SPECULATION Ben's Redemption

I'm making that exact point - the Stormtroopers, the whole of the FO need redeeming as well. This is the only way to finally end the cycle of war that Vader started.This is why I think Finn will be important. Using Rey's inspiration, he can emancipate the Stormtroopers. He can show there is another way, rather than just wiping them all out.

But like I say, if we dwelled on past crimes, no one would be redeemed. The truth is that if Ren turns good and does good forthwith, he is by definition "redeemed". As for people like Snoke - that's down to him. If he decides he no longer wishes to commit evil, then he can be redeemed. I see no chance of that though. With Ren it is different. It is clear to see regret. It is clear to see a pathway to redemption.

Really? Because if Ren isn't redeemed then to me Han died for nothing. If however, Ren is redeemed and he helps save the galaxy then Han's act is on par with Kenobi's self sacrifice in ANH.

I'm not saying he couldn't have done more. But it wasn't his idea and you can tell he was against it - the first time by how he looks at Hux and then later when tries to get Snoke to let him probe Rey further rather than destroying the Resistance base.

 

In regards to the second half of your post:

What Han would have wanted is irrelevant? Why?

Yes, some special individuals must be saved if at all possible. It's called love. People have the right to be willing to lay down their lives for those they love. It's a tenet of Star Wars. See Skywalker, Luke. See Skywalker, Anakin. See Solo, Han. Some of our favorite heroes.

No, it doesn't make a lot of sense on a ledger or a spreadsheet. But it makes a lot of sense if you've ever loved someone. That's why people from all walks of life and of all ages love Star Wars. They might not be able to relate to wielding magic or laser swords or blowing up an armed space station, but almost everyone can identify with loving someone, believing in the good inside them, and giving unselfishly for their betterment.

 

(About Han's death)

Redemption or not, Han did die for nothing* : that's what makes it a tragic event.
But if it was not enough to make Ben have a strong reaction on the spot**, then it won't magically cause an outburst of emotions months/years later.
If Ben gets redeemed, Han's death won't be the cause, which mean it is "meaningless" either way.

* well, Han's sacrifice didn't produce any material results (but Obi Wan"s death didn't accomplish much either). However, Han did make a noble stand for his principles and ideals. That won't change, no matter what Ben choose to do next.

** seriously, this death had so little impact on Ren, that he didn't even try to preserve his father's body : he just gets rid of it like a potato sack. Heck he does not even try to return Han's gesture or shed a single tear.
And shortly after that, while his mother is minutes away from getting vaporized, he still prefers to chase the FO's ennemies in the woods.

Spoiler: As a comparaison...

Here is a Villain that actually shows regrets while killing his own father :

... but despite a much stronger and heartfelt reaction (and more reasons to perform the murder), no redemption was waiting for Commodus in the end.

 

Star Wars is not and will never be a "tragedy". Kathleen Kennedy has vehemently stated as much. The Prequels could have been a tragedy if we didn't know what happens after. The OT follows the Hero's Journey and ends on an incredibly hopeful, happy note. There's no reason to assume that the ST (controlled by Disney no less) will end sourly for such a beloved character.

Han may be dead but, at the risk of sounding trite, his hopes and dreams live on.

Han took a stand, not for the "greater good of the people" or "his ideals", no, he took a stand because he loved his son. He did it because he loved his wife. At no point does he indicate much of a care for the galaxy as a whole in the movie except for one throwaway line to Finn about how the Galaxy was counting on them. He was on Star Killer base to bring Ben home. That was Han's arc.

His was not the story of a Hero. That part of his life is over. His was the story of a father.

He immediately regrets it. But that's not enough to break over three decades of brainwashing. We don't hear much about Kylo's thoughts during and after this. However, are his actions that of a man who has achieved what he wants? Who has put aside his love for his family? He's unhinged. He goes after Rey and Finn and there's no logic in his fighting style. He's all over the place, desperately trying to hold himself together- both physically and mentally.

JJ Abrahms says as much. I can't find the quotes right now but I'll edit them in.

I am not saying that Ben's redemption is for sure going to happen.

However, the way I see it, Han's story isn't over. His arc isn't complete. It comes to a conclusion with his son's story.
Much like Anakin's.

And I for one would like to give him a send off that befits his character. Happy.

 

If you don't see the conflict and regret all over Kylo's face you should stand closer to the screen.

You don't need the force to sensitive to see the conflict in him.

 

To quote:

 

He felt real bad...then chased Finn and Rey around while doing nothing to stop the Starkiller from killing his Mother.

I say he is most sad about not getting a powerup that he thought he would from offing dear old dad.

--- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2017, Original Post Date: May 12, 2017 ---

He felt real bad...then chased Finn and Rey around while doing nothing to stop the Starkiller from killing his Mother.

I say he is most sad about not getting a powerup that he thought he would from offing dear old dad.

 

So you see no conflict in the character?

You are right I am sure that as he is pulled from the moment by a near explosive blast from Chewie he grew to resent the fact that he did not succeed but that doesn't mean he didn't feel more powerful Anakin seemed more powerful as he grew more tortured. I assume the same for Ren. But Driver's face had regret and fear of what he'd done all over it.

 

I don't care that he felt bad or looked like he felt bad.

Actions are what count. And his actions after were not those those of contrite person looking for redemption.

 

You realize that the idea of redemption is a future concept, right? A possibility for the rest of the trilogy? Kylo Ren wasn't redeemed in TFA. We have two movies with character arcs yet to get through.

 

Kylo Ren is not looking for redemption. I don't think we're ever going to see a dark side user being 'contrite'.. they are consumed by the dark side.

