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SPECULATION Beyond Jedi and Sith

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Unaffiliated-Force, Jan 7, 2016.

?

Is it time for a new light side order?

  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Maybe

  4. I don't know

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Unaffiliated-Force

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    So, it's been suggested by some that there are no more "Sith" (at least in title), but that the dark side users we see in VII may be of a unique order. Luke is alleged to be the last Jedi. Snoke is afraid that the Jedi will rise again if Luke returns, but what if Rian Johnson goes in an even fresher direction?

    What if the constant battle between darkness and light manifests in new forms? For example, one thing I think is a bit hypocritical is the Jedi's vow of lifelong celibacy. This may be profitable for padawans, but perhaps not as valuable to the order itself and individuals in the long run as relationships.

    So what if, Instead of Jedi, there emerges light side users with different principles and that value the power of things like romance, family, love, etc...

    I could even imagine Rey getting mentored by a newly enlightened Luke:

    Luke: You have been waiting for family.
    Rey: Yes...how did you...
    Luke: Family is what you have found and what you must build. You must become, not a Jedi, but a new generation; a generation no longer bound by the stringent confines created through the narrow scope of self-righteousness.
    Rey: Are you saying that the Jedi were... wrong?
    Luke: To destroy the Jedi, the Sith's goal is. To exterminate the Sith, the Jedi's purpose is. Both these views are inconclusive. The Jedi value virtues of compassion, mercy, and justice, while the Sith value self-determination, raw power, and order at all costs.
    The dark. The light. Both exist within the force for a reason. What we will bring is redemption... and true balance to the force.

    What are your thoughts on the matter?
     
    #1 Unaffiliated-Force, Jan 7, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
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  2. Bosc

    Bosc Force Sensitive
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    I actually rather like the idea. I think a lot of people have rightfully disassociated Sith and Dark Side users because the Sith were a specific subset or religion that is now extinct, but clearly the Dark Side still exists. While Luke is clearly a Jedi by lineage, he has already embraced a slightly different ideology from the Jedi as we knew them by embracing compassion. And who knows what else he's come up with in the 30 years since Jedi?

    We're already getting a new Dark Side sect... or at least it's a pretty safe bet at this point. So why not an evolution from the Jedi? I like it.
     
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  3. FreddieMac

    FreddieMac Clone Commander

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    I like the idea and direction but I think Jedi is a term used in the SW universe like we use Xerox to describe every type of copy machine. But, I do like the change. I think when I read the ROTS book, Yoda talked about the difference between the Jedi and Sith at that point. The Jedi had spent the last 1000 years becoming static in how they interpreted and used the force. The Sith spent 1000 years finding new ways to use the force. Hence, the could not defeat the Emperor. It would seem the evolution of the Jedi is a warrior like Luke. He used both light and dark techniques, but ultimately had an honor code to live by so that he did not become evil. He had a moral compass and upbringing that really did not lend itself to him becoming a Sith Lord. Luke is just a good person that cares about others more than himself. Anakin was a selfish brat. Big difference. So with this great power, it is really what you do with it that matters most, not how you live your life.
     
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  4. Unaffiliated-Force

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    That's a good point. I didn't consider that Jedi is definitely too big a term to ditch. Thinking of Luke's personal transformation and growth as pointed out by you and @jmjawors , I'm really excited to see what Luke has learned since VI and what impact it'll have on Rey and the Resistance.
     
  5. Leahcim Somar

    Leahcim Somar Rebel General

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    If you listen to the cantina's Resistance radio ep. 19. They talk alot about the force and their views of the SW saga. I feel like they want to keep the the Jedi/Sith history in the past. I feel is that they are following the SW saga. Luke is the last jedi so they are going to continue in that direction for now. Luke tried but failed. now its more of just force driven and lightsabers/Jedi n sith artifacts are rare and help the abilities. I like how its going in that direction and that there might be others in the SW realm that are force sensitve/ force users that use it life and from hearing stories of the past.

    May the force be with you always...
     
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  6. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Just as, in Earth's own human history, there have been and will continue to be a variety of belief systems, movements, philosophies, religions, schools of thought, and formalized practices, there will, in the Star Wars universe almost certainly continue to be a rich variety of Force-sensitive and Force-capable individuals and entities.

    This means there will always be groups interpreting the Force uniquely and exercising various aspects of its mysteries.

    There are and will be levels of awareness and perspectives at work throughout the ages, and the differences of these points-of-view over generations have a limitless potential.

