Best Lightsaber Battle

Ok..will do when I get some time later today (possibly tomorrow).

Real quick, though...

If we're going to chat, can I ask you to chill out on the disagree button?

Usually that's reserved for big things that you want to make sure the person receives negative points for, and usually couples with some form of negative or sour attitude by the persom whom you're giving the rating to.

I won't be very motivated to hold a discussion if the social point reflection is as if I was giving you a frustrating time and providing a poor discussion.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

Ok well, if you didn’t notice, I removed all my disagreement before you posted this. Also, you haven’t removed yours but I went ahead and did it anyway... I am open to a conversation. But you could also chill with that button as well. No attack here, just wanted to clear that up. Im open for an open, reflective, and constructive conversation with you

 

I didn't hit disagree. Someone else did.

You can see who if you click on your avatar on the top right and select Ratings Received.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

Ah ok then. Im sorry. Thanks for not yelling at me and all lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 3, 2020 ---

Also Jayson, I am going to rewatch the ST on Disney+ rn to give a last try. Its just my preference against it. This will be my last time watching this trilogy...

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 3, 2020 ---

Again Jayson, Im sorry if I seemed salty or angry. I just have such a sturdy sturdy opinion hahaha. Well. i’d like to think we are somewhat friends so yeah. Ill try to be a little more open minded I guess. I said I’d try. Hahaha

 

Very friendly

 

Thank you

 

Nice!

 

Im sorry about that!

 

OK, sorry @Lukestarbucker . It took me longer than I said. Been busy, and I knew this breakdown would take several hours to put together, but it was quite fun to rewatch every saber scene and think everything over again!

Alright, here's my breakdown of every Saber Battle and whether they mattered or not.

My criteria are as follows:

• The battle involves or directly affects the main characters.
  • We are shown on screen that at least one of our main characters's growth was moved by the battle.
  • Main Characters are defined as: Our main protagonist, and our main antagonist.
    • The main characters for the films are as follows:
      • Original Trilogy: Luke & Vader
      • Prequel Trilogy: Anakin & Palpatine
      • Sequel Trilogy: Rey & Kylo
      • (Why not "Obi" in the Prequel Trilogy? Because Obi is an important supporting character, but he is not one of our main characters. He doesn't have a growth arc much to speak of, and the story isn't about how Obi lost his student. The story is about the fall of Anakin and the rise of Palpatine.)
• The battle involves a debate between at least one of our main characters (and preferably the other main character) which mirrors the physical battle.
  • The debate can be non-vocal or vocal.
    • "Non-vocal debate" is essentially what you see in Westerns when two gunslingers "speak with their eyes". That is to say "emoting" a conversation. Even if that emoting of a debate is an internal monologue with their own self.
• Cutting the battle out causes a loss of character growth information about one of our main characters that would not be achievable in any other manner than showing the battle scene (e.g. it couldn't have been written as dialogue to have happened off screen and had the same shown net effect to our main characters in its impact).

I will go through in release order.

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A NEW HOPE
Luke vs Training Droid
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is the first time we see how a saber works in Luke's hands, and that's crucial to Luke's growth as it cracks open his sense of the Force and encourages him to step forward further in the future when he needs it again.​

What happens if we remove it:

It makes the final scene pretty weird since Luke wouldn't have seemed to be getting in tune with the Force. It would have just seemed like Obi had ghost powers and nothing to do with the Force, and it wouldn't have moved Luke along in his growth with the Force.​

Obi vs. Vader
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

Vader is involved, and while Luke is off to the side, Luke is directly affected by the outcome of directly witnessing this battle. Luke is shoved into moving forward in becoming directly engaged with his new role and becomes the only central figure capable of carrying the torch of hope for the film, and must now take on that responsibility by himself. It also pushes Vader into the spotlight as being Luke's direct villain rather than previously where Vader was just an abstract villainous figure whom Luke had no direct engagement or investment with.​

What happens if we remove it:

We don't see Luke have an emotionally charged shock to his system that motivates him to step into his new role more fully, and we don't properly see Vader take up a position of being directly aligned as Luke's personal villain.​

FILM RATING: 100% Matters

EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
Luke vs Wampa
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

It's our first peek that Luke is capable of handling himself with a lightsaber to any degree at all, and that he has gained control of the Force enough to wield it to an effective end.​

What happens if we remove it:

We have no idea why we should expect to see him square off against Vader, given that he only faced a laser ball in ANH (badly), and faced a phantom Vader later (on Dagobah...morally badly, but I suppose at least potentially technically well?).​

Luke vs Phantom Vader (Dagobah)
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is when Luke first faces the notion that his fears and rash thinking cause him to be blind, and that giving into them will lead to him becoming the very thing he fears and hates.​

What happens if we remove it:

We aren't shown Luke wrestling with his fear and hatred, and trying to come to terms with the idea of becoming what he fears and hates. We further lack the information about his growth that he is not in control of himself yet, and is as not yet ready to take on big moral tasks as Yoda claims.​

Luke vs Vader
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

Luke fails to control his fear and anger, and lets it all run loose, swinging wildly and without good control. He believes he can win just by skill alone and leaves his moral emotions completely unguarded, and wide open to the gut punch that comes when Vader reveals that he is Luke's father. We also learn for the first time that the control over moral convictions one has is directly tied to their ability to function well in a saber fight. And lastly, we discover that that our two main characters aren't just directly connected as rivals, but as family. Vader also gets a moment of growth here because we finally see something out of him other than just a lumbering boogie man who will kill everyone at the drop of a hat. He, instead, shows interest in uniting with his son. This could be a ploy, or earnest. We're not entirely sure yet here, but in ROTJ we're shown more than it is indeed earnest - though warped.​

What happens if we remove it:

We lose the emotional value and impact of Luke discovering Vader is his father, and we lose the ability to understand that Luke's (or anyone's) ability to be capable in a saber battle is directly correlated to their moral convictions.​

FILM RATING: 100% Matters

RETURN OF THE JEDI
Luke vs Everyone (Jabba)
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