Kylo is tormented.. being torn apart.. he is in pain and wants the pain to stop. that isn't my opinion.. he said as much during the film.

it's crystal clear that there is a big divide among star wars fans over Kylo Ren.
i have complete respect for how everyone else views him and his actions... it's adds to the depth of the character that he is seen differently - a good thing.

He is complicated, and we have only seen him in one film so far. I for one am looking forward to seeing which way his character goes.. whether it's how i want it or not.

I like to be challenged by characters and story lines, and the Kylo story i think will tick all my boxes.
We all hated Snape in the Potter films... the dude killed one of our favorite characters. The guy was a hero.

In my opinion, if the writers wanted us to hate Ben Solo... they wouldn't have come up with the name 'Kylo Ren'. that's who they wanted us to see killing people and being generally bad.

Han was never weak and foolish, his son was not destroyed.. Ben Solo will return.

 

Kylo Ren is just like any other addict. You can't break the cycle straight away, no matter how hard you try. It takes time and willpower to get past it.

 

It doesn't matter because the only person in commands of Ren's destiny is Ren : only he can decide wether he will come back to the light or not. Han's wishes are irrelevant, only Ben's choices matter.

So far, SW has made a great job avoiding the "Love is always pure and good" naive pitfall.
_ Anakin did fall to the darkside because of his extreme attachment to Padme. How many younglings did he butchered "in the name of love" ?
_ Luke was also very close to fall, when Vader used his attachment to Leia against him.

Love can be dangerous, and can be a destructive force if followed blindly. There are lines you shouldn't cross, even in the name of love. ("There is only Passion" is the first precept of the Sith code)

So, yeah, forgiving a mass-murderer just because his parent loved him doesn't cut it for me. (especially when he killed half of them already)

Wow, that's some serious re-wrtiting of the movie you did there !

Han never actively searched for Ben on SKB.
He first focused on disabling the shields
Then he helped rescuing the innocent "hostage" (Rey).
Then, as the group was about to leave the planet, he noticed the Resistance was losing the fight, and made everyone else turn back to help.
Then he set up the explosive on the Oscillator
... only after all that, as his mission as Resistance hero was over, only then did he confront Ben (who happened to pass nearby).

He was on Starkiller first as a hero, then as a father.

And he was akso there as a guide for the younger generation :
Finn came mainly for Rey, and it took Han's speech to remind him he should place the safety of the galaxy above his (relatively) selfish wish.
That's the meaning behind his "The Galaxy is counting on us" (certainly not a line that should be dismissed so easily : his later actions definitevly matched his words).

His arc was to become a Hero one more time, and serve as mentor for the new generation during that last ride. And you're right, his legacy and heritage will live on ... even if Ben never accept them. He was a mentor Finn and, to a lesser extent, Rey : they will carry his torch no matter what.

Heritage (and even family) is not just about genetic affiliation. Han's successors don't need his genes to carry his teachings and his legacy.


PS : tragic event =/= tragedy. Obi-Wan's eath never made ANH a tragedy. The ST can very easily have a satisfying ending with Ben locked up, on the run or even dead.
(but don't expect a perfect "Happily ever after" ending : Disney need seeds for sequels)

 

Yeah Addiction not the same as joining a terrorist group and murdering people.

 

Really? Is power not addictive? The dark side feeds on your weaknesses, and give you the false strength to overcome them.

 

I do not really follow the logic you're going for here in response to my post, but if you are thinking that Han chose to follow his son out on the catwalk to try to bring him home, or Luke chose to try to save Anakin, or Anakin chose to save Luke from the Emperor--all at the risk of their own lives--for anything but the "naive pitfall" of self-sacrificing love, it is you who are rewriting the movies.

No one is asking you to love or forgive Ben Solo. It's the characters within the story who have to decide whether they will follow the values of Star Wars.

 

Not re-writing anything, just reminding you that all your examples only represent one side of a two edged-sword. Even in SW, Love can push you to greatness ... but can just as easily drive you to commit the worst atrocities :
It's also Love that pushed Anakin to betray the Order, slay his former comrades, butcher younglings and doom the galaxy for decades to come.

Anakin should have never crossed those lines, even for Padme. And there are also lines that shouldn't be crossed, even for Ben Solo.

And again, his redemption is not a matter of forgiveness : in the hypothetical scenario where Ben becomes repentant by himself and try to atone, i'm sure he will get it. However, he is certainly not on that path. Right now, he is a threat for the safety & the well-being of countless citizens of the galaxy.

So the question is not whether our heroes should forgive Ben Solo, but rather what's more important to them :
_ the well-being & safety of the entire galaxy
_ or their own selfish familial attachment to Ben

I expect my heroes to make the responsible choice, even if it costs them : making personnal sacrifices for a greater cause is the trademark of heroes. Han's sacrifice showed us appealing to Ben's compassion was a lost cause. So, unless Kylo magically change his mind on his own, our remaining heroes need to find another way to deal with this threat.

 

I don't see that selfless love has "another side" in SW. I see that fear and anger and selfish desire to have Padme only on his own terms were main factors in contributing to Anakin's fall. If you want to call that love, you can, but you can keep "love" that tries to kill the object of that love and his unborn child(ren).

Luke's "irresponsible" appeal to Darth Vader could have destroyed the Rebellion had it failed. But it didn't. Because there was still good in him, just as Padme and Luke both noted...correctly. Just as Leia noted about Kylo Ren. And Luke's "irresponsible" appeal out of love is what ended up saving the entire galaxy.

There are still two more movies in the trilogy for this to unfold. We don't know what might happen. But we do have the other SW movies to help us understand the patterns.

 

I don't know if anyone has seen this before: a custom-made action figure of a redeemed/light side Ben Solo...



Also featuring the appropriate amount of hair product.

 

His face looks like a crossover between Josh Brolin and Canderous Ordo.