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Can IX conclude the saga?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Jaxxon, Sep 9, 2018.

?

Can IX conclude the saga in a satisfying way?

  1. Yes, it's right on track

    10 vote(s)
    20.8%
  2. Yes, but it will be tough

    29 vote(s)
    60.4%
  3. No, not a chance

    9 vote(s)
    18.8%
  1. ObieKenobie

    ObieKenobie Rebelscum

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    I don't know if this selfish vs selfless is right, because Anakin's actions aren't exactly selfish in the PT. He's willing to give up everything he has fought for to save Padme. In a very real way he is sacrificing himself to save Padme. What Anakin does in ROTS is without a doubt wrong, but I'm not sure it's selfish. I think the right way to think about it is something like this: Padme is ready and willing to sacrifice herself for what she believes in: the Republic, Democracy, Freedom, etc. But Anakin is willing to destroy all those things to save her. What's wrong with this (besides the obvious fact that support Space Fascism is always bad) is that in destroying the things that Padme is will to die for in order to save her, Anakin is fundamentally disregarding who Padme is as a person, which is completely incompatible with true love. Of course, Anakin really does love Padme, but he lacks the wisdom and emotional fortitude to do what true love demands of him.

    Luke makes the same mistake in ESB. Just as Padme was ready and willing to die to save Democracy, Han and Leia are willing to die to restore it. Luke learning the ways of the Jedi is the Rebellions best hope for achieving that goal, and yet he's willing to abandon that mission to save Han and Leia. His actions have the same problem has Anakin's: his love for his friends leads him to act against his friends' own wills, in direct contradiction of what love demands.

    In ROTJ neither really corrects this mistake. Indeed, Luke almost makes it again: when Vader threatens to turn Leia to the dark side, Luke almost turns to the dark side himself to stop it. Neither let’s someone they love die for what they believe in. Granted, neither really finds themselves in a situation that warrants that decision. But they don’t prove that they’ve learned Yoda’s lesson from ROTS: “Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.”

    When Luke asks Yoda if he should sacrifice Han and Leia to complete his training. He thinks this is a rhetorical question and is surprised when Yoda responds, “If you honor what they fight for…yes.” They struggle to see that sacrificing the ones they love is, in these cases, not just the right thing to do, but the loving thing to do. Anakin and Luke couldn’t bring themselves to make this sort of difficult and seeming paradoxical decision.

    I think that in order to redeem himself in Episode IX Ben needs to learn this lesson. He needs to be able to love and at the same time be able to let go of those he loves for the sake of that love.
     
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  2. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Pity? To each their own, I guess... For me Kylo's fate, his interactions with Hux, Rey and the KOR are the things which keep me invested in IX.

    Well, Harrison Ford said the same thing back in the 1980s...
     
    #22 NinjaRen, Sep 12, 2018
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  3. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Turn her to dark side all wrinkled and grey. Then anyone can play Rey.
     
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  4. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    That’s precisely what Vader does actually. He gives up his darkness; his pain, his hate, his desire to corrupt his son; to dethrone his master; to bring order to the galaxy. He throws everything out. All those selfish, evil ambitions and his life along with them, so he could save his son and (ultimately) himself.

    That’s not truly analogous to the Padme situation though. That was a path motivated by potentiality. He had a vision of her death. A vision that only came true because of his attempts to prevent it from coming true. She was never in any immediate danger save for the danger he created. It was manifest destiny. Luke though was in direct peril. He was absolutely going to die without his father’s intervention. Similar concepts, and are supposed to be, but the distinction is significant to the larger story.
    Tall order at this point I feel :)
     
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  5. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    I have high hopes that Episode IX will be the best of this trilogy as Revenge of the Sith was the best of the prequels. I feel it all hinges on how Kylo Ren/Ben Solo
    is handled.
     
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  6. Sparafucile

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    A few points.

    I would argue that Han and Chewie were ready to die for the Rebellion at his point. I'm fairly certain Leia was, but though Han and Chewie were ready to fight for it, I think it's debatable whether or not they ever truly considered laying down their lives in this way and if they'd be okay if their friends didn't at least try to intervene. Maybe I'm thinking too much old Han from ANH, but I'm not convinced he fully changed by Empire. Han just doesn't strike me as that guy who'd be okay becoming a martyr, I doubt he even really contemplated the possibility of dying in this war. I always got the impression he had that youthful belief that he was going to live for ever. I also think Luke knew more about his friend and to Luke Yoda's words didn't ring true to him when he answered. I'm not saying Yoda was necessarily wrong, but without knowing the people involved, Yoda was taking a bit of a leap.