Though Luke isn't fighting anyone who has a lightsaber, he is fighting a ton of people at once and effectively saving the day by using what he has learned in his Jedi training. This also shows us that Luke is now capable and in control of his moral convictions. He is no longer awash, but dead-eye set on his tasks and responsibilities, and will take charge in doing them calmly rather than frantically as has previously happened.​

What happens if we remove it:

We end up with Luke squaring off against the Emperor and Vader at the end without any good idea that he's capable of standing on his own at this point. There would be a large disconnect in his presentation in Empire Strikes Back and a much larger uncertainty that would make his lack of wanting to attack Vader later seem less impactful since it would be somewhat hard to believe at the beginning before the Vader fight kicks off that Luke would be able to stand up to him this time around without some kind of show of change in his disposition, self-control, and capability.​

Luke vs Scout Trooper:
Matters: No.
Reason:

It's neat, and cool, but it's hardly a moment long and really doesn't show us Luke having grown in any notable manner other than, "Hey! Luke can now deflect blaster fire!", but we already knew that from the Jabba fight. This only actually served the scene, not the story. It just put the chips down against Luke in the scene where he progressively became more boxed in, and had to face down a scary fast shooting vehicle while just standing still and using his saber. So it's just a scene accelerator by bottle necking, and nothing more.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. We just have to add a line of dialogue (if we even care) to say the other trooper was taken care of.​

Luke vs Vader
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is the penultimate battle of the entire trilogy. It's Luke's final test. Here we see that Luke has finally stood to his resolve, and while still capable of faulting, he is much more able to pull back and resist violating his moral convictions at the end of it, and stand definitively by them. We also see that Luke has indeed chosen to be proud of his father for what he was, and still love him despite what he has become. It's the ultimate moment for Darth Vader as well, as Vader has had two prior moments with Luke. In Empire he showed an interest in uniting with his son, but we weren't sure about that, but on the walkway on Endor we see that Luke indeed can reach into Vader and touch his deeper heart and emotions. We see that Vader is a tragic person inside, however slight it might be and how callused he has become to it. The issue and value of this battle from this character side, then, is that Vader was indeed capable of change and not completely callused - that he was cable to be touched emotionally by his feelings for his son and that compassion hadn't completely vacated his capability. It also showed how Vader viewed his worth by this point, which is very low. He wasn't at all concerned with his own saving. He was willing to just die, but unlike Luke who was also willing to die, Vader was sorrowfully resigned to death in feeling unworthy of being retained further.​

What happens if we remove it:

This isn't even worth writing. Aside from everything just noted, everything about the Original Trilogy's arc would be way off without this battle taking place. You can't replace it with a non-battle. It's fundamentally critical. It's also critical to the entire franchise because it sets up the moral conflict cycle that would occur again and again in the Prequels and the Sequels.​

FILM RATING: 75% Matters

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TRILOGY RATING: 88% Matters
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THE PHANTOM MENACE
Obi and Qui vs Droids 1
Matters: No...though debatable.
Reason:

Neither of our main characters are involved, and nothing that happens is directly impactful to anyone's character growth at all. It's mildly valuable to the sociopolitical plot of the film, but only somewhat. It's mostly an excuse for showing off the Jedi in full form.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing really. Perhaps you could argue that we don't have an understanding of what Jedi are capable of doing, so I suppose it might serve a similar function as the Jabba fight for Luke, but there's no character investment here in terms of growth so we weren't wondering and needing to know if Obi-Wan was a capable Jedi. We, at best, were just looking forward to seeing him as a capable Jedi. Those are two different things. And he's not one of our main characters, and the results of this battle have no bearing on either of our main character's growths.​

Obi and Qui vs Droids 2
Matters: No.
Reason:

Neither of our main characters are involved, and nothing that happens is directly impactful to anyone's character growth at all. It's mildly valuable to the sociopolitical plot of the film, but only somewhat. It's more showing off of Jedi.
(Yes, the reason for this one is the same as the previous.)​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. We already saw Jedi in full form, so even that reason of moderate worth is gone. It's just Jedi sabering instead of using blasters. I suppose they are at least consistent with their rule.​

Maul vs Qui (Tatooine)
Matters: No.
Reason:

While it could have shown that Anakin was in threat, that's not what's going on. Maul is there to directly go after Qui - not Anakin. He's there to kidnap Queen Amidala, who wasn't anywhere the scene. Qui's not one of our main characters, doesn't die in front of Anakin here, and as such nothing that happens here really actually matters to our main characters' growths. It's more a battle to just make sure that we understand that the team isn't just in free-space and able to coast.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. You could replace it with Maul in a spaceship shooting at Amidala's spaceship as they flew away and jumped into hyperspace and it would be the same thing. It wouldn't look as flashy, or show us what we're in for with saber on saber battles in this film, but that's not actually valuable to the core structure of any character. That's just serving the film directly rather than any character's growth in the story.​

Maul vs Qui & Obi
Matters: No. (I'm aware that I'm going to get heat for this)
Reason:

This by no means indicates whether it's a cool fight, or that the audience cared about the fight or not. It means that the fight doesn't mean anything to the growth of either of our main characters (Anakin or Palpatine) by any interaction shown on screen of either main character being involved in, or witnessing, the battle directly.
The main purpose of this battle is to show us that Obi makes a promise to Qui to take on Anakin, and that this is how Obi becomes familiar with Anakin, whom he claims a closeness with by the time of A New Hope.
The thing is, however, that you can cut this scene out and it wouldn't matter. You could replace it with dialogue and accomplish the same net effect to Anakin or the Emperor's growth.
It is very true that the film would have been quite a bit more dull without having a battle somewhere in the third act of the film, but again, it's mostly serving the film and not our main characters' growths.
This is kind of what allows the "Machete Order" to just cut The Phantom Menace from the saga and point out that it effectively makes no difference because every important thing that happens in the film stays primarily in the film and doesn't directly carry over into Attack of the Clones in a way that you can't pick up on by just watching Attack of the Clones. Or, in this case of evaluation where we judge whether it can be replaced or not - again, Anakin's not around, Palpatine's not around, how Obi-Wan took up Anakin doesn't play a huge on screen shown (sorry Fioni, for the whole "losing Qui as a father figure and having to deal with Obi as a brother" thing to actually matter, there would need to be something on screen that shows Anakin feeling that way and being deeply troubled by losing Qui ... at all ... even a little - or just any address of the concept in a meaningful manner), and Qui dying doesn't appear to actually affect any of our main characters strongly at all. Anakin's just kind of hanging around. Obi was moved, but we don't really see any actual impact in Obi's growth - primarily because Obi doesn't have a growth, he just has reactions to things, but stays the same character the whole way through.​