    Which means the Force, as long as it exists, will always experience periods of peace and perturbation.

    Think of it perhaps like water: left alone, water achieves such stillness. Yet wind, a leaf, or a simple stone can send ripples across its surface and banish reflection, if only for moments.

    Consider all the creative and corrosive aspects of water, and the possibilities are indeed endless: what can sustain and sanctify could also submerge, subvert stone, surround. Water is soft yet strong, containable in small amounts but uncontrollable at oceanic scales.

    Yes, the Force is very much like this.

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  7. Unaffiliated-Force

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    Do you mean in the Expanded Universe?

    In the non-canon Star Wars [Expanded] Universe, I agree that there have been a number of different philosophies/systems, etc...but I haven't seen this diversity really materialize in the new Star Wars canon in a non-compartmentalized way. It's been rather narrow between Sith and Jedi.
     
    #7 Unaffiliated-Force, Jan 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
  8. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    In the films, it would probably be too complex to include too much .
     
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  9. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

    i like the idea.. but i wouldn't want it at the cost of the term 'Jedi'. it's special to me and i hope that Luke trains more Jedi's.. as per yoda's request to pass on what he learned.

    i know he's had one epic failure already lol, but if at first you don't succeed...
     
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  10. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I see no reason or logic to go beyond the Jedi Order - both in regard to in-universe reasoning and the story.
    The notion that the Jedi should be allowed to marry, have kids etc just isn't right. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.
    It's not that these things are inherently Dark Side inducing, but that you can't truly serve the Force if you have a family. It might be OK now and again, but on the whole it is just too dangerous.

    What if your wife and kids are in danger? Do you put them first or the will of the Force? And how can you devote your time to serving the Force, if you have the responsibility of dealing with a family? For me a Jedi's life is one of sacrifice for the greater good. That brings its own rewards. But unfortunately, it's just too dangerous to live a family life alongside one as a Jedi.

    Having said all this, I feel that the Jedi of the PT era under Yoda's guidance should adapt slightly.
    Yoda's mistake was in not moving with the times somewhat. I'm not suggesting abandoning the tenants of the Jedi Order but perhaps being aware that the youth of today isn't the same as the youth of Yoda's era. This wasn't necessarily a problem with the majority of the Jedi, but when it came to people like Anakin who required support beyond the usual path of a padawan, it was sorely missing. Essentially, the Jedi needed to be less rigid and listen more to the living force. Again, I am not suggesting they abandon the code, just that they be open to the complex emotional state of some Jedi that requires a different approach.

    I also think that it would be confusing to create another light side Order. The term Jedi is ingrained in Star Wars, far more than terms like Sith.
    And Luke was tasked with restoring the Jedi Order so I can't see him creating a new order.
     
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  11. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    I think that, EU aside and speaking only in terms of now-recognized-canon, that the Star Wars universe almost certainly has more capable Force-sensitive individuals who do not fall under Jedi or Sith classification.

    This is not simply to reference the Gray Jedi (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi) now designated as Legends.

    In terms of strictly canon characters, there are, among others:

    But we could easily imagine, given the size of the Star Wars galaxy (like our own) , there can be any number and kind of past, present, and future practitioners who may come to know the Force in different ways, call it different terms (e.g. chi, qi, physics, The Matrix, quantum mechanics, reality, karma, God, to parallel some relevant Earth-based concepts), and tap into various aspects of the Force all, much like our past and existing philosophical and spiritual traditions and even martial arts knowledge back here on Earth.

    Beyond this, there are already complicated aspects of the Force within the Star Wars universe that suggest even more nuanced interpretations, understandings, practices, and levels of mastery to be attained:

    There are even political interpretations and distinctions to be made: Democrat vs. Republican vs. Independent and others as they work within the more general realm of local vs. global politics.

    Certainly this became apparent even, within the Republic and its Senate and amongst the Jedi Order on Coruscant: politics and politicians and beyond that all the differing perspectives on how one might best rule the galaxy, remembering for a moment Anakin and Padme's conversation on Naboo: http://www.starwarsintheclassroom.com/content/ss/gov/govt_debate.asp

    The ebb and flow of democracies and dictatorships grappling with the phenomenon of power, which perhaps proves to be too great and mysterious for anyone or any group to wield entirely and indefinitely.

    This protracted and seemingly endless struggle -- "the only war," as Maz Kanata pronounces it, has eternal implications for the much-desired balance of the Force.