    Another point, yes, Luke made the mistake in Empire, but I believe by RotJ he had learned that lesson. He left Leia and Han to do what needed to be done, whatever fate that may be. He essentially did the opposite form what he had done in ESB. He embraced Yoda's teachings. Yes, he stumbled at Vader's threat, but I think that's partly because he was afraid that Leia wasn't ready to face him in such a capacity, certainly not Vader and the Emperor and their manipulations. Luke did not want Leia to fall to the dark side, at least as much because he knew she would never want that either.

    So I believe Luke did learn the lesson. It may have been forgotten after the failure of his academy and his time on Ach-to, but at some point he had grasped it. I believe Anakin grasped it too at the very end, but all he had to give at this point was his life. As for Ben, I haven't seen anything that demonstrates even a will to want to grasp such an idea. He wholly rejects the thought is my perception of him. I'm not sure if he can ever come to that conclusion.

    Vader had children. Luke had a parent and sibling. Ben has no sibling, he killed his father and unfortunately Carrie isn't around to fulfill the role of Leia, and I really doubt they have the footage to make it happen. So Ben has no family and from what I can tell no one he has any real bond with, save maybe his sick sadistic infatuation with Rey. There's only one of two strings for JJ to pull from to turn Ben back to the light, and the first is Rey, and many fans don't want that. I'm sure the writers can devise a story that can make it believeable, but it will face some criticism. The other is him giving his life to save Leia, not a direct confrontation with Leia. The only other characters I can imagine him having any connection with are R2, 3PO, Lando and Chewie, and so far we haven't seen anything to show Ben has any sentiment towards them, so that would be a stretch.

    Or Ben dies disgraced (or redeemed through giving his life), and Rey is the light moving forward taking with her Luke's teachings. Which I think is likely.

    Edit: Or, on the other hand, they go where no SW has gone before, and let the trilogy end with Rey and Kylo going dark and the galaxy under tyrannical rule. Or Rey dying and Kylo rules with his temper tantrums. Either choice would make for a twist few believe will happen, even if it's been theorized before.
     
    #26 Sparafucile, Sep 13, 2018
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  7. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    Not done before? That's exactly what happens in RoTS lol
     
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  8. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    anyone remember the days when we'd put 'respectfully i disagree' instead of nasty sarcasm?

    respectfully - i disagree with the way you speak to people on here
    :)
     
    #28 Maximus, Sep 13, 2018
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  9. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Unfortunately in today’s society respecting other people’s opinions and point of view, especially ones that are different from their own, is practically nonexistent. It is a sad thing really.
     
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  10. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    it is sad, but you know what? we don’t have to accept it.
    I never will, and i will challenge it wherever I see it.

    my reply that you quoted was way too personal and I’m annoyed with myself for posting it.. I apologise @CTrent29. I did not like your post, but my reply was excessive.

    :)
     
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  11. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    You're right, but I think there is a distinction here. In the PT, it ends, but we know how the OT ends, so the bad guys "winning" doesn't have the same effect. If done in this trilogy, without knowing what's coming next, it would be more shocking and drive more speculation.
     
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  12. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    Nah RotS was the last trilogy made, your just making the same trilogy over again. Not shocking at all.

    I mean at this moment of time I would love to see Rey turn and lop of Ben Solo's head and ascend the steps and take the throne. That would be the greatest Star War moment in this trilogy. That would be shocking. But a generic face and turn its like, here we go again yawn fest. Seen it, done it, got the t-shirt. It's bordering old tat.
     
    #32 p03, Sep 14, 2018
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  13. Sparafucile

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    I accept that for you and surely some other fans it wouldn't be very thrilling and somewhat of a rehash. I think without knowing the events that defeats that evil it would make it somewhat different, enough different to make it interesting. Don't get me wrong, I don't want it to go this way, I want the ST to be over after IX and never visit this era and saga films again. So if the minds at LFL agree with you and lean toward a more final conclusion, I'm all for it.

    I like the idea of Rey offing Kylo. That would be epic.
     
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  14. ObieKenobie

    ObieKenobie Rebelscum

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    I have to disagree. Both Anakin and Luke are exceptional people, each with a great many virtues. But they each have one flaw: they fear death. Not their own deaths, but the death of the ones they love. What Anakin fails to appreciate is that by destroying the things Padme lives for, he's bring about a metaphorical death for the one he loves. The tragic irony that Anakin's actions actually bring about Padme's literal death underscores this fact.