What happens if we remove it:

The third act lacks an exciting saber battle.​

FILM RATING: 0% Matters

ATTACK OF THE CLONES
Obi & Anakin vs Bounty Hunter (Zam)
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

Like the Jabba fight, this is the first time we see that Anakin is fully capable of handling himself, and we also see that he takes rash action without regard of his teacher, who professes that this is a common trait that he's become familiar with.​

What happens if we remove it:

Not a whole lot. We never saw Anakin unsure of himself in The Phantom Menace in anything that he did, and we know that he eventually becomes Vader, and there's no compassionate side to fill us in on how he differs at all from the ruthless Vader, so there's no real strong emotional move in his character growth out of this, unlike Luke's. While it is technically involving one of our main characters and it technically shows an aspect of his growth in showing that he is a capable Jedi-to-be, it's not a strong battle that really moves his character along in any novel manner we couldn't have done without.​

Obi vs Jango
Matters: No.
Reason:

Doesn't involve any of our main characters, nor directly affects any of our main characters. Furthermore, Obi's capability was never in question.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. You could replace the entire exchange with blasters and it would be the same.​

Anakin vs Tusken Raiders
Matters: Yes.
Reason:
Though we hardly see any of this battle, it's absolutely critical to the character growth of Anakin. It's actually a shame that we didn't see this scene in full because this scene almost entirely defines every fault Anakin has going forward, and shows us how he is capable of ruthlessness and why. How he later copes with it, and what it does to his emotional heart and self-identity is paramount. It truly is a shame it was cut down to a single moment for how big of an event this was for his growth as a character. Because this is all a reaction to the loss of his mother, it tells us that his sense of family and his rash obedience to his feelings of love are a core attribute of his character that he cannot easily shake at all. In fact, when mixed with Return of the Jedi, it tells us that he has always been what we see in Return of the Jedi and the origins of his downfall and his redemption were for the same reasons.
What happens if we remove it:
It almost effectively is removed as it is - being knocked down to three saber swings, but to remove it even further would be very damaging as it would put the entirety of his character emoting his disposition off camera and we would just have his return to Padme to fill us in entirely with dialogue instead of only filling us in with dialogue mostly as we have it.

Anakin vs Geonosians
Matters: No.
Reason:

We already know Anakin can hold his own, and we already know that he can kill entire villages of people, including children, so seeing him take out a bunch of hostile aliens with no moral threat involved, nor any deep character loss. It does show us that he can be outmatched without his lightsaber, which I doubt was ever really much in question. If he had stopped because he saw Padme was in threat, that would have been an interesting character growth notch, but he doesn't. They're not even near enough other and he doesn't seem to consider that at all, nor does he seem to consider anything a real threat either. He's absolutely certain that he'll see Obi again, and he's more bothered that Obi's going to be upset about his saber being broken than he is concerned with whether or not Padme is safe.​

What happens if we remove it:

Not much. Either way they end up captured, regardless if we have this fight scene or not.​

Geonosis Jedi Brawl
Matters: No.
Reason:

Yes, Anakin is in it, but it makes no difference to his character growth that he's in this battle or not in regards to his moral convictions and the complexities of his arc or adding to its narrative push. It's just a big brawl of lightsabers for giggles and that's about it.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. You could go in and replace every lightsaber with VFX blasters and it would be the exact same result. Yes, yes, Jedi don't use blasters, but that's not the point. The point is that the sabers here aren't being used in any special manner that's meaningful to our main characters' growths. They're just swords.​

Obi & Anakin vs Dooku
Matters: No...ish. OK, I'll give this one a Yes, but only just. It's barely of value.
Reason:
There's no real weight in this fight for Anakin. He looses an arm, and that's about the only relevant impact. It doesn't seem to bother him that it's been replaced though. The main impact to Anakin is that he can lose. It's the first time we soundly see Anakin lose, so on that note it's worth something because it's the first time we'll get to see how he copes with losing (spoiler - he doesn't care...seemingly at all).
What happens if we remove it:
We lose a little in knowing that Anakin doesn't seem to be bothered by losing at all. Dooku seems more put out that he beat Anakin than Anakin is about it once he recovers.

Yoda vs Dooku
Matters: No.
Reason:

Anakin's passed out, and neither Dooku, nor Yoda have ever seemed to be critical figures to Anakin's growth in regards to his moral conviction in terms of what happens to either one of them, so really this is entirely for the fun of seeing Yoda throw down.​

What happens if we remove it:

Fans might be a bit miffed that there wasn't a Yoda fight. Otherwise, nothing. Dooku could have been chased off in any number of methods, or he could have just walked off. If he had walked off, it wouldn't have been a clash against the actor's emoting at the end of the battle which conveys deep sorrow for what's just happened to Anakin. If anything, that probably would have helped a bit because it would have posited the idea that he wasn't trying to hurt Anakin, and that would have added to the narrative fuel involving Anakin...anyway, yeah. Nothing much changes for our main characters' growths without this battle.​

FILM RATING: 43% Matters

REVENGE OF THE SITH
Obi & Anakin vs Droids 1 (Hanger)
Matters: No.
Reason:

We already know both are capable, and nothing happens to either in the battle to move their narrative growth any. Everything's pretty much the same.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. Blasters would do just the same thing.​

Obi & Anakin vs Droids 2 (Hallway)
Matters: No.
Reason:

We already know both are capable, and nothing happens to either in the battle to move their narrative growth any. Everything's pretty much the same.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. Blasters would do just the same thing.​

