Biggest problem: Kylo does not regret his evil acts at all!

exactly. it's the thinking that it needs to be undone or erased in order to him to be forgiven that's the fallacy. ; D

 

JJ has to put some different spin on Kylo Ren’s arc for Episode 9 as it can’t be about his redemption. That’s what ROTJ is about as it will be such a wasted opportunity for this new Trilogy as it will really look like a retread of the OT.

 

Sometimes watching Kylo Ren he remember me Al Pacino in Scarface.

When someone have the "vision" and "feel" to have POWER they follow they instinct and do what is need to do to reach that goal.No matter what it takes to get there.There is "something" in Ben that Leia ALWAYS feels that he still have light on him BUT when he get angry....He changes.He has a bipolar personality problem and that is dangerous.That's WHY Leia send him to Luke because he has so much of Vader in him.Anakin in some way has that "angry" problem too.Yoda said....."Hate and anger is path to the dark side".Luke said...."I fail you Ben". As a teacher as his uncle Luke try to "Fix" him BUT remember what Luke told to Leia....."I can't save him".YES.....I think Kylo will die BAD in a Scarface style.Where that planet earth in the picture below said "The world is YOURS" for Kylo Ren will be "The Galaxy is Mine".....

 

My take on it is that at the end when they see each other through the force and Rey closes the Falcon door on Kylo, that's establishing that they realize they were connected themselves and she's choosing to close herself off from him. At that point Snoke is dead but they can still see each other...He says "I can see my apprentice's mind" but maybe that's all. He just observes his thoughts and then uses what he knows to manipulate Kylo's emotions, not actually controlling his mind directly. He can see Kylo turn the lightsaber, but he can't make him turn it.

 

How will you survive if kylo ren gets redemption?
I worry about you, my friend. You should not stress about it that much...it will be what will be, I don't think any of us can change the story as it was set.
I know it is Star Wars but it is still just a movie

 

Ben is like this:

He commits atrocity. He regrets it, but his mind says he should overcome such regret, all for the greater purpose.

 

Unless he forgives he won't be redeemed. Unforgveness is driving his hate, but without Snoke to goad him anymore it will be interesting if he will stray from that manipulation. He doesn't necessarily have to though. I personally believe he will hold onto that and become quite powerful until he and the FO are brought down or maybe they do something different and will be true balance and co-exist.

 

Going into 9, my problem is this - I don't want Kylo to be redeemed right after the events of TLJ, because at this moment he is peak evil. He's such a great villain. He's crossing over from being a Vader wannabe to actually being the new Vader, yet there still is this struggle and complexity to him. He definitely DOES regret his evil actions, that's one of the most fundamental parts of his character. I could see him turning and redeeming himself in one movie, but I think that would be a waste of what they've created with him. At the same time, however, I can't see how the saga can end in a satisfying way without the redemption of this trilogy's Skywalker.

What I'd like to see is Kylo not redeemed in 9, but maimed and nearly killed like Vader was. Then he escapes with the KOR to a distant part of the galaxy. Order is restored to some degree, but the threat of Kylo remains out there, setting up another trilogy where we will see the KOR and Rey's knights in full swing as two opposing light / dark force factions and Kylo Ren will return as a part mechanical monster just like his grandfather. The whole thing becomes a 12 part epic and he is eventually redeemed by his own child, who he raises as a dark knight but then defects to the light side and joins Rey (and perhaps her kid, etc). I love Adam Driver in this role, and I'd love to see the character really fleshed out. Daisy Ridley too. Make them as important as Anakin and Luke and flesh them out over 6 movies.

I just think that keeping the saga open ended sets up a lot of cool potential. In-between trilogies you could have some pretty cool TV series that fill in the gaps. Imagine a live action series about Rey's new order and the students at her academy. It could start out as a sort of high school drama with lightsabers, and expand into greater things. Specific Knights of Ren could appear as villains on the show, creating cool backstories and setting them up to appear in 10,11,12. The main character in the final trilogy could be introduced in the series, the big bad threat to the galaxy that ties everything together could be set up, we could get more explanation of how the prophecy of the chosen one ties in, etc etc.

You could also have some pretty awesome tie in video games where you play as the Knights of Ren. It could show them escaping to some unknown part of space, claiming territory and rebuilding power. Or you're tasked by Kylo to hunt down specific jedi. Imagine dark souls but with lightsabers. Something like that.

Just thinkin...

 

I understand.

But you have to acept the things you can't change. Things that are out of your hands. Things that were done by other people.

