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Boy, does TPM stink

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by kuatorises, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. Angelman

    Angelman Jedi General

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    Alien3 was slaughtered by company meddling and stupid board of directors editing. You’ve got to see the Assembly Cut of Alien3, which portray a story that actually make sense and is exciting to watch. With the Assembly Cut, Alien3 became my 2nd most favorite film in the franchise (with Alien obviously being the favorite :D ).

    This, I feel, is an oft overlooked fact. Limitations and constraints fosters creativity and a streamlined production, while the everything-is-possible attitude to CGI makes for lazy & no-challenge productions when done wrong. I definitely feel that Lucas sacrificed story and quality to getting 100% what he wanted with CGI as a tool. If it were not for the PT there wouldn’t exist CGI at the level we have today, and as you suggests neither would we have VFX at its current level, but it is a shame that it was Star Wars that had to suffer to get us there. It feels like no one would or could stand up to Lucas during the PT production, and I’m sure a lot of unnecessary & undeserving issues would have disappeared if there were. Lucas is gold when edited.

    I just wanna chime in real quick and note that the modern close-ups-&-fast-cutting method of doing fight scenes doesn't work so well in TPM either; see the initial Qui-Gon vs. Maul fight on Tatooine... there's a lot of flowing robes blocking action being filmed there!


    Personally, I like TPM quite a lot and it is easily my favorite PT film (and only PT film that feels even remotely SW to me). That said, it is sad and annoying that with the PT we didn’t get the quality of film (in all respects) that Star Wars deserves.
     
    #81 Angelman, Jul 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
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  2. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    You know, it wasn't like it was pizza and ice cream and while on the side making a Star Wars movie for fun. This wasn't a walk in the park. They still put blood, sweat and tears into this. Watch any of the documentaries for the prequels. I bet you'll be having a hard time saying "no" to to Lucas even if you know it's wrong.
     
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  3. Angelman

    Angelman Jedi General

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    Absolutely. Yet, people did, a lot, during OT productions.
     
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  4. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Except George wasn't necessarily the famous filmmaker during the OT era.
     
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  5. Angelman

    Angelman Jedi General

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    Obviously. I don't understand what you're objecting to or questioning here. The fact that Lucas got huge is obviously the reason why no one could or would stand up to him during PT production. Was I being confusing in the above posts?
     
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  6. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Well, you certainly made it sound like you would have been able to say "no".
     
  7. Angelman

    Angelman Jedi General

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    What? I said nothing of the kind, sir. I said: "It feels like no one would or could stand up to Lucas during the PT production, and I’m sure a lot of unnecessary & undeserving issues would have disappeared if there were. Lucas is gold when edited." Nowhere did I indicate that _I_ would have been able to stand up to power-trip Lucas; in fact, being conflict shy, I'll guarantee that I would NOT have said "no" to the guy. I just wished someone had so that we could've got the quality trilogy that Lucas' OT legacy deserved.
     
    #87 Angelman, Jul 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    It is a shame, but don't think it was easy for them.
    It might be easy for directors to outsource much of their film today (not easy for vfx teams, but for directors/producers), but it was almost entirely being invented by the PT.
    We have the first full digital character attempted based on ealier strides with things like Young Sherlock Holmes' stained glass knight, and Jurassic Park's dino running.
    VFX folks today can easily tear apart how these were done, but it's always worth noting that it took a lot of figuring things out to make the CGI work in the PT.
    The best stuff is a mix between the two.
    The big city shots with waterfalls? Water is salt being poured and layered over the CGI city because you couldn't render water that reactively and granular yet.

    I think that speaks volumes as to where they were at. And let's not forget how rubbery Matrix 2 and 3 looked when they tried to jump into the fuller CGI solution to limitations.

    The best is both. Practical + Digital.
    The PT is where everyone found the pitfalls of CGI because it was bold enough to try to do things like have actors fighting characters who weren't on set. No mainstream studio was good with that at the time. Now it's not unusual.

    The problem is what I said before. The OT was pushing a 40 year old craft to its absolute limit.
    The PT was breaking in a 20 year young craft to its running speed for the first time.

    I think it's easy to fall into thinking that cgi is easy.
    It's not. It's easier today than then, but it's not easy.
    It's easy for the director and producers. That's all.
    Nearly 50% of a film cast is now vfx companies; often half a dozen to a dozen or more vfx companies per film (watch the credits of the next new film you see).
    There's just a huge list of names per company.