    For me, all of this is succinctly and infinitely expressed in the simple and elegant symbol of Yin and Yang, which beautifully offers much relevant wisdom and meaning in deeper discussions of the Force and the subsequent dualities of seemingly opposed yet oddly symmetrical (if not co-dependent and/or complementary) ideologies both in the Star Wars universe and our own: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  12. Unaffiliated-Force

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    I feel you. The term Jedi is definitely super iconic. I just find a number of Jedi concepts to be so....ugh. lol

    Really great points, and I agree that the term Jedi is too iconic to replace completely. Although, I think fans could easily adapt if such a change was made.

    From your statements, I can understand the marriage and family situation more now, but I still think there could be a deeper appreciation for and integration of the family into the Jedi system. For example, wouldn't it be one of the easiest ways to carry on the order as a whole? Force sensitivity would likely be more frequent in descendants of force sensitive individuals. Also, if the "Jedi ways" became more of an all-encompassing way of life rather than just a military-esque act of services, using or "serving" the force (as you put it) could be used in everything from everyday yard work to education. Furthermore, if one's family is understood to be not just wife/husband, and children, but the entire Jedi order as a brotherhood, then one's service to the Force would include family as well. I think it just requires a broader sense of vision.

    Agree on the points about adapting to the generation.

    @JediMasterRobert, you just hit the forums and your posts are so in-depth! It's like reading a disciple of Yoda, haha.

    A couple of your first points on characters who could be classified outside Jedi and Sith: Maz Kanata is closer to Jedi than anything. The Nighsisters are dark side users who worked close with the Sith under Talkzin, , and the Inquisitors were used in close connection to the Sith, for the Sith's purposes. None of these individuals/orders were totally independent of Jedi and Sith, but my point was more towards actually progressing the Jedi Order into something more than its most recent iteration. I didn't mean to say that there haven't been any individuals or organizations other than Jedi and Sith.

    Concerning the living and cosmic forces, these things were pretty much coined by Qui-Gon Jinn, Jedi Master.

    The "force" ful dialogue between Anakin and Padme can really be considered one of the Sith ideology newly introduced by Palpatine in Anakin versus the Jedi influence in Padme.

    Furthermore, hasn't the political issue been largely one of an ongoing war of the Jedi and Sith?
     
    #12 Unaffiliated-Force, Jan 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
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  13. Darth Sidious

    Darth Sidious Rebel Official

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    I find that line of thinking creepy and cult-like. People who are in the military in real life have families and it isn't a problem for them. Before AOTC was released, nobody ever said that Jedi shouldn't marry or have kids. I felt like it was an excuse for a "forbidden romance" between Anakin and Padme.
     
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  14. Unaffiliated-Force

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    Lol, very good point.
     
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  15. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Thanks, Unaffiliated-Force.

    If the Sith are truly gone, succeed now, in The Force Awakens, by the Knights of Ren, and if Luke's restoration of the Jedi Order is no longer feasible, this would suggest the struggle between Darkness and Light will find continuation under new identities.

    Sith and Jedi, most objectively speaking, are words representing philosophical disciplines of the Force.

    Within the Sith are those with different opinions and agendas, just as there are among the Jedi. One could imagine, just as in politics, there might be moderate, conservative, liberal, or extremist views within each of these disciplines. Eventually these views branch off and can take on new names and beliefs. Some will fade away, perhaps to be rediscovered or drawn from or misunderstood later.

    The Knights of Ren, especially Kylo Ren, seem draw inspiration from the Sith (e.g. Kylo addressing Vader's helmet and seeking to emulate his grandfather).

    Over many millennia these two opposed orders of the Force can break down into multiple sects and versions, much like what have happened throughout human history in spiritual and philosophical and even martial arts traditions.

    Eventually I can see these permutations leading to entirely new interpretations of the Force, which could be unique enough to evade the Sith or Jedi classification.

    Elsewhere there would be overlap, and even generalists, as in our world where people might not identify with one specific formal religion but rather more generally consider themselves spiritual.

    Others might take a more selective and necessarily eclectic approach, especially if they are aware of past issues. This could inspire a more carefully crafted and stricter approach to a formalized belief system or a less stringent methodology.

    Given the circumstances before and after him, I imagine Luke could have had substantial time, after his protracted absence in The Force Awakens, to contemplate a more open-minded, more carefully created New Order of Light Force users for the future, one which could be more optimal, less rigid so as not to inspire dissent or rebellion from within or to attract external opposition, something which could move beyond the failure points of the Jedi of old and persist, even if it reveals and underscores, in retrospect, that the wisdom of the Jedi was, from a certain point of view, rather overrated and/or misguiding.

    The time is truly ripe for a new understanding of the Force, something which can transcend the binary extremes of emergent believers predestined to disagree while embracing the fuller spectrum of the Force which still, at this stage in the saga, remains deeply veiled in mysteries Yoda et al could only observe in portions, comprehend in part, hint at indirectly, and speak of generally.

    The Force itself likely yearns to be understood: I am so much more than all of this.

    Perhaps the Force will proclaim something of this nature in some way through Luke and Rey.

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  16. Unaffiliated-Force

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    Well said, kind sir...*tilts hat*
     
  17. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    The thing is, I am a complete anti-theist. I think religion is by far a greater force of evil than it is good. I don't like all the celibacy rules it forces upon people nor it's obsession with sex etc. But in this case, we're talking about the Star Wars Universe. And I will also state now that the Jedi and the military are not comparable.

    In the Star Wars Universe there is a little thing called the Force. This can give certain people immense power. And with immense power comes responsibility. If an order such as the Jedi were to train its members then they are providing such people with the means to use this great power. And the whole reason for being Jedi is that they serve the will of the Force. In Star Wars, as we see, if we don't have Jedi devoted to following the will of the Force then we don't have balance and the entire galaxy suffers. What's more, we see what happens when just one being is given access to this power and yet goes on the wrong path. Where one solider that goes bananas can do a fair amount of damage in this world, a Jedi that goes bananas and becomes a Sith can wreak havoc across an entire galaxy!

    So should an order such as the Jedi, that exists to serve the Force and does not force people to be a part of the order, allow its members to marry and have kids? It strikes me that this would create conflict in such Jedi and could both lead them astray and/or take away their focus of their job at hand. As Qui Gon (the enlightened Jedi) tells Anakin: "Training to become a Jedi is not an easy challenge, and even if you succeed, it's a hard life". You have to make great sacrifices. But I am guessing that the reward of serving the Force and bringing peace is the reward that a true Jedi seeks.

    Now this isn't to say that any Jedi that has a family will turn bad. Heck, the Jedi likely view themselves as family.
    But the risks of allowing this for all Jedi means that many more will fail in their duties. Possibly worse.
    The one thing that could be allowed however and possibly should be is that the new Jedi padawans could retain contact with their parents.
    I think a persons development is aided far better by having parents around - whilst at the same time there is a greater ease in which to not be so attached to ones parents. That sounds callous. But what I mean is that it's natural for one to move away from ones parents and find your own path. With a wife/husband and kids it's different. You don't let go of that attachment. The very nature of it is to be attached. If I had to choose between the life of my kids and something that is objectively more important, I'll choose my kids. There's no point in kidding myself.

    Having a famly doesn't mean that it will necessarily lead you into making bad choices but that there is a far greater risk of it. And for a Jedi, the risk is too great.
    What if a Sith Lord kills your family? Would any Jedi be able to refrain from turning evil themselves?
    What if your family is in peril and you have to choose between them and the mission?
    I just think the role of the Jedi is too important to be complicated by a family. It might be a huge sacrifice for them but they can always leave the Order and allow someone else to keep watch...
     
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  18. Irt Malk

    Irt Malk Rebelscum

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    The Jedi will remain, but it will change. As the Jedaii Order became the Jedi Order and changed it`s principals they are still Jedi. It`s a big difference between the Jedi Order during the Old Republic and the prequels. To be a part of the Jedi Order is like being a part of a religion. Religions have changed and reformed during history. Protestantism is a part of christianity but still very diffrent compared to catholicism. Islam and Judaism has also been altered during history.
    To you who says that the Sith has reformed, why can`t the Jedi? The Sith is not as widely known as the Jedi on earth. Someone who has never seen Star Wars will most likely recognize the word "Jedi" but will most unlikely recognize the word "Sith".
     
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  19. Unaffiliated-Force

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    I didn't even know about the Je'daii! Wow, that's pretty interesting and opens the doors to all sorts of possibilities.

    I see your point. I responded to this argument in an earlier post above. I think it just calls for an expansion of perspective of what it means to serve the force.
     
  20. Irt Malk

    Irt Malk Rebelscum

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