Most assuredly to not share your pain in public. This world is full of people that will gloat over it if they disagree with you.

I disliked many things in TLJ. But I accept it. Not much we can do LOL...you know...there is an old saying among my people that goes something like this: Nothing happens to anyone that he is not fitted by nature to bear.

 

I agree with a lot of your points but in the same vein, I worry for the people who are equally adamant that redemption is the only option for Kylo as well.

I don't think its been confirmed anywhere which direction episode 9 will finally take, and what ending might be considered good story telling is honestly subjective...at the end of the day some group will have to steel themselves for bad news.

So I agree with you- episode IX's outcome is something we as the audience cannot change and it is out of our hands, whether Kylo gets redeemed or not.

 

This is the last place I would expect anyone to be judged for their excessive attachment to Star Wars...

Redemption is certainly not a given. Episode IX could have Kylo live or die bad and still be a great instalment. I personally trust JJ and Terio. I’m sure JJ will not allow anything jarring or inconsistent. Also, I hope he plants the seed for the story of these new characters to be continued in the future. We haven’t really had enough of Rey, Kylo, Poe and Finn. There must be more after episode IX.

 

I do agree nothing is a given at this point.
And things are out if our hands no matter how entitled we all feel to our prefered final outcomes, not just on kylo but on everything.
What is in our hands, however, is how we are going to deal with it. And in both instances:
1. If we do not get what we hoped, are we going to accept it or throw tantrums with public declarations of 'I am quitting fandom' type
2. If we do get what we wanted are we going to accept it or gloat and bully those who didn't.

If you say so.

I agree. Nothing is given.
And I too have faith in Abrams doing justice to the story in general and to Kylo specifically. Whichever route they chose, I am fine with it if it makes a good story and develop his charachter farther away from this petulent brat we have seen at the end of 8. (I liked kylo's portrayal prior to finale of the throne room fight)

 

Whatever as long as he goes deeper into the darkness than any before him for many years before any redemption arch.

He is too far down the path to lamely backtrack, he needs to go on through the heart of darkness now.

 

Forgive me if I already said this, but I don't want him to be redeemed. I think you are the only person that does. People are tired of the redemption angle in this franchise.

 

I swear you exist to infuriate me. How many years of Darth Vader's life did we NOT see and can only assume how many people he personally or ordered to be killed? He wasn't sorry for anything until ROTJ and we haven't seen the 3rd film in the ST yet because they haven't even started filming!

If you think Kylo Ren/Ben Solo has no issue with murdering his father, I beg you to go back and re-watch TFA and pay CLOSE attention to his face after Han falls off the bridge. It shows that he's shocked to the core at what he, himself has just done. In TLJ, he then goes on to tell Rey in a force bond scene that he did NOT hate Han Solo and hesitates to kill his own mother when he has the perfect chance. Then he kills Snoke instead of Rey, because he loves her, one way or another. After he was rejected by Rey, he feels alone once again (for probably the millionth time) and rages on behalf of the dark side, duh.

I didn't see Vader being kind or changing his tune UNTIL THE VERY END of the OT.

 

It struck me last night that Kylo Ren's motivation isn't that dissimilar to Thanos':

Spoiler: Avengers spoilers

Both believe the galaxy requires "rebalancing". Kylo believes there needs to be order. Thanos wants half the population dead so the rest live more easily or something.

Both have to sacrifice the ones they love in order to fulfil their destiny and become more powerful.

Both sell their souls as a result of the above.

My hope is that Ren isn't defeated by Force, but that his pov is changed. Otherwise, there isn't a very good redemptive message playing out.

 

I think he regrets every act, but fights his emotions and empathy for his victims. It is part of his effort to "kill the past" in order to become "what he is meant to be". But Kylo is perverted enough to understand that his naturally innate emotions and empathy for his victims can also be weaponized. Whether it's Solo or Rey, Ren will use his weaponized empathy to get whatever he wants. He will regret it, but won't regret tugging that regret away somewhere in the back of his mind. He dehumanizes himself to dehumanize his victims. His emotions are tools and his victims are tools as well. "Necessary evil" is what best describes Kylo Ren's psychology.

From a narrative standpoint Kylo Ren's psychology is experienced by our heroes, and as such the audience, as 'unpredictable' and hence 'dangerous'.

Kylo's redemptive will most likely be to kill himself and "destroy of all it".

 

i disagree and this is why (see my edit to your spoiler tag).
but it could just be the fault of the storytelling and not that they are actually that much dissimilar. XD

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