SPECULATION Ben's Redemption

Personally I think he is more like a radicalised Muslim. He comes from a good family but has been seduced by Jihadism. Brainwashed. His idea of destiny and politics is in every way married to extremism. He believes his cause is just and his ideology the right one. And he looks upon those who don't share such power as weak and foolish as an Islamist would see "us" as kaffur.

That's what could make THIS Star Wars relevant. It's not about the clear good vs evil battle of the OT but rather the more complicated battle between good and bad ideas that we see in the world today. It's about how we can persuade those who have these extreme ideologies and warped minds to denounce violence and extremism and embrace democracy, secularism and freedom.

Ren could embody this whole theme with Rey being the one to show him that extremism is the path to unhappiness, suffering and ultimately destruction.

 

Well sure but again the Terrorist don't have a genocide beam that can well what is the equivalent of a planet in modern terms? Countries? Cities?
Plus I dislike these analogies....politics is complicated.

And beyond that Redemption doesn't mean a free pass. So I am down for redeeming the average grunt in both cases but Kylo is not a average grunt he is a high ranking official who has personally ordered and committed atrocities.

 

i respect your opinion.

my opinion is that he is a slave, just like everyone else under Snoke.
Snoke sees them all as grunts.

 

An equivalent would be Isis getting hold of a nuclear weapon or Pakistan being taken over by an Islamist coup...though I am not sure why you ask?
And this isn't so much politics as it is ideology. Kylo Ren may try and justify his actions through some pseudo political viewpoint but really this is more about his "religious views" coupled with his inner hatred and anger. The question is how do you get someone like this to question their point of view and walk away from it? This is the battle of the Islamist ideology that we face in the world today. How do you defeat the ideology of the Dark Side or rather whatever faction of the Dark Side Ren is serving? You have to both show the void the Dark Side brings to both the "wider world" but also to "yourself".

I don't think anyone is talking of a free pass - the rule of law must be upheld, he would face punishment. But if the truth of the matter is that he does reject the Dark Side and he does then on act compassionately, then to those willing to accept it and more importantly, to himself, he will be redeemed. And at the end of the day, even when redeemed, he has to live with what he once did. And for a truly "good" person, that I am sure is hell. But no, one good act won't right all his wrongs - as was the case with Vader, where the repercussions of his dark deeds are still felt today. The point is that for the rest of his days Ben Solo would attempt to right as many wrongs as he could and only be a force for good. Is it not better to accept that rather than want him to just be punished for eternity with no possible chance of any good coming from his existence?

It's a very human emotion, revenge. It would be very easy to just desire the destruction of all terrorists. If there were a button that'd destroy them all, I might well just push it! However, there has to be something in the argument that violence breeds violence. Evil begets evil. If you continue the hate, the cycle continues. The better solution is to find out how to stop this particular form of evil, through understanding and compassion. If we can identify the causes of Islamism for example, facing the tough questions and willing to voice perhaps difficult ideas (grey), then we can end that particular cycle of hatred. Likewise, if Rey can identify that which motivates Ren to do evil and show him a better way rather than just destroying him, perhaps the cycle of evil that Vader started and lives on in Ren can end? And perhaps this model can be used to defeat the ideology of the FO which is a continuation of the Empire? Because that is what has happened in this saga - The corrupt Republic became the Empire which became the FO + Anakin became Vader who became Kylo.

I reiterate, this trilogy could or should be about the battle of the mind. The battle of good vs bad ideas. Otherwise, if it is just another all out good vs evil war, the cycle of destruction will continue. The balance of the Force forever remaining in peril...

 

Star Wars is a modern FAIRY TALE, not a modern FABLE. There's an important distinction to be made between the two. Real-world morality does not apply in the galaxy far far away. The movies are based on feel-good endings or the promise of feel-good endings, not moral retribution.

The death of individuals in a movie is only as important as the amount of screen-time that death recieves. The destruction of the Hosnian System got like 5 seconds of the movie run time. This leads me to believe that while the implications of the destruction might be severe for the Resistance, the actual deaths don't matter. There's no emotional weight attached to it and the audience most likely won't remember it in graphic detail when watching TLJ.

If there is any impediment to Ren's redemption, it's Han Solo's death.

 

Ren didn't really have a hand in it either. One could even argue that he was against it.

Or that could further make the point to the audience that it is difficult to forgive and be redeemed but necessary in the long run. The audience would find forgiving the murderer of the best character in Star Wars very difficult. But that for me makes the message all the more better for it. And we have to ask ourselves what Han would've wanted. He died trying to redeem his son. He put his life on the line. That either means something or nothing at all...

