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Can IX conclude the saga?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Jaxxon, Sep 9, 2018.

?

Can IX conclude the saga in a satisfying way?

  1. Yes, it's right on track

    10 vote(s)
    20.8%
  2. Yes, but it will be tough

    29 vote(s)
    60.4%
  3. No, not a chance

    9 vote(s)
    18.8%
  1. Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi

    Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi Rebel Official

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    On the contrary. Luke’s “death” was far from meaningless. He saved Leia and the last of the Resistance, the last spark of hope.
    (And I put death in quotations because he is not gone he is now more powerful than anyone can imagine.)
     
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  2. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Luke isn't the hero of this trilogy. People finally need to understand this. He had his time in the OT. If Luke was a hero, then where would have been the use of Rey and Co?
     
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  3. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

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    And what do you think acting like a hero is like? Walking out with a laser sword and facing down the whole First Order? Well, he did that too.
     
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  4. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    I think most of us wanted a wise, Heroic Luke to train Rey. When I watch a new hope, I cannot reconcile TLJ Luke with ANH Luke or even ROTJ Luke.

    They did not establish that our hero Luke was on that Island for a greater purpose than hiding from failure or fear. The projection on Crystal itself was cool and interesting but it still left you feeling our hero was afraid and no longer the positive adventurer that we loved and longed to see again.

    If Luke indeed died in that last scene, it felt like a forced obligated desperate act rather than a heroic sacrifice.

    I see What RJ May have tried to do there, but he failed for me. Wife and I both left the movie feeling like, “what the hell was that”?

    It was not awe inspiring and did not leave us thirsting or hopeful for the next movie.

    Maybe all that TLJ was is a giant misdirection to make the finale and trilogy special and awesome or set up big reveals to come? Looked more like a mid season filler episode on TV.

    The running out of gas thing is a farce though warping into Snokes ship was neat.
     
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  5. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Oh gee I dunno… maybe helping your friends instead of leaving them on their own?

    I'll be happy to continue this discussion in the E8 subforum but that is the last I will talk about E8's idiocy in the E9 sub-forum.
     
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  6. Background Character

    Background Character Rebel Official

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    People will never get over the Jesus complex they have affixed to Luke Skywalker. Luke was never a flawless superhero. He was a normal guy who came to realize his full potential in the force and achieve great things. He also failed quite a bit, too. He was filled with self-doubt, and susceptible to temptation by the dark side. Five minutes at the end of Return of the Jedi do not make him immune from any of this for the rest of his life. His exile is the result of failing to live up to the expectations placed on him by the hero worshipers in the Star Wars universe. Quite an interesting parallel with the hero worshipers in real life who wanted him to be Superman in this movie.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    But . . . why? According to George, the story was meant to be viewed in episode order. You can watch it however you like, but as far as thematics are concerned, it’s one story with a traceable arc. The second part just happened to have been released before the first. You can certainly draw whatever individual conclusions seem most correct for your personal experience, but the guy who wrote the thing doesn’t agree with you.
    Look, I’m not discounting the way you’ve chosen to interpret the series, that’s perfectly valid for what makes sense for you. But for the topic of what was “meant” by it, there’s really only one genuine authority on the matter.

    Part one concludes with Anakin’s damnation over choosing “love” for the wrong reasons and part two concludes with his salvation over choosing “love” for the right reasons. Arc complete.
    Hey, maybe so.
    Wow, no two ways about it, huh? That’s the one and only plausible way this can go down? That level of certainty is pretty commendable. I hope it doesn’t land you in a place of disappointment.

    What if maybe gender is irrelevant here. What if what we’re getting is two people with a rich platonic connection. It doesn’t need to be sexual or romantic. It’s just two human beings relating to one another. One with abundant levels of compassion who sincerely sees the best in people and wants to save someone worth saving. The other with the potential to be saved but only by someone with that extraordinary capacity. ‘Love’ can be intimate and exquisite and not be expressed as a pair-bond. It’s possible.
    My point is that ‘regaining’ trust is a much steeper climb than ‘gaining’ trust. Once you’ve placed your faith in someone and had that faith betrayed, it’s a mighty task to earn your way back to that point. Make sense? Repairing that severed bond, having it be convincing and feel earned, isn’t a small feat. It’s not an unachievable one, just a daunting one - a tall order. Especially when you factor in all the repeated lifelines he's contemplatively rejected up to now.
     
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  8. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Why is this 7,8 And 9 if they did not intend it to tie strongly into Anakin Skywalker? Why did they just not start a new Saga?
     
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  9. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Because Luke matters more than Anakin. Yup, I've said it.
     
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  10. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    “Through the ages, I've seen evil take many forms. The Sith. The Empire. Today, it is the First Order.” My personal theory after hearing this line from Maz in TFA was that the ST was more trying to relate to the other trilogies through the light/dark conflict in a more general sense.

    The Skywalkers then are really just the most recent entry in a battle being waged for eons. That this trilogy would be about addressing the root of the issue that Anakin represented rather than the figure himself. I’m really not so sure about that anymore though :)
     
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  11. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I've said this before, but the pacing of the trilogy so far has made the new characters feel a little too new, given only a few in-universe days pass between the opening of TFA and the credits rolling in TLJ. The characters hardly even know each other, and I know that even as a fan of the sequels I also don't feel like I sufficiently know them yet either.

