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Biggest Misconceptions About Star Wars

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by LadyMusashi, Sep 10, 2021.

  1. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    Obi-Wan definately let Vader beat him. Old Ben literally "passed the torch" (Anakin's lightsabre) on to Luke hours earlier as Obi-Wan knew he was too physically weak and too emotionally tied to Anakin. Remember that Obi-Wan didn't kill Anakin on Mustafar, he walked away after dismembering him.
     
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  2. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    The idea that suicide is a strategic choice for a Jedi knight is way, way off the mark.

    Obi-Wan realised that it was his time to meet his destiny.
     
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  3. daRinze

    daRinze Force Sensitive

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    The strategic choice, @Martoto, is to focus the villain's attention, and not to go to suicide.
    Ben Kenobi did not choose to die : what he chose is to clean the way for Luke, Han and Leia.
    And he won, because the appeal of an easy victory was what lured Vader (remember Vader: "what a great day this day was to witness the end of the rebellion and the death of Kenobi") and prevented him to calmly analyze the situation.

    In fact, Kenobi acted with Vader the way he acted when he faced Maul in the Tatooine desert : a bait, a subtle promise, and an apparent loss - which was in fact a superb win.
     
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  4. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    His death was not necessary to achieve a diversion. If Kenobi could have defeated Vader at that moment he would have. And he would have escaped with the others. Losing to Vader made no difference to the others escape except that it almost foiled it thanks to Luke's outburst. Whether the victory was easy or not, nothing was going to discourage Vader from killing the man he had come to hate. (And it's academic since they were being allowed to escape anyway.)

    What if Vader had "analyzed" the situation? What would he have learned? What would he have done differently? Capture Obi-Wan because it would deny him the power to come back as a disembodied voice, ghost-tutoring somebody in the assault on the Death Star?.... What?

    Obi-Wan died on the Death Star because it was his destiny. He sensed it. It's why he gave Luke a final farewell before going to switch off the tractor beam.
     
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    My read was always that Obi-Wan knew Luke wouldn’t leave without him. He wasn’t knowingly creating a diversion for their escape. He was eliminating Luke’s motivation to linger so the little dope would “run”. That’s just how it makes sense to me. It’s still a sacrifice to enable escape, but not in the same way Luke eventually sacrifices himself on Crait.

    It was never my interpretation that OB had any intent in actually defeating Vader. He simply needed to confront his wayward student. “Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone.” The confrontation would inevitably turn violent because of Vader, but that’s not something he wanted. His death wasn’t necessarily guaranteed, but the most likely outcome and I believe he accepted that before leaving Luke to disable the tractor beam.
     
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  6. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    There's probably a thread about the Obi-Wan/Vader fight. To me that entire sequence doesn't make sense.
    How? Obi-Wan dies, becomes one with the force, and delivers a few lines to Luke over the next few years as a force ghost. Yoda does much of the heavy lifting (no pun intended). What does Obi-Wan actually accomplish in terms of "becoming more powerful?" This is just another example of Lucas making it up as he goes along. I know for a time George thought about brining Obi-Wan back to life in the 3rd film which kind of would have made more logical since (in regards to the "more powerful" quote). The whole force ghost thing remains rather light in details. It's one area the sequel trilogy could have explored. I suspect that's something Lucas would have explored more of... it might not have been very entertaining though.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I feel like that’s the answer right there. "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." The Force is the most powerful essence in the universe. It’s connected to all life and is virtually endless. To become part of that and retain who you are within it, that’s not something someone like Vader can possibly conceive of.

    He views “power” as a tool to be wielded. It’s immediate and material. And it’s only the tip of an unimaginable iceberg. What Obi-Wan is talking about is the unfathomable depths that lay below that surface. Not to lift heavy objects with his brain or choke a middle manager in a staff meeting, but to become a part of nature itself. To consciously transcend his physical body and become one with “the energy between all things”.

    For Vader, “power” equals strength. For Obi-Wan, “power” equals enlightenment. That’s what I believe the saddened teacher is trying to impart to his lost pupil as one last lesson.
     
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  8. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    True, but you left out the part about Anakin being on fire.

    I think you’re right that Obi-Wan didn’t want to kill Anakin by his own hand, but I also think Obi-Wan expected Anakin to die and was prepared to let it happen.
     
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  9. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I think it's a bit unfair to call Obi Wan's death a "suicide". It's a sacrifice.

    In that moment, Obi Wan states that striking him down would make him more powerful that leaving him alive. I think we need to not focus on how this prevents Obi Wan from wielding a lightsaber and continuing to wack stormtroopers with it, because Star Wars is pretty clear that that isn't a Jedi's greatest power. Instead, Obi Wan knows that by becoming one with the Force, he can continue to mentor Luke.

    Let's say Obi Wan defeated Vader, beating him in the saber fight. I guess you probably need to consider that it would probably take time to beat Vader (their last fight on Mustafar went on forever, after all). All that time, stormtroopers are swarming the Falcon, but Luke might be trying to get Han to keep the Falcon grounded to save Ben. Then, after Ben finally defeats Vader, he has to fight his way through a growing army of stormtroopers, and that's even if the Falcon hasn't been thoroughly vaporized at that point.

    But even then, I think you really have to look at the whole of the trilogy in this instance, not just the specific moment on the Death Star. Obi Wan, with the wisdom of a Jedi, knew that Luke needed his guidance. By becoming one with the Force, he was able to be with Luke and guide him to destroying the Death Star. He was able to guide Luke to Dagobah. And, I imagine, he probably served as a massive inspiration to Luke as well.

    It's kinda like Coulson's death in Avengers, but if Coulson was able to also communicate with Stark and help him shoot rockets through the portal above NYC too.

    So I don't know if Obi Wan couldn't necessarily beat Vader in a one on one fight. And it seems that maybe the odds were stacked against him beating Vader and also saving the rest of the Falcon's passengers, which certainly adds a difficult variable to tackle. But in the end, I think the big thing is that thinking about it as "Death" at all kinda defeats the point. It's an ascension.
     
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  10. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    The reason I brought it up is that letting him win is the excuse that people sometimes give for Vader being able to defeat Obi-Wan at all. Theoretically Obi-Wan is still the stronger Jedi than Anakin was. This is why Anakin wasn't able to defeat him before. If anything the match should be more in Obi-Wan's favour since Vader is more machine than man (and this explains why he was never able to threaten Sidious's position of power) and the age difference isn't that great. People explain that Obi-Wan had to let Vader defeat him. So therefore it was Obi Wan's choice that he would die in that confrontation instead of winning and escaping like he was definitely capable of. And that he chose to die at Vader's hand in order to achieve the greater power he spoke about.

    I think that the whole Vader being severely weakened by his defeat on Mustafar is not something George ever had in mind until during or after the prequels. It's quite clear that we are meant to interpret Vader vs Obi-Wan in ANH as a mismatch in Vader's favour. "You're powers are weak, old man" "You should not have come back." To which Obi-Wan replies that this does not bother him.

    When Vader says to Tarkin "Escape is not his plan." He's referring to the fact that Obi-Wan's presence is a diversion from the rescue that is taking place. And that Obi-Wan must know that any confrontation with his old pupil will be his last one. (Remember the plan to let the rebels who came to find Leia lead them to the rebels has already been hatched.)

    Obi-Wan sensed that he was approaching his destiny. He anticipated that he would confront Vader and that there would be one outcome if he did. But that's not the same as declining an opportunity to finish Vader off and instead let him win in order to obtain a strategic power up by it. Like deliberately losing your last few games in the regular season so you get first pick in the draft or something,
     
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I thought it was Anakin’s pride that defeated him. “You underestimate my power.” “Don't try it.” He tried it. He lost. Anakin overestimated his own power, believing the darkside had made him superior. He was wrong. Wrong and very very crispy.
    I just have a different view. Vader thinks this is a rematch. He showed up for a fight. He’s thinking of things in terms of strength. Obi-Wan isn’t there for any stick whacking. He’s there for a reckoning with his greatest defeat: losing his apprentice to evil.

    However strong he is, however powerful, whether or not he could actually win – it’s totally irrelevant. That’s not why he’s there. Fate or destiny or the Force or whatever, put him in the same place as the person who represents his life’s central regret. He wasn’t just going to leave without facing him, even if it meant his dying. It was something he had to do.

    Again, just my interpretation. I believe there’s waaaaaaay more going on in that exchange than people give credit.
     
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  12. daRinze

    daRinze Force Sensitive

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    The upcoming ObiWan live action serie has promised "the rematch of the century" and called back to Ewan and Hayden. It's no more a secret.
    I guess the result of their meeting will will totally change this conversation. :)
     
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  13. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Well yeah. That still means he wasn't good (powerful/skillful/mindful) enough to defeat Obi-Wan. If he had been then he would likely have won and not made the mistake that allowed his old master to disarm and disleg him.

    Then we would seem to broadly agree on both those points. (Although I don't think Obi-Wan had been anticipating a definitive showdown at this particular time and place, I'm sure he was prepared for it and sensed its approach, Hence his goodbye to Luke). I think the only difference is that my emphasis is on disputing the notion that Vader would/could not have beaten Obi-Wan in that duel unless Kenobi chose to let him win.
     
    #73 Martoto, Sep 30, 2021
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  14. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    It’s just that I see that scene in ROTS as a practical reinforcement of the same thread concerning Padmé. He’s unwilling to accept the reality that he’s not “all powerful”. There are limitations that he can’t surmount, but he barrels forward anyway believing that his hatred will enable him to defy those limitations. In the end though he’s fundamentally wrong and all that mindset results in is tragedy and suffering. In one instance, it’s physical suffering. In the other, it’s emotional suffering. But it’s the same thing.

    In both cases, the heart of the matter isn’t whether or not Anakin possesses the power to fulfill his aims, it’s the inherently self-destructive means he employs to reach those aims. He ultimately brings it on himself. He is the source of his own suffering. Obi-Wan doesn’t defeat him so much as Anakin defeats himself. It isn’t because he’s weaker or stronger in relation to his opponent.
    Yeah, I think we agree there. Obi-Wan isn’t setting out in search of Vader. He’s doing what he said he would do: disable the tractor beam so the Falcon can escape. In his infinite wisdom, he didn’t bring a comm device, so the only way to let them know he’d done it would be to walk his sand covered fanny back there and tell them. That’s where the old coot was headed to when Vader intervenes.

    We know Vader sensed OB. We can assume OB felt the same. So it was only a matter of time until they ran into each other and Obi-Wan knew that. There was a good chance he wouldn’t make it back, hence the finality of his departure from Luke.
    Sorry, it’s probably on me that I’m being so particular. I don’t see that scene as being at all about who can beat who. Would/could Vader beat Obi-Wan? I’m not sure why that matters. Obi-Wan isn’t trying to beat Vader and, however much he might want to, Vader can’t truly beat Obi-Wan. He can only destroy his body, which the Jedi has already made his peace with.

    It’s like asking the question: If Luke, in TLJ, had actually gone to Crait, could he have kicked Kylo’s ass? Which, I guess, folks could have a detailed and drawn out theoretical discussion about, but since that’s expressly not the point of how that exchange resolves, I sort of don’t see the overall value in it. But that’s me.
    Yeah, that line made me scratch my head. Uh, guys, those two already had a rematch. It was in the first movie. Remember? :confused:
     
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  15. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Yeah the twin scene scene in TLJ is about Luke denying Kylo the dubious prize of striking him down in anger (while avoiding the even more disastrous possibility of destroying his nephew). I love that.
     
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  16. Dryden Valiance

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    I think one of the biggest misconceptions about Star Wars is the "flaw" exhaust port of the first Death Star. Many people think it was a stupid mistake and praise Rogue One for fixing the "plot hole". But it's not a plot hole, it's never been a plot hole. Only Luke could make that shoot, no one else in the Galaxy and that's because he uses the Force. Obi Wan literally said to him "Use the Force, Luke" but people think it was just a supporting phrase.
     
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  17. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    In my opinion, this idea also illustrates a major flaw with the ST. Only Luke could have destroyed the Death Star, only Luke could have redeemed Vader, and we are given a very clear depiction of Luke’s journey and why he is able to do things that no one else can. Even other characters like Han, Lando, and Leia have at least some reasons why they specifically are doing various things.

    In the ST, Poe blows up Starkiller - just because, I guess. If there is some reason why only Poe could do it, it is never explained onscreen. I know Poe is a good pilot, but what makes him unique and superior? In fact, most of the things Finn and Poe do in the ST could be reassigned to other characters and it wouldn’t make that much of a difference.

    Finn does have a little bit of uniqueness since he is a former stormtrooper with knowledge of Imperial craft, but this doesn’t really work out anyway. His Force-sensitivity could also be a unique quality, but it is unclear if he ever even used that ability during the ST.
     
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  18. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    KYLO REN: l had no idea we had the best pilot in the Resistance on board.

    Poe blows up the oscillator by making a difficult maneuver. He's probably not the only Resistance pilot that could have done it, but it was his command, so why wouldn't he?
     
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  19. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    But the question is, why is Poe the best? Why does Finn defect against the First Order? What experiences and training have they gone through that make them so special?

    There is a difference between showing the trials Luke goes through to become special and important, and just putting in the opening crawl “Poe is the bestest best!”
     
  20. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I’m not sure I understand. Poe is the best for the same reason anyone else is considered to be the best at something. Assumedly, he has a natural talent that’s been cultivated through practice. He isn’t a miraculous and inexplicably skilled pilot. He made himself that way. We don’t have any reason to think otherwise. What am I missing? That we didn’t get a detailed breakdown of his flight hours logged with the New Republic?
    For the reason presented in the movie I would expect. During his first ever battle, he recognized what the FO was doing was wrong and refused to participate. I guess the Force helped him see it, but the point is that he saw it. Finn says this in the film.
    What experiences and training did Han and Leia go through to make them so special? The answer is: it doesn’t matter. That they’re both skilled and capable individuals in their own way is an aspect of their characterization. It doesn’t demand an explanation. We can assume they had lives before the events of the movie.
    The difference is that Poe isn’t the protagonist of the story. It’s not his journey we’re on. We’re told he’s the best pilot. That’s an aspect of his character. His actions, as necessary to the incident of the plot, then provide supporting evidence for that claim. What more do we need?

    Maybe I'm just not getting what you're saying.
     
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