 

i suppose it comes down to this..

how much did you love Han Solo?

if you really loved him... then you'd want what he wanted above personal feelings and hatred.
if you really loved him... then you'd love his son as he did.

anything else... you didn't love Han Solo.

 

Well, that is if you're super geeks like us, Maximus, who see these characters as real people!
I think the hatred will more likely come from those who just think Solo is a cool character to have in the films.
Though really, they should be more angry at Ford and JJ than Kylo Ren!

But in all seriousness, yes - if we're talking about redemption of Ben, then people must've lose sight of what Han would've wanted.

 

woah woah woah! are you saying that this didn't actually happen a long time ago?

It all comes down to one moment for me...

Kylo pushes his saber through his father's chest.
If Han had shouted "you evil bastard! burn in hell, you're no son of mine!"... then i perhaps would have been of the opinion that Kylo should die a slow hideous death under a combine harvester.

Han didn't react that way, he threw his last bit of fatherly love at him.

What kind of Han Solo fan would i be to ignore that?
anything short of wanting his son redeemed is spitting on Han's grave.. but that's just my opinion. everyone will see it differently of course.

 

Agree. That's almost how I see it too.
The only difference is that I'd say "how we can persuade those who have these extreme ideologies that warped their minds to give up violence and extremism and embrace democracy, secularism and freedom".
That because - in my eyes - you always have free will.
Bad people can take advantage of your weaknesses, but it's always you in the end that allow them - and bad ideas - to warp your mind.
(And I'm not 100% Ben suffered brainwashing. I guess he was targeted, as Anakin was - see ep. I - and Leia felt it).
And it's always you that have to choose to give up on them.
There's nothing more complicated in life than to admit not just that you've beeng wrong, but that what you believed to be right
(so much so you sacrificed everything to that idea) was wrong.
But I'm afraid these are "philosophical disputes" and one way to see it, is as good as the other one.

However as I've already said here and there before, I guess Kylo will be redeemed and I really hope he will survive.
But regardless how that will be played out, I think it could be a "right" idea for his character arc
if we will get the hint that his new life (post ST) will be dedicated to restore or to found a new Jedi Order.
You know that I don't believe at all in the Gray Jedi stuff.
And I don't believe the Jedi will end.
That's the problem that has to be overcome.
And if Kylo will turn back Ben Solo, that could be a way to "repair" his faults.

 

Found this on tumblr:

"Kylo in the marketing of TFA vs TLJ:



Masked, hooded cowl, clenched fist, his entire body is covered head to toe.



Maskless, his hand is not clenched into a fist.

They are making him look less like a monster and more human. This is not a coincidence, this is the making of the Kylo Ren redemption arc."

 

i've said this a few times.. but there is a reason for the mask, hood, altered voice, new name, red saber, clenched fist etc etc.

it's to give them multiple items to strip away a piece at a time. items for him to... shed if you like.

I'm ready to meet Ben Solo.. i hope the galaxy is !

 

Or now that he has burned a bridge internally he has less to prove.

 

From the official databank:

"But this shocking act of patricide didn’t make the former Ben Solo feel stronger – somehow he felt weaker. Kylo Ren had hoped to end the conflicts that caused him so such pain, but found he remained at war with himself, more lost than ever."

http://www.starwars.com/databank/kylo-ren

JJ Abrams in his commentary of the movie:

"People have asked me if I think that Kylo Ren was just playing with him the whole time, if he meant to kill him from the beginning. And the truth is, I think that Kylo Ren in this moment is actually being convinced to walk away from this. Snoke is, as Han says, using him. And I think that somewhere Ben knows this. But I think that he can’t accept it deep down. He has gone too far.

And as if this moment isn’t disturbing enough, he pushes the saber further in and says these terrifying two words. “Thank You.” In Kylo’s mind, what he has just done seals the deal. It’s the ultimate proof to Snoke that he is to be trusted, that he will not be seduced by the light. And I think, the instant that he’s done it, he regrets it."

 

And he can bury his regret.

He can drop the mask to prove "he doesn't need it."

 

I hope they don't go the redemption route, as we did this with Vader, but it's entirely possible. After all, no one was as evil as Vader, he slaughtered untold numbers of folks without any regret or empathy. If Vader can be redeemed from all the insane stuff he did, then why not Ben?

I would rather Ben stay evil though, I think it adds another tragic layer to the story..

Either way I'm betting this December we will have a much better idea! Then again.. lol

 

That made me tear up.



BRING BEN SOLO HOME.

Grant Han's dying wish. Let Leia die with the knowledge that her son is her's again.

 

The real choker is if his redemption happens in 9 and not 8.