    That's not to say that IX can't have a satisfying ending, but it does have these challenges:

    - Making us care about the characters and what they're doing again, assuming that there's a large time jump

    - Alternatively, if there's no time jump, this warped sense of scale will be once again an issue

    - Concluding the stories of the new characters and the old in a meaningful, inter-connected way. For instance,I know a lot of people are looking forward to the possibility of more Force Ghosts in the end, but if they're just there to wink at Luke (again) and not involve Rey in some way, it just seems like bad fan service. At least Yoda in TLJ discussed Rey with Luke.

    - As @Jaxxon stated, a mere beating the First Order doesn't really make for a compelling conclusion. Something more needs to happen.

    - Treading the dangerous line between adapting to criticisms of The Last Jedi and The Force Awakens, and pandering to fans (and possible running the risk of making major decisions feel like retcons).



    I'll be a fan to the end, and I'm eagerly looking forward to getting my butt into a seat on opening night... but nevertheless, I have these concerns.
     
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  12. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

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    That's... also what happened. But yeah, it's offtopic here.

    This comes down to what exectly does Ep.IX have to conclude. If it's just about the Skywalkers, than the FO doesn't even need to be beaten. Just focus the movie on Kylo Ren, his personal torments and doubts, throw some meaningful interactions with Rey and the Force ghosts and either have him redeemed or killed, and there you go. The rest of the stuff about the state of the Galaxy, new Jedi, First Order, threats from the Unknown Regions - all that can go on in future movies and other media.

    I fear, that people, who want a Grand Conclusion that Ties Everything Together with profound impact on the Galaxy, the Force and their personal lives, will be severely disappointed. Again.
     
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  13. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I certainly agree with that. TLJ, to me, seems more like ‘Episode 7 part 2’ than ‘Episode 8’. So much happens with the character’s development over a stretch of days - redefining their world views under extreme circumstances. We need to know they’ve lived with these personal evolutions for a while. It’s not just the result of emotionality in the heat of the moment. They’ve had time to breath and reflect and consciously choose where they are in the story. Otherwise it comes off as sort of fleeting. Sure, they might feel that way today, but that was one hell of a day. They might feel different tomorrow.
     
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  14. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    *cough* Kylo Ren, the offspring of Anakin Skywalker, a huge fan of Vader, the depiction of Anakin we always wanted in the PT. Shall I keep going?
     
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  15. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Perhaps, but I don't feel like that's unreasonable either. A tall order, definitely. But as a conclusion not only to a trilogy, but allegedly the saga as a whole, a generic action plot wouldn't do this justice.
     
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  16. ObieKenobie

    ObieKenobie Rebelscum

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    I'm less concerned with what Lucas says about the films than what the films themselves say. The dramatic beats of the OT depend on us not knowing what happens in the PT. The PT relies heavily on the rich collection of symbols developed by the OT. This isn't just particular to the PT; it's a feature of all prequels. The whole point of setting a work of fiction before the original is to change our understanding of the original. The original, presumably, stands on its own, or else it wouldn't have been made first. In the OT, Anakin is a power hungry tyrant that is turned back to the light by his son's love. We're left to assume that it was this lust for power that drove Anakin to evil. Only then the PT comes along and changes this view: it was actually "love" that drove him to evil. If the prequels didn't change the way we see the OT there would be no point: the OT already stands on its own as a story.

    Let me clarify: I'm not certain that Rey and Ben will be together in the end. What I am certain of is this: they did fall in love in TLJ, and TFA did set the ground work for this. Both movies take clear, deliberate steps to have these two fall in love. At the end of TLJ their relationship has taken a step back, but the damage is not irrevocable. They've done too much work setting this up to drop it that easily. Now, JJ could decide the have the two "break up" for good. But even then JJ would use this broken love. For example, maybe Rey decides the Ben is to far gone, and that the only thing she can do to save the galaxy is to kill him. This would be presented as a heartbreaking decision for Rey: she has to kill someone she loves (or at least is beginning to love) for the good of the galaxy. She wouldn't decide this at a drop of a hat; it's something she would struggle with throughout the whole film.

    I don't know where this story is going to end up. But I do know that it will take advantage of Rey and Ben's (burgeoning) love.

    My point was that it is already sexual and romantic.
    • The Bridal Carry on Takodana.
    • Compare Rey's interrogation to Poe's. There's an intimacy in Ben's mannerisms that's completely absent in the much more violent Poe interrogation.
    • Ben is revealed to be a handsome Byronic prince under that mask; Rey looks him up and down when the mask comes of.
    • Ben tells Rey he can "Show you the ways of the force," a line with clear sexual undertones. Indeed the whole moment has sexual undertones: two sweaty people, one hovering of the other...
    • What other purpose could Ben being shirtless have served than to create sexual tension?
    • The scene in the Hut is very clearly sexual. The warm light. Their eyes locked. "I've never felt so alone." "You're not alone." Rey's little gasp when their hands touch ("It's the closest thing we'll get to a sex scene in a 'Star Wars' movie.").
    • On the elevator to Snoke's throne room: again, their eyes are locked, faces inches apart...
    Oh and:
    [​IMG]


    If you don't see that JJ and Rian have been developing this romantic relationship, you're missing out on the whole point of their arc. I don't know how JJ will use it in the end, but the romance is there.
     
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  17. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    What makes you think they won't? J.J. said he would tie it all together and I'm sure that includes Anakin too. But to what extