interrogation and I'm yet to hear the same term utilised with that scene. Some say the scene is more akin to "Kylo reading her personal diary in front of her while she has a headache" than "rapey". After all she is undergoinging an enemy interrogation as a POW...

Speaking of differing views...

Between Pastor's "surprise" and 3263827's "curious" we can find some consensus with TPTB...

Good point. The big exception is the blocking at the beginning of her interrogation scene where Kylo crouches in the shadows and appears captivated by Rey/the light.



From bodylanguage through to physical and metaphysical use of force, Kylo is depicted trying to utilse power over Rey. The irony is that the blocking and body language is part of an illusion and the real power lies elsewhere.

Rey ends up usurping every attempt by Kylo to control and dominate her and they all become important lessons for Kylo to learn - whether they serve to cement a dark future or fertilize ground already prepared for a heel-faced-turn.

I can't imagine it either.

To inoculate myself for any wildly divergent plot turns, I plan on undergoing a rigorous, self-brainwashing regime designed to severly nulllify any presumptions and expectations before viewing the remaining ST films! The aim is to try to get a couple of "so open-minded my brain's in danger of falling out" viewings in before my prejudices and critical faculties jump into their usual high gear.

 

Personally, I see his redemption and down fall within moments of one another, we look over the history of SW, we see many villains find the light and meet their demise.

My thoughts are, he will be in a final battle where himself Luke, Rey, Snoke and Kylo might be in a final tangle (perphas luke is not present) Kylo after finally fighting his draw to the darkness. Attacks Snoke, ultimately saving Rey, allowing her the time to defeat him. Unfortunately in his brave effort he is gravely wounded and would ultimately die.

Just a thought anyways hehe

 

Poe screams because - I think - Kylo can dig his mind.
Rey resists.

Very well said. But still we cannot deny: he did try to control and dominate her. He failed, but he did try.

About different point of view...

TFA Novel:
"...I should be the one who should be scared. You shot first.
You speak of the Order as if it were barbaric.
And yet, it is I who was forced to defend myself against you."

The way I see this and other lines - such as "you're my guest" (etc..) - is that he's just trying to be manipulative.
In fact manipulation is something "expected" in an interrogation.
It is something you use because that's exactly the key to success in dominating someone else not only physically but psychologically.

And as said, in the end, he fails. But again he did try.

That being said, I'm sure Kylo will be redeemed.
I hope he will survive, more than anything because of Leia.
She deserves it.

But to understand how, what the dynamic will be... I guess we have to know first why he did turn.

 

Damn! That would be good.

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2017, Original Post Date: May 7, 2017 ---

My ultimate hope is for Force Ghost Anakin or Force Ghost Darth to sway him somehow through visions. Or for Snoke to kill off Leia prior to Kylo ever seeing her devastating him into a tizzy.

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2017 ---

And even though deep down I want Rey and Ben to be related via Skywalker blood. There could be something to be said for having a foe overcome you that makes you drastically change, and become suddenly obsessed or in love with that now once foe.

 

it's weird, but i see the Kylo/Rey scenes very differently from most people... to the point that i think i must be wrong.

firstly, look how he's carrying her..

he could have dropped her at the nearest storm trooper. I didn't see the bad guy detaining an enemy for questioning.. it was something else.


then we have the start of the interrogation..

maybe it's me... but i see Kylo kneeling to make sure that he doesn't scare Rey. Sure he does eventually try to take information from Rey... but this scene wasn't about Ren finding Luke's location.

at no point in TFA did i see an interrogation or a fight between these 2. Kylo's first instinct both times they met was to knock her out using the force.

a couple of times during TFA we get a taste of what Kylo is capable of... freezing both Poe and his blaster bolt at the same time, and then later when he does this..


injury or not at the end... does anyone really think this dude got bested by Rey? he was never fighting her.

 

Exactly! A lot of people seem to forget that Kylo didn't want to kill Rey. He wanted her to join him. "Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as..."

 

Even if we grant this it doesn't suggest this tenderness or benevolent relationship. Sheve wanted to rule with Vader. Vader wanted to rule with Padme and then Luke. Its suggesting that he wants given her power to exploit or other aspects he wants to use in a possessive sense in a system where he is absolute.

To see romance here you have to change the way the same words were used by past villains to mean different things.

I found the events after killing Han for Kylo to be very similar to what we saw from Anakin in the hours after his fall. Intense emotion, delusions of grandeur, offer to rule the galaxy.

 

Sigh.

This is something I keep seeing and it's starting to cheese me off, no offence @Pastor Barndog.

As far as I know, most "ReyLo" (God, that word needs to die in a rubbish fire) fans don't claim that there is any existing romance between Kylo Ren and Rey. Not at this moment. Not in the past.
Kylo DOES NOT like/love/want Rey. And his words "You need a teacher" are not indicative of any of those emotions. He feels COMPASSION. He sees himself in her and feels a deeper connection to this scavenger girl for whatever reason. Both of these particular emotions are repeatedly underlined in both the movie and the books so don't come for me.

Rey DOES NOT like/love/want Kylo at this point. She's both terrified of and intrigued by him. She too feels a deeper connection but it's not well defined at all.