Obi & Anakin vs Dooku
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is the other really important saber battle for Anakin, and this one also involved Palpatine. In fact, this one is arguably one of the more important of all of the battles in this trilogy because it's the first time we see that Anakin can be coaxed into doing what Palpatine wants him to do. It's when Palpatine also learns that he can manipulate and control Anakin, which pushes Palpatine's growth forward as well in terms of becoming even more bold with his moves against Anakin. However, it also shows that Palpatine doesn't have complete control over Anakin just yet because Anakin won't leave Obi behind. This basically sets up the wedge between Anakin and Obi, as it is clear that the only thing stopping Anakin from listening to Palpatine at this point is Obi.​

What happens if we remove it:

You can't remove it. Someone has to be killed to show that Anakin can be controlled like this by Palpatine. If you try to make this an off camera moment, it's just not going to work at all for Anakin's growth.​

Obi & Anakin vs Droids 3 (Bridge)
Matters: No.
Reason:

Blasters could have been used and it wouldn't have made any difference.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. There's no difference between this scene happening and if no one had been on the bridge and the ship was set to a detrimental crash course.​

Obi vs Grievous
Matters: No.
Reason:

Doesn't involve our main characters, and no direct emotional weight is pressed upon our main characters as a result of this battle.​

What happens if we remove it:

Fans miss out on a four-saber swinging cyborg.​

Anakin vs Palpatine
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

While this might not even seem like a saber battle to most, this is really high up there with the best that saber battles have to offer in Star Wars. Palpatine completely owns Anakin in this battle without ever picking up a saber, and the entirety of this battle revolves around their relative position of physical power vs mental power. While Anakin appears to have absolute dominion in the physical power category, Palpatine entirely dominates the mental power category, and this will forever define them going forward for the remainder of their relationship.​

What happens if we remove it:

You could try to remove it and just have then standing around and debating, but it wouldn't work nearly as well. The entire point is that Palpatine could be taken down at any moment, and is even willing to turn his back to Anakin with the saber directly pointed at him. That single action thunders very loudly through both of their character growths. And just can't be so easily replaced with something else.​

Palpatine vs Mace
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

While horribly corny in a few different ways, it shows what Palaptatine is fully capable of and it also shows that he isn't completely unbeatable. It also pushes his character more fully into his full self as he is converted into the proper form of the Emperor that we become familiar with by the time that Return of the Jedi rolls around (or, arguably, by the time that Empire rolls around with the CGI fixes in the special edition).​

What happens if we remove it:

You can't. There's simply no other way to convey this information. There would be a huge whole in the growth of Palpatine if you remove this battle.​

Anakin vs Mace
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is the absolute tipping point. From here on out, there's no turning back for Anakin. Regardless how right he thinks he is, that is his critical flaw. He thinks he is right by how vile he's being and how wrong of actions he's taking. Everything after this point only serves to push him further and further from recovery in his own mind, but this is the critical turning point when Palpatine entirely had Anakin in his grasp.​

What Happens if we remove it:

You can't. There's absolutely no way around this. Palpatine has to have that first moment where nothing can stop his sway over Anakin, not even the reasoning of another Jedi, and the consequences have to be high stakes of costing lives and changing fates permanently.​

Yoda vs Clones
Matters: No.
Reason:

No main characters involved. Just Yoda doing Yoda flips.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. You could dialogue it off and it would net the same emotional result to the main characters' narratives.​

Anakin vs Younglings
Matters: I would say no, but I suppose others might say yes - debatable. I'll call it a Draw.
Reason:

Anakin's already shown that he's willing to kill whole villages of people, so really there's no reason to be entirely shocked that he's willing to do it now that he's become Palpatine's sinister yes-man to attempt to save Padme. Last time he was willing to do it in revenge for the loss of his mother, so...this isn't really surprising. It's dark, for sure. On the other hand, I could argue that it is meaningful to the character growth of Anakin because it pushes him further down the line from feeling good about himself, and locking himself up in his place of evil - that killing Mace alone wouldn't have likely been quite enough for him to feel just so absolutely terrible about himself and push himself into justifying his actions so much.​

What happens if we remove it:

It's hard to judge. You could remove this with dialogue and probably get the same net effect since it would be down the actor's expressions, but on the other hand it has a bit of the power coming from the fact that it's being shown, so ... it's hard to really call this one.​

Yoda vs Palpatine
Matters: Yes.
Reason:
Even though it lacks a good staging and weight, it shows that Palpatine outclasses Yoda and that Yoda has to back off. This moves Palpatine's growth into completion and leaves him as an entirely unchecked source of power and control.
What happens if we remove it:
You could move it away in dialogue rather easily, actually. Not a lot happens in it between Yoda and Palpatine that's impossible to summarize with dialogue after-the-fact. So even though it's a "Yes" for it mattering, it's only just a "Yes"...barely.

Obi vs Anakin
Matters: No. (Yes...I know...I'm setting myself up for a wall of hate for this.)
Reason:

This is a mere formality at this point. It's only real purpose is to check that final checkbox in the list to Anakin becoming Vader by having him sever his connection with Obi and need his Vader suit. That said....​

What happens if we remove it:

Not a whole lot. Mostly angry fans for missing out on a big long saber throw down for those we are fans of this one, and that's not a small amount of fans, so that's worth noting. It's value is marginal to the character narrative though because if they had never drew a saber and Anakin had fallen into lava while chasing after Obi who was fleeing with Padme (who was in need of medical attention, btw), then you would end up with the same thing because as far as Anakin was concerned, his relationship with Obi was over the moment that Obi stepped off of the ship. It's written all over his face.
There was no question at this point either in whether or not Anakin was going to turn, nor how Obi was going to feel about it. What this didn't do was show us anything new about Anakin that was buried deep on the inside in the Original Trilogy that allows us to be more impacted by what we see of Vader in the Original Trilogy. We don't learn of a great inner loss within him that's a result of this battle. He doesn't do anything accidentally in this battle in regards to his moral convictions that's really defining in terms of what's tucked under that mask in the Original Trilogy. Everything that defined him was already done before this happened, and his actions upon Padme, their results, and their impacts upon Anakin are all outside of this saber fight, so none of that factors in here either. Ultimately this is more about Obi and Anakin falling out, and the trilogy never set these two up as critical to each other in terms of Anakin's moral imperatives. Anakin's moral imperatives were his mother and Padme. Not Obi. Obi was to Anakin what Yoda was to Luke. Important, but nowhere close to something that drives his moral convictions' growth. He grows regardless if Obi is in the film much or not. I know that's crazy, but if I went through and CGI erased Obi from the entire trilogy, there would be few scenes at all where it would really matter that he was removed in terms of growth for Anakin and how he became Vader morally.
Probably the biggest scene for Obi in this regard is actually the bounty hunter chase scene with Anakin, but this scene is more just to tie up the loose ends and put a shiny black helmeted bow on things.​