Leia's plea to Han was to bring their son home. If it doesn't happen in 8... nobody will be home when he gets there.

Yep... sucks.

 

Pb : that certainly does not match the movie. TFA clearly shows Kylo Ren can and does disobey Snoke whenever he feeels like it. The prime exemple comes with Hux/Ren exchange early in the movie :

Hux : Supreme Leader Snoke was explicit: capture the droid if we can, but destroy it if we must. (...)
Ren : your men should have no problem retrieving the droid ... Unharmed.
Hux : Careful Ren, that your personnel interests not interfere with orders from Leader Snoke.
Kylo Ren : I want that map ! For your sake, i suggest you get it.

This exchange is all but trivial : it clearly shows Ren has no problem overruling Snoke's orders to pursue his own personnal agenda. Worse, not only does Ren first forbid Hux to destroy BB-8, but he also completely neglects its capture once he gets what he wants.

Even more interesting, when Snoke finally learn about his attitude, he does .... absolutely nothing to punish or even just scold Kylo Ren.

Spoiler: If we go a step further...

Then we have to wonder wether Snoke and Ren have the same endgame. It's clear Snoke just want to prevent the Resistance from reaching Luke.
OTOH, Kylo is dead set on getting the map for himself. Most likely, he probably wants to settle some kind of beef with his old master.
If so, then Ren knows Luke is too powerful for him : he can't confront his former master without gaining some power first ... a power only Snoke can provide.

Which in turns begs the question "Who is using who ?"
If Kylo follows Snoke mostly to gain the power he needs to fulfill his own agenda, then what happen once he gets it ?

If we also consider some other elements, like :
_ Snoke being surprinsingly soft with Ren so far (no threats, no punishment for failure or disobedience).
_ Kylo Ren not showing Snoke a tenth of Vader's reverence to the Emperor (no kneeling, no what is thy bidding, my MASTER").
_ we can also question Kylo's intents with Rey. Snoke orders him "Bring her to ME", yet he certainly does NOT tell Rey "Leader Snoke can show you the ways of the Force" ... as if he was trying to keep Rey for himself instead...
_ from what i've heard, the novelization also has Ren flat out rejecting Snok's injonction to join Hux's rally on SKB.

Considering all this, i wouldn't be surprised if Kylo Ren was already planning to get rid of Snoke after getting whatever he wants from him.

And i don't see how murdering another father figure (and a broken old man) would "bring Ben back to the light".

What Han would have wanted is irrelevant, what matters is Kylo's choice(s). The biggest issue here is not wether he deserves our forgiveness or not, but rather will he even try to get it ?
And how many more sacrifices should be made to change his mind ?
How many more lives should be wasted ?
How many more should be put in the balance ?
... just to give this character another opportunity to change his choice ?

It also poses the problem of "selective forgiveness". I certainly have no problem with the message "Everyone deserves a chance to be forgiven".
But redeeming Ben Solo feels more like "Some special individuals must be saved at all cost ... and everyone else can burn for all we care".
_Snoke obviously went through some terrible hardships in his existence
_Hux might have turned into a decent individual, had he been raised in a more benevolent family
_ All the Stormtroopers are actually kidnapped and coerced (explicitly stated, not headcannon).
So why should i give all my sympathy and more, only to Ben Solo ? Someone who had a more favorable environmnent, more enlightened influences ... but purposedly chose to throw all that away ?

Last but not least, i don't want Han's death to be downplayed. For now, it is the tragic but noble death of a hero. He died trying to acccomplish the impossible. Deep down he knew his son was too far gone, but he tried to reach him anyway.
However, if Ben gets redeemed, then Han's death just becomes his failure to reach the quite possible... A mere "accident" during his son's rebellious phase.

Spoiler: Regarding Kylo's involvment in SKB's attack

He may not have agreed to SKB's attack, but he certainly didn't try to prevent it in any way either : we didn't even heard him complain about it.
Unlike most characters, Kylo willingly chose to join the FO (while other were born/raise into it). And after SKB initial attack, he is given an opportunity to walk away from the FO. However, and while SKB is about to fire on his mother's location, he still chose to murder his faher instead,.

Even if Kylo didn't wish for SKB"s attack originally, he condoned it at the very moment he pierced Han's chest with his lightsaber.

 

Lucas told Kasdan the Force is like Yoga any one can use but most do not develop it. This was OT era.

In PM we learn of mitachloreans which are symbiotic microorganisms that can be measured.

In TCW the Night Sisters drained people of the "Living Force." They collected it like power for a battery. Everyone had some trained force users had more.

Taken together. Anyone can not everyone does develop their force potential. So it is a combination of natural affinity and cultivation.