    See, the thing is; it's not easy. They just throw bodies at it and work insane hours to get it done (for, not always, very much money).
    In fact, one reason films love vfx is because almost all vfx isn't unioned, so the cost is far cheaper because no one care how many hours anyone works - just do it (and there's a lot of unpaid overtime in vfx).

    So part of what makes vfx "easy" is like what made Russia's WWII military "good". Body count.

    It's a style choice. Lucas went for the old Swashbuckling film blocking. Grab Captain Blood and watch the fights in there as an example.
    It's very much the same camera work as most of the PT fights.
    The problem is the year, and the odd juxtaposition of martial arts spinny action which communicates modern film language, mashed with camera blocking for fights from the mid and late 1930's.
    It can be a confusing mix.

    There's other issues about just swinging lightsabers around, but that's a different subject.

    I agree.
    I think if Lucas was doing them now, they would be quite different and a lot more polished.

    Story would be the same, and so would the writing, but the look would be pretty well improved.

    That said. Every vfx artist I know thinks the pod race is really well done.
    (And of course, that was Practical + Digital)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  9. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    As someone who does genuinely enjoy TPM well enough, as well as the prequels...

    I do wonder how the films would've benefitted by less Yes Men around Lucas. Like, I wouldn't complain if they ended up being even better.
     
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  10. Angelman

    Angelman Jedi General

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    Of course it wasn't easy to do the CGI that Lucas demanded, and if I remember the bts vids correctly, they did abandon scenes and sequences because the work just wasn't feasible. What is easy is dreaming up stuff for CGI to pull off, and leaving it to the artists to figure out how.
     
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  11. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    What are you trying to say? That if Lucas had less "yes men", the Prequel Trilogy would have possessed the kind of black-and-white mentality that many Star Wars fans had wanted the trilogy to have? Because they couldn't deal with the trilogy's moral ambiguity?
     
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  12. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    Where in his post did he imply this? Love ‘em or hate ‘em, the prequels had their problems just like the originals and sequels and it’s no secret that George pretty much always got his way with these movies. I would agree with @cawatrooper that these problems could have been ironed out and made the films better overall.

    Honestly, I’m surprised that this thread is still even active. Unlike the beginning of TPM, these negotiations were not short. :D
     
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  13. Steven Lewis

    Steven Lewis Clone Commander

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    Ironically the ST suffered the same. Needed someone to say NO to Starkiller and other obvious rehashed moments from the OT. While I agree there is a need for the rhymes etc that the Saga contains, you can do this with original concepts.
     
  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Maybe.

    I'm not sure we can necessarily compare Lucas's unilateral decision making to anything that ultimately ends up being suboptimal in hindsight.
     
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  15. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel General

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    I thought it was fun.
     
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  16. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    Disney in the 70's through 80's.

    *shivers*

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  17. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi Commander

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    The problem is what I said before. The OT was pushing a 40 year old craft to its absolute limit.
    The PT was breaking in a 20 year young craft to its running speed for the first time.
    - Jayson

    Very good point
     
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  18. LagothZanta

    LagothZanta Clone

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    What the heck, I'll jump into this....

    I'm not a big fan of TPM or AOTC. I actually find them hard to watch because of the acting, dialogue, pacing, etc, and I certainly have been enjoying the ST more. But what I will say in defense of the PT is that there seemed to be a level of originality and craftsmanship that's missing from the ST. I don't necessarily like all of the PT's designs, but I admire the work that went into them. With the ST, they played it safe and gave us X-Wings, TIE fighters, AT-ATs, etc, with only very minor modifications. The planets of the ST are mostly barren places with no great sense of architecture, a far cry from developed worlds of the PT, like Naboo, Kamino, etc. The costumes of the ST are mostly simplistic updates to what we saw in the OT, while the PT costumes clearly required much more thought and effort.
    So while I find the ST much more fun to watch (largely because of the characters, acting, dialogue, pacing, etc), I have a bit more admiration for the amount of effort and thought that went into creating the world of the PT. Again, there were definitely some designs that, for me, weren't great, but at least they tried.
     
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  19. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    Relevant:



     
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  20. Messi

    Messi Force Sensitive

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    I kind of agree. At least TPM is the best prequel. But I can find a lot of good momments in the movie. The soundtrack for example is one of my favorites.
     
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