FILM RATING: 42% Matters

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TRILOGY RATING: 35% Matters
===========================


----continued after the bump----

 

THE FORCE AWAKENS
Poe & Tekka vs Kylo
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

It presents us with our starting point for Kylo, and just how ruthless as well as powerful he is.​

What happens if we remove it:

We simply don't have a clear starting point for Kylo's growth over the trilogy without this scene.​

Finn vs Stormtrooper
Matters: No.
Reason:

Finn isn't one of our main characters (Rey & Kylo), and using the saber also doesn't mean anything for his character growth. It's mostly there to keep the saber moving to where we want to get it, and possibly open up the question about Finn's Force connection, but again, Finn's not one of our main two characters so it's not terribly important.​

What happens if we remove it:

Not much. Finn could have had a fight with the Stormtrooper using a shock weapon and it would have had the same net result.​

Kylo vs Rey (Maz's Castle)
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is the first time our two main characters meet. It establishes how terrified and powerless Rey is compared to Kylo, and how much Kylo is able to toy with her and manipulate her physically and psychologically terrorize her - which is a running thematic relationship between these two as the saga continues. It's also interesting in the terms of the saga because it's also the fastest our two main characters meet in direct confrontation with each other in any trilogy.​

What happens if we remove it:

Well, you'd have no real clear idea why, or how, Rey was captured and with Kylo, and while the torture scene would suffice for setting up their relationship, it would lose a little of its power for Rey's character growth establishment because it is because of this battle where she is terrified and powerless that the subsequent power twist she pulls on Kylo in the torture chamber is of any value of note to her character growth. Conversely, Kylo's entire lack of fear or caution regarding Rey in this battle is what makes his sudden doubt, caution, and curiosity faced with Rey's twisting around of power of interest for his growth as it is the first time we see him as anything other than straight ruthless, forceful, and confident. Again, something that only has power because of his first showing with Rey in this scene.​

Kylo vs Han
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is quite possibly one of the most important battles in the entire saga, tied in my opinion with Anakin vs Palpatine in the Prequels as yet again we have a very one sided battle taking place and the one attempting to compel the other is letting their guard entirely down and pleading by reason or emotion, but in this one Kylo isn't compelled and instead kills his own father, which is a massive primary push on Kylo's character growth. It's also witnessed by Rey, and it heavily impactful to Rey in much the same way that Obi's death was impactful to Luke. She can no longer attach herself to Han even if she wanted to, and now she sees just how much of a "monster" Kylo is exactly. She also sees reason to doubt compassion as a functional approach to combat evil. This sets up seeds of doubts in the Jedi passivity that will sow into her struggles in The Last Jedi and help in part to muddy the waters between the effectiveness of "good" ways and "bad" ways.​

What happens if we remove it:

You simply cannot remove this scene and have the film function as the same film in any way.
​

Finn vs Kylo
Matters: No.
Reason:

While it does include one of our main characters, it doesn't move Kylo's growth along in any meaningful manner that hasn't already been established, and Finn not only isn't one of our main characters, there wasn't really ever any doubt that his disposition was always to jump into saving Rey. That was established all the way back when they met and she told him to stop grabbing her hand on Jakku.​

What happens if we remove it:

Not much. A bit of an odd jumble regarding where Finn went, but otherwise not much happens that's critical to either Kylo or Rey's growth in removing it.​

Rey vs Kylo
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is when Rey finds out that she can stand up to Kylo in any capacity, and first takes a crack at truly putting what she has felt to use. It's when Kylo realizes she's much more than he first had thought, but it also shows that Rey is still very much on the defensive and trying to play catch up a lot to even stand up to a wounded Kylo. She is, however, very determined while Kylo is becoming less certain of himself. It also shows that Rey's defensiveness is directly related to when she doesn't give herself fully into the Force, and that she has a unique ability to connect with the Force powerfully. Further, Kylo is interested and fascinated with Rey and immediately wants to win her over to join him. They both feel a strong connection, though Rey is repulsed by it. It also shows us that when Rey taps into the Force, the first place she goes with it is pure rage and force. This doesn't mean that I'm claiming she was a Palpatine right from the beginning because of this battle or not. It means that the value of this point is that she goes straight rage-a-thon which is always a sign of someone who needs a lot of work in Star Wars morally to prevent them from dropping into the dark side.​

What happens if we remove it:

Again, the film just doesn't allow for this possibility. If you remove this, the entire setup between the two as a power duo that spans the entire saga is thrown entirely off kilter.​

FILM RATING: 67% Matters

THE LAST JEDI
Rey vs The Rock
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

While only a training session, so was Luke's with the training droid, and this one is important because it shows us a very clear picture that while Rey is indeed able to tap into the Force and powerfully so, as Luke's expression tells us, she is also unable to control herself very well - instead giving into the excitation of the moment emotionally and lose any sense of context of what she's doing. This foreshadows her problems later because here she causes damage because she's not paying attention. In this case the damage just happens to be to a cart and no people, but it still foreshadows her general problem and the dangers of it. She doesn't have control of her emotions, and she doesn't think beyond what she's doing and how it will affect others. This is a problem that she doesn't resolve in The Last Jedi and that she carries over into The Rise of Skywalker.​

What happens if we remove it:

We lack a clear showing of how reckless her use of her power is, and that she doesn't think beyond what she's doing. While we saw this to an extent in The Force Awakens, through Luke we're shown the proper context of its value and impact to her growth and what dangers for her lie ahead. You could try to remove it and rely on just her scene in the cave and her scenes elsewhere in the film, but it would be less clear of an image. So it's possible, but less preferred for the point of her narrative growth.​

Luke vs Kylo (Flashbacks)
Matters: No.
Reason:

The information matters, but just Luke and Kylo telling the story to Rey from their sides would suffice to accomplish the same thing without a wonky flashback insert.​