    Anakin's motivations years later in ROTJ aren't much different than those in ROTS. He's afraid of Luke dying, just as he was afraid of Padme dying. Anakin loves Luke, and this gives him the strength to do something incredibly noble and heroic - he gives up his own life to save Luke. But as the PT shows us, it was a very similar love for Padme that led him to do something incredibly evil - destroy Padme's raison d'être in a vain attempt to "save" her. The question for the ST is to explain how love - something we take to be fundamentally good - could lead Anakin to do something something so evil. Yoda has already pointed the way, but the ST has to actually "make it so". We need to see some one understand the difference between these two situations: Anakin's honorable sacrifice for Luke, and his twisted "sacrifice" for Padme. I think that someone needs to be Ben; he needs to learn the difference between "true love" and love twisted by the fear of death, and act rightly on that knowledge.

    If you've been watching Ben's scenes with Rey carefully, you'll see that it's quite feasible. He clearly loves her, he's clearly in great emotional pain and I think after TLJ he's primed to turn away from evil and begin to heal that pain with Rey's help. Then after Rey has saved him from evil, he'll be forced to make the heartbreaking decision that Anakin and Luke couldn't. And in making that choice, he will have healed (or at least begun to heal) the emotional damage the Skywalker line has dropped on his shoulders.

    Granted, Han's commitment to the Rebellion is not as deep as Leia's, though I think that speaks more to the depth of Leia's commitment than to the shallowness of Han's. But Han and Chewie came back to fight the Empire at the end of ANH - a mission Han called "suicide". And by ESB they've been fighting with the Rebellion for years. They may not be looking to become martyrs for the cause, but they know, and have accepted, that there's a very good chance this cause will claim there lives. No one is forcing them to put their lives in danger like this - it's a choice they've been making every day for years.

    And yes, Luke's situation is much more ambiguous than Anakin's. On the one hand, it's not a guarantee that Han and Leia will die without Luke's help, and on the other that Luke's help will be enough to save them. And it's not certain that Luke would die trying to help them, or that even if he became a Jedi he could save the rebellion. These ambiguities make for difficult decision making. But Yoda's point isn't so much that going to Bespin is definitely the wrong choice, but that Luke isn't think about it the right way. He's letting his fear of death twist his love into something that is, if not evil, at least shortsighted.

    Ben clearly loves Han and Leia. But he's become so twisted by fear and betrayal coming from every one he loves and trusts that he thinks the only way to "be free of this pain" is to destroy the love that's tearing him apart. He want's to "let go of what he fears to lose" but in an evil and perverse way. He's come to see love as a source of pain rather than strength. Now that he's falling for Rey he has a chance to see the error in his ways. He can overcome that characteristic Skywalker fear of death the constructive way Yoda prescribes, rather than the destructive Snoke has taught him.

    It's plain as day from both TFA and TLJ that this is the direction JJ and Rian are taking this story.
     
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  15. Sparafucile

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    It's funny, my take on Han was always he was part of the Rebellion for his friend's sake, not the Rebellion's sake. That's not to say he doesn't care for the Rebellion, but it's clearly secondary to first, Luke and later Leia and keeping them safe. I always got the impression in ANH and ESB that he sees Luke as a little brother. To put it another way, if Luke gets blown up by an x-wing early in the battle of Yavin, Han never shows up to give someone else cover to bow the DS. He comes back for Luke, not the Rebellion. Of course this is my head canon, but it seems to fit with Han at that time.

    By ESB, Han is trying to leave because of an encounter with a bounty hunter on Ord Mandel. Rieken is actually sad to see Han go, and says so. It seems like Han was leaving the Rebellion, at least for a while to sort out his past. Then the probe droid comes and there's a lock down so he can't leave. Then when it's time to leave he stays to make sure Leia's safe. This doesn't speak to me as someone who's dedicated to the Rebellion, but rather to his friends and keeping them alive, being a voice of reason and self preservation. I don't think Han wants Luke or Leia to lose themselves in the war and get themselves killed. At least that's always been my interpretation.

    By RotJ, Han's almost died and his friends have risked their lives to save his. Luke's a Jedi knight and Han's probably thinking his life's all topsy turvy. He commits to the Endor venture because he realizes that for better or worse, his fate is tied to the Rebellion. He's now very familiar to Vader, to the point he'd been tortured by him. He actually has stakes beyond keeping his friends safe. I don't think it's so much revenge, though there might be some of that, but a realization that his life has changed forever since ESB and the only way he can get some freedom is if the Empire falls. I don't think that realization comes until after he thaws from carbonite.

    For Luke I think we're more or less in agreement, minus some minor interpretation to details.

    For Rey and Ben, our opinions and takes differ. I don't see Ben as loving Han, though it's possible, I had the impression he used his fathers love to lure him close to further his training. That was my take anyways. I felt the hesitation was show to give Han hope and make him at ease. Leia he's mixed about, maybe because killing his father made him doubt his commitment to the dark side, which also speaks to his killing Snoke.