Nobody thinks that there's a romance happening right now. What any Reylo (FLUGZEUG) worth their salt will tell you is that these words are indicative of a future romance. Especially in a male-female context. It's a trope that is ages old.
A powerful male who desires a female will tempt her to his side with the promise of knowledge. Just take Phantom of the Opera for an example. The Phantom offers Christine singing lessons in exchange for her presence in his life. Her friendship and her love.

I'd also like to add that Rey is in no way a passive participant in this. She is the ingredient that completely subverts the trope. She refuses him and yet she doesn't strike him down. She has the opportunity and a solid reason. She could and WANTS to kill him. And. Yet. She. Doesn't. In addition, she steals knowledge from him as he attempts to read her mind. She repeatedly turns the table on him. He tries to get the upper hand but fails. She is in power.

This is not a benevolent relationship by any means. I doubt it will ever be. By the very virtue of their alliances, their's will be a contentious relationship, regardless of it's actual nature.

 

It's interesting to speculate on Kylo's arc possibilities. He's clearly conflicted about his choices, retains some compassion, and acts like someone convinced in doing what's right/needed. He seems sure the ends justify his means.

If this character is to undergo some kind of redemption arc I would imagine the general audience would need:

(1) good reason for his seduction and his antagonism toward his father, LST, Luke, the Resistance, the Jedi, and the Light
e.g. lore, prophecy, misinformation, revelation. Whatever their reasons, Luke appears to shares his conclusion: Kylo appears to want to end the Jedi, Luke appears to think it's time for the Jedi to end.

(2) plausible deniability for his involvement in atrocities
e.g. misinformation, limited involvement etc. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a bait and switch with the rogue "student", if Ben had unwittingly doomed/informed on the academy, or it turns out Luke bears responsibility for some negligence regarding his academy and FO wishes/warnings/threats.

(3) believable opportunity and motivation to embrace the light.
e.g. maybe new information that calls into question cherished beliefs coupled with inspiration to pursue good (Rey?)

 

For me Kylo would have to have been completely mind tricked and constantly under mental force persuasion for him to be redeemed. He has gone to far for forgiveness. In other words...his entire dark side stent has not really been him.

Kylo Ren is not even scary character. He seems just a messed up dude. Vader was scary. Still is.

 

I don’t buy into the argument that Kylo Ren cannot be redeemed. His redemption is certainly still possible if done right. I mean if Darth Vader can be redeemed, then I don't see why Ben Solo can't be. Darth Vader killed Obi Wan, Biggs, Mace Windu, the Younglings, hundreds of other Jedis, thousands of rebels, and numerous other people. He also tortured Leia in ANH and Han in ESB, and he apparently had no qualms with attempting to kill Luke in ROTJ before he was ultimately redeemed.

Yes, killing Han Solo was a heinous act but in the grand scheme of things it was not worse than what Vader did, it only feels worse because it was recent and the fact that Han Solo is one of the most beloved characters in Star Wars. The novelization of TFA also hints at Ben's regret over killing Han, that it had the reverse effect on him. Instead of strengthening him, it weakened him for his battle with Rey and Finn. If anything, I believe that he will be haunted by this act in TLJ and that will aid in his redemption. Now if he kills Leia in The Last Jedi or Episode IX then he is definitely irredeemable.

I also believe that Rey will be instrumental in his redemption and that he can only be redeemed by her. Even if Ben isn't interested in Rey romantically, he is drawn to her even to his own detriment. He clearly isn't trying to kill her in their fight as has been discussed numerous times and he even goes so far as to offer to teach her the ways of the Force while he is fighting her. He was appeared calmer around her even during their fight and he was less violent with her, opting to knock her out rather than kill her. Granted all of this could have been a ploy but I believe it was genuine.

 

Not trying to cheese you off. No offense taken.

I have a better view of your position but others seem to be full on romance.

That said I don't see compassion any more than I see romance.

 

It's about degrees of compassion. Other "Sith" wouldn't have treated Rey as Ren did, I imagine. He went to pains to avoid her feeling much discomfort. He carried her to his ship. He comforted her that any pain she would feel that he would feel it too - and not to worry.

The point isn't that he showed any explicit acts of compassion but that there was compassion within him for her that stopped him acting how Snoke wanted him to. This is explained more so in the novel as Snoke explicitly mentions Ren's compassion and makes it clear that this is his weakness. It is why Snoke told Ren to bring the girl to him - he didn't trust Ren to do the job.

So there is compassion there. But of course, no romance yet to speak of. Though like I say, I'm sure Ren isn't blind to Rey's attractiveness.

 

he openly admits to feeling 'the pull to the light'. I wonder if Ben's redemption might actually play out with Kylo 'falling' to the light side instead of the Dark side being pushed away.. if that makes sense?

perhaps, like Anakin where he finally gave in to the dark side pull.... perhaps Ben will simply give in to the light side pull?

 

Anakin became dark and evil by accident. Kylo Ren is seeking it out. It is his goal to become dark and evil. Anakin never had the goal of joining the dark side. Vader's destiny was thrust upon him through manipulation. Kylo is fully aware he is actively trying to be dark and Evil.

There is a huge difference between Vader and Kylo's path into the Dark Side.