What happens if we remove it:

We just watch Luke and Kylo emotionally tell their versions and we focus on them rather than a flashback that takes us out of the current story and into another one. In other words, nothing bad happens by removing it since they both talk over the flashback anyway.​

Kylo vs Snoke
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

Firstly, it's the death of Snoke, Kylo's up-until-this-moment master, but secondly, it shows that Kylo is capable of bending for Rey to an extreme level, much like Vader for Luke. The only principle difference here is that Kylo is willing to bend for Rey, but only in so far as to make room for Rey to bend for him. He's not willing at this point to move fully to side with Rey; just to preserve her for himself.​

What happens if we remove it:

You can't remove it. It wouldn't be The Last Jedi without this moment. This is an absolutely critical point in their relationship as the main characters.​

Kylo & rey vs Guards
Matters: No.
Reason:

Nothing happens in this moment that's important. It's entirely throw away action. If you cut this battle out, absolutely nothing would change in regards to either Kylo or Rey's growth. All of the character growth moments of value happen before this battle and after it, but not during it. This moment is pure sabering off for the kicks of a saber action scene.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. Some fans get upset that a flashy looking saber fight is gone, while other cheer that a terribly choreographed saber fight with needless pausing and twirling is gone. Impact to the character growth and story, though? Nothing.
​

Rey vs Kylo (immediately following Guard fight)
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is the critical representation of their struggle against each other and that in terms of the Force, they are now equals in terms of raw power of will, which is what's taking place as they both pull on the saber at the same time and end up breaking it in half. This won't be the last time that they tear something apart by both challenging their wills against each other over ownership over the object.​

What happens if we remove it:

You could arguably do with out it, but you'd have to really add a lot of heavy dialogue to accomplish the same effect, and it's probably not going to work anywhere nearly as well if you attempt that. Since Rise of Skywalker has a very similar scene over the transport shuttle which results in a very different outcome of Rey shocking the hell out of Kylo and herself with what she ends up doing, this scene is arguably even less capable of being removed as it sets that one up by showing a pure equality this time around.​

Kylo vs Luke
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is the prime ultimate move of Luke, and there's a lot of value in that, BUT, this nets the battle a big fat zero in terms of value for our main characters because, and I know this is still hard for a lot of folks to swallow, but Luke is not one of our main characters. That said, it still matters because Kylo is in it and it shows how unhinges Kylo has become at this point. He's almost entirely moved to where Rey was in The Force Awakens with just blindly charging in and moving with rage as the leading emotion over any focused emotional output. It also recoils Kylo from the progress he made before with inching a little bit toward the good side up until he lost Rey over the saber. Now he's just off the rails and ragingly diving into the dark side again, but again, this time he's foundering. That difference carries a lot of weight as it is what makes him now vulnerable for further swooning down the line, and we can see here how ineffective he becomes in his foundering blindness.​

What happens if we remove it:

We remove a full showcase of Kylo going ape-crazy off the deep end and showing what the impact is of him wrestling with destroying everything he obeyed in order for Rey only to have it all go against how he foresaw it going in his mind. It directly sets his disposition up for the next film.​

FILM RATING: 67% Matters

RISE OF SKYWALKER
Kylo vs Everyone on Mustafar
Matters: No.
Reason:

There's no real character movement as a result of this moment. It's just flashy, but the only real reason for this scene is to get our MacGuffin, so it's not really all that important how we get it since there's no moral conviction issues going on here that weren't already present at the end of The Last Jedi. Rage boy is rage boy.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. We just kick off with Kylo grabbing the MacGuffinand we're off. Less flashy, but no impact to character growth.​

Kylo vs Palpatine
Matters: No.
Reason:

It doesn't really matter what happens in this scene in terms of our main character. It matters that Palpatine is back, but it doesn't matter that he's facing down Kylo's blade in a similar manner as Anakin back in the Prequels because all that's really happening is an exposition for the plot movement to give a motive for Kylo to go running after Rey as his MacGuffin.​

What happens if we remove it:

* shrug* I don't know. We still would know that Palpatine's back, it just wouldn't have an ending where he pulls a James Bond villain monologue to Kylo, and Kylo wouldn't have been pointing a sword at Palpatine. There would be a bit of information gap, but the idea of Kylo chasing after Rey doesn't really need an explanation since they've been chasing after each other the entire trilogy, and Rey would always end up with Palpatine regardless if Kylo was chasing her or not, so really it's kind of a toss away saber showdown. It does look cool though.​

Rey vs Trees
Matters: Yes, but also no. We'll call it a draw.
Reason:

It shows that Kylo can screw up Rey's senses by heavily tapping into the Force, which sets up an indication of their diad connection quite a bit further than it had previously been done - where before it was mostly a sense of each other, and the ability to communicate at a distance, now it's the ability to off balance each other with what they are doing in the Force.​

What happens if we remove it:

It could be done, but it's a tricky thing to remove, but you could arguably remove it and be mostly fine. It would be a bit weird to wonder what exactly Kylo is doing in the absence of Rey's scenes, but it would just come off as just Kylo trying to talk to dear departed grandfather again. On the plus side, it would save on even more awkward flashback intercuts. Man, this trilogy and it's obsession with flashbacks.​

Rey vs Kylo's Tie Fighter
Matters: No...not even a little.
Reason:

This doesn't do anything. It's not even clear what the point of this even was. Mostly it just shows off a nifty Maul flip. Ah Star Wars and its seemingly endless love of flipping over people in the most ridiculous manners possible instead of anything more practicle. Anyway, that's off topic. The actual point is there's no growth to either of the in this moment. All of the growth happens after this when they square off over a shuttle like they did the saber in The Last Jedi, which this time triggers Force lightning to fling out of Rey with unintended consequences like she did when she squared off against a rock in The Last Jedi and didn't retain focus.​

However, THAT moment that IS worth a hell of a lot to their growths is not a saber battle.
What happens if we remove it:

Nothing. Kylo lands, they still spat over things and the story moves on. It would just look like Kylo either landed or crashed depending on how you cut it.​

Rey vs Kylo (Forcetime fight)
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

It shows us how interconnected they are, that Kylo isn't at all shocked by this, and that Rey is. More importantly, this confrontation really pushes Rey to doubt herself and defines the path ahead for her moral obstacles. Kylo on the other hand, doesn't have much growth taking place here. He's mostly just holding down the fort.​

What happens if we remove it:

You simply can't remove this one and have anything that resembles The Rise of Skywalker​

Rey vs Dark Rey
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

Rey directly faces her worst fear personified and now has it firmly planted in her mind. She also immediately recoils and riles against it, but ultimately it causes her a tremendous amount of self doubt.​

What happens if we remove it:

You might be able to remove it and lean into the following scene with Kylo, but I think you lose quite a bit of clarity as to what's going on in the psyche of Rey and what she's really fearing as the worst of herself.​

Rey vs Kylo (Death Star ruins)
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is the death of Kylo and the rebirth of Ben. It's one of the most heavy and fast growths for Kylo in his nearly literal baptism by fire (or, plasma as the case may be). Unlike Vader who dies and then so does Anakin in the same moment, Kylo is killed and Anakin is alive for considerably longer. Further, this also pushes Rey down her dark path as she doesn't even hesitate to kill Kylo when he stops fighting. She course corrects this afterwards by healing Kylo, but she also is forced by this final straw on the proverbial camel's back to exile herself in severe doubt that she is capable of retaining her inner darkness at all since every time she really lets out with the Force, it results in a terrible tragedy taking place that she did not actively and willingly in control intend. She always flies off the handle in battle at some point.​

What happens if we remove it:

No. You just can't remove this for this film, or this trilogy. It's far too much at the heart of everything to do with both main characters' growths.​

Leia vs Luke (flashback)
Matters: No.
Reason:

Not our main characters, no impact to our main characters. Let's be honest, this was just straight fan service fun time that didn't actually need to be visually on screen.​

What happens if we remove it:

Dialogue that says the same exact thing and remains focused on our character who are having a conversation. Darn.​

Rey vs Palpatine (Round 1)
Matters: Yes.
Reason:
Rey refuses the Emperor. That's once. Usually that's enough in this saga, but Rey's got to do it - it would seem - as many times as there are trilogies in the saga (I'm not saying that's intended, I was just saying it's a lot of times she refuses GrandPalps).
What happens if we remove it:
Rey doesn't refuse the Emperor. Which removes the functional motivation for Rey going forward with the rest. She's now convicted to her choice. The rest is about maintaining that choice under duress.

Rey vs Guards
Matters: No.
Reason:

Nothing moral happening here. It's just guard fodder time.​

What happens if we remove it:

Nothing much. We focus more on Ben's battle which does matter.​

Ben vs Knights
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is the first time we see Kylo convincingly and actively show us that he is truly now Ben and not Kylo. He's now fighting his very own and personal past.​

What happens if we remove it:

We can't remove this and have a strong telling of Ben's conversion in show of facing down his past, which has always been his primary problem. He faced his father, and now he faces his own previous comrades.​

Kylo & Rey vs Palpatine
Matters: Yes.
Reason:
Both are united in their purpose similar to facing off against Snoke, but this time they are facing off against the Emperor, and they are both on the side of good and not fighting for the their side as they were doing before in The Last Jedi. They are fully united. However, they are not enough as of this moment in their unity and Palpatine pushes upon them a further challenge to their character. Cheerily joining forces will not cut it. That will not be enough resolve or redemption.
What happens if we remove it:
You can't. It completely screws up the resolve and redemption tangents that follow if this is removed.

Rey vs Palpatine
Matters: Yes.
Reason:

This is when Rey stops denying her past and accepts it as part of who she is when Palps says that he is all of the Sith and Rey counters with stating that she is every Jedi - tossing his own words and concept of power back at him, which physically she does as well with lightning reflected by by her sabers. This also kills Rey, which sets up the redemption tangent for Ben who sacrifices his life to giver her life back.​

What happens if we remove it:

You can't remove this. Without this ending, you don't have the rest of the information about how Rey resolved her struggle, or how Ben redeemed himself.​

FILM RATING: 58% Matters

===========================
TRILOGY RATING: 63% Matters
===========================

SAGA RATING: 55% Matters​

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I agree with every one except maybe finn vs stormtrooper, but that would only make the cut if we factor in the book with the the stormtrooper he was fighting when finn was a stormtrooper. Otherwise, great post

 

@Jayson that took long to read anyway. But yeah I guess I do agree with most of your points. I still think that the side character developments matter a lot as well, just not as much as the main protagonist and antagonist. Im sorry, im sure you have seen this coming, but I think Obi vs Anakin on Mustafar was so important. Anakin has truly turned to the dark side as he is fighting his old Master and old best friend. After being subdued, he is transformed into that Vader costume which walks us into the OTs. And its just a well choreographed duel. But yeah, that took quite some time to read. Very smart! You know too much star wars haha.

 

Firstly, thank you both for taking the time to read all of that, and thank you for both providing great posts and discussions!

That does make it more important for Finn, but by the criteria that I set out for uniformed grading it still leaves the battle in the "No" category because Finn isn't one of our two main characters of the trilogy (Rey or Kylo).
This doesn't mean that it doesn't matter purely to fans, or that it doesn't matter to the film, because that's entirely different. What matters to the film is whatever moves the film along in an exciting manner, so even though Luke pulling out his saber against the scout trooper doesn't matter to Luke's character growth, it does matter for the film because it enhances the scene by making the scene more tense.
Additionally, there are scores and scores who love the Maul fight, and that means that if you cut it out, you're really going to bother a portion of the fans who really like that scene even if the scene does nothing for either Anakin or Palpatine's growth.

There's a similar moment taking place here with Finn. It's actually both together. Fans of Finn are going to love that scene, even with it being the lite version we see in the film, and additionally, it's of value to the film because it gives an "OOOO! & AHHH!" flash like Luke with the speeder bike - it fill in the diversity of the action with something interesting to see that's exciting for the (general) audience.

But, again, it doesn't mean that his battle with that trooper matters to Rey or Kylo's growth.