    As for Rey and Ben's love being obvious, I don't see it. I feel Rey regards Ben in a similar way to Finn. I would think it's very much a Twilight type scenario where the girl has to choose between the good boy and bad boy. The difference is that Rey doesn't seem particularly that interested in either of them in that way. I think it's less romantic love and more platonic for both Ben and Finn. I would say for Ben, she may even be a little manipulative as leading him on just to get him to stop his destruction, but I would not say that exists, but is a possibility to exist in IX. As in, Rey, knowing Ben's infatuation, uses that to reach Ben, despite not feeling like she can reciprocate, but not blurting that out of fear she loses Ben completely.
     
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  16. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I’m sorry but I just refuse to believe that George set these deliberately parallel scenarios up for the intended takeaway to be interpreted as arbitrary. It wasn’t meant to show zero character growth on Anakin’s part. If that’s the impression you got, then cool, but that’s about as counterintuitive as I can imagine. ROTS Anakin took the lives innocents in order to protect himself from the anguish of loss. The act of a Sith. ROTJ Anakin sacrificed himself in order to protect the life of an innocent. The act of a Jedi.

    Would a post ROTJ Anakin (had he survived) make the same decision he did in ROTS? I’d like to think not as that would totally dismantle his whole redemption, but none of us can say that for certain. Doesn’t make much sense to me though.
    He clearly identifies with her - sees her as a kindred spirit who he believes he understands and can understand him. If you want to equate that to ‘love’, then terrific, but that certainly wasn’t my read of the situation. Not at all.
    I’m not saying ‘redemption through love’ is off the table. I said it’s a “tall order” because TLJ made a point of presenting Kylo with multiple opportunities for recovery only to then have him consciously reject them and knowingly embrace his darkness. The movie ends with Rey literally closing a door in his face because of this. A bridge was built and then it was torn down. It’ll have to be built back up again to get to where you’re proposing. Not impossible, but from my point of view, a big ask.
     
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  17. ObieKenobie

    ObieKenobie Rebelscum

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    It's not counterintuitive at all when, as I said in my first post in this thread, the saga is viewed in release order rather than chronological order. Thematically speaking, the PT is responding to, and commenting on, the OT, not the other way around. We're meant to watch the OT and see things one way - that Anakin's heroic sacrifice saved the galaxy and himself - and then watch the PT and see things turned on their heads - that same noble impulse, twisted by his fear of death, lead Anakin to the dark side. So in the ST, we need to see a character (and I think that character is Ben) (a) act nobly out of love, as Anakin did in ROTJ, while (b) not let love be distorted by the fear of death, as happened to Anakin in ROTS.

    What I'm imagining follows the dialectic of abstract-negative-concrete. The "abstract" theme is something like "love conquers all," which we see in the first act - the OT. The negative of that theme is what we see in the PT: love seems to be what turned Anakin to evil in the first place. The concrete theme in the third act has to refine/clarify the original "abstract" theme from the first act to overcome the negative of the second act. The idea that the fear of death can distort love into something that isn't love at all gives us our concrete theme: "True love conquers all," but by the end of ROTS what Anakin had for Padme wasn't true love. His fear had twisted his love into something possessive, shortsighted and evil.

    They're a lot more than "kindred spirits." Almost every scene between Rey and Ben is sexually coded, especially their scene in the Hut on Achto. I mean, if you want to split hairs then you can call it an intense romantic/sexual passion that can build to love, but clearly they're more than just "kindred spirits." This isn't fans shipping two random characters, or some deeply hidden subtext. JJ and Rian are clearly showing these to falling in love, and if you don't see it you're missing the point of the whole story.

    The thing about doors: they don't just close...

    Yes, Rey closes the door on Ben. But I don't think she's saying, "I'm done with you. We're enemies now." If that were the case then the whole Rey/Ben plot arc just went in a big pointless circle. Rather I think she's saying, "I can't be the one to save you. You have to save yourself. Then we can talk." When she left Achto to meet Ben, she believed (naïvely) that just by showing up she could save him. Now she knows better, and that's what the door closing shows.
     
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  18. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Yeah. It would have been real boring if one of the greatest heroes in cinematic history actually acted like... a hero.

    </sarcasm>
     
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  19. Jedi MD

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    He did act like a hero at the end of TLJ. He was the ultimate hero. He saved the remanants of the Resistance and brought hope back to the galaxy. He returned to the hero we had at the end of RTOJ. His arc was one of a fallen hero who then returns to his former glory.
     
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  20. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    No, he really didn't. A hero goes to protect and defend his friends, not Force Project himself into a meaningless death.
     
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