I absolutely agree that they matter, otherwise you just have a very limited film. They just don't matter to the main heart of the story centered around the main two characters. We can't very well say that Han straight out doesn't matter. That's just preposterous to assert - especially in A New Hope (though, it is exactly what everyone wrestled with in ROTJ, and just found ways of coping with as a "lesser of the evils" situation...but that's a different story).

I wrestled with this a lot. I went back and forth on it constantly arguing with myself, but by the end of it, I couldn't make a solid argument for it actually mattering because I made those same points to myself, but here's the thing.

Anakin has truly turned to the dark side by fighting Obi
Has this moment been the thing that truly pushed him to the dark side?
It wasn't this sequence of events?


He wasn't already Darth Vader?


And this was before he then killed a bunch of children who felt safe with him and looked up to him, and before he choked his pregnant wife to unconsciousness.

So has he not already truly turned to the dark side by this point before he even fights Obi?
I can't agree when I made that argument to myself. There's just a pile of stuff that happens before he even steps up to Obi that has clearly indicated that he's already gone far over the deep end, and he knows it. He willingly bent to Palpatine and accepted his new position as a Sith, and called Palpatine "Master".

Obi is Anakin's old Master & Friend
I argued this with myself as a point to check against as well, but...is he?
This breaks down into two parts: Master, Friend.

Master:
His master, yes. That's true...ish. Because, unlike Palpatine where Anakin straight up bows and doesn't question anything after that from him and just obeys, Anakin repeatedly challenges Obi's orders, commands, and guidance to Obi's repeated irritation, and Anakin repeatedly expressed his view that he should be a full Jedi already, so Obi is his master, but the relationship on this front that we're given is very much one that is barely accepted by Anakin - it's almost just more tolerated as a formality than in earnestness. There's very little respect given to Obi by Anakin as his master.
So technically it's true, but I don't know that I'm shown anything that shows me that there's much value in this point on Anakin's psyche at any point that isn't already overshadowed in scores by everything else before hand.

Old Best Friend:
Again, I inherently said "Hey, he's his old best friend; that counts.", but then I asked..."is he?"
So again, I scrolled back through and looked at their "friendship", and what I found was ... there really isn't one.
It's about as deep of a relationship as someone you work with for a couple of years, but I'm not shown anything that reflects a deep level of friendship.

There's joking and prodding, but it's mostly "Oh that kid! Ha! Ha!" attitude from Obi, and Anakin mostly just doing whatever he wants quite a bit without much concern for the impacts upon Obi, at all. Obi doesn't even really show a strong interest in Anakin as a friend. He's not running off like Luke to save Han and Leia. He's more like, "Oh...well...that sucks. I hope that doesn't go bad."
In fact, he openly states, "I hope nothing's happened to him" when he doesn't get a response, but then when he sees that his signal is on Tatooine, he flips immediately to "I told him to stay on Naboo." Boy, that concern and worry went really far.

Anakin does say "He's more like my father.", but there's nothing in this that shows a close bond and connection. Padme is the one that talks Anakin into disobeying his orders and go try to save Obi. And on this point, I'd like to remind that it took no one convincing Anakin to disobey orders to go try to save his mother, and then subsequently wipe out the entire village, including the children. And, again, no one had to convince Anakin to repeatedly disobey orders for his desires regarding Padme.

Obi? He had to be talked into it. Actually, not even talked into it. Padme straight up drug him.

So I'm just not shown anything that's weighted more with them being meaningfully close more than I'm shown them constantly squabbling and Anakin repeatedly just disagreeing with or disobeying every other thing that Obi says. I get that this can be very much a relationship one has with their father, but there's also usually something somewhere that shows a level of deeper love and investment, and I don't really feel like that was very well given in the one bit of dialogue of Anakin just saying that Obi is more like a father.
If I take that line out, I would say I see a relationship that feels more like, at best, a cousin, and more accurately, just a superior at the office who you expect to surpass inevitably later in your career.

So I just don't see anything that's compelling me to see how anything that happens to Obi in this final scene is worth more to Anakin than everything that's already happened. It's more just a final checkbox to getting Anakin in the suit, which...OK. Sure.

And again, I want to be very clear that I graded nothing on the concept of aesthetics of choreography.
That's how most people make their picks. That's the normal approach.

I just happen to go about it a different way because I come from a background of growing up on old swashbuckler films (Captain Blood, Scaramouche, etc...) where the "Bing & Banter" formula is very pronounced and Star Wars derives its original formation of Saber fighting from, quite recognizably in the OT in fact.
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Now...If I went for choreography, my list would be very, very small.

And to be honest as I don't actually personally agree that this fight is very well choreographed if by that I mean that it conveys the subject matter of the objects and their motions and impacts well. There's all sorts of weightless rag-doll issues going on in it, and then there's ... this oddity of ... well ... something...



And the awkward part where Anakin runs himself into Obi's kick.


It's right up there with...* cough *



BUT...and I want to put a huge caveat here.
This is my view of the aesthetics and I am nowhere CLOSE to the majority position on this in the fanbase. I'm just a dude.
There's a ton of folks who love the fight scene for its choreography, regardless of how it sticks out at me like a sore thumb (as does TLJ's Throne room choreography...oof!).

I'll agree that I know too much about Star Wars. lol.
It's an unhealthy habit.


Cheers,
Jayson

 

Too much Star Wars word. I worded my post earlier a little incorrectly. He really has already turned into Darth Vader. I know this. I watched ROTS like 15 times.

but I was talking about the overall emotion in that duel. Anakin is just so evil and Obi Wan has to kill his old friend, his apprentice. Do you understand?

hmmm.... I still thought the fight was very well choreographed but different opinions never really hurt nobody...

 

Also, no problem. Reading your messages are perfect for refreshing my mind on Star Wars, so in fact, it benefits me and isn’t any pain to read your amazing work.

 

Hmm... I’m torn, but I think my personal favorite is Rey and Kylo vs. the Praetorian Guards in The Last Jedi. Battle of the Heroes and Duel of the Fates closely follow because they’re brilliantly choreographed and scored.

 

I like that. Thats a duel I don’t see as people’s favorite yet it is still a great duel. Good one!

 

Really?
It's friggen hugely popular around here. Plenty love the hell out of it.

Cheers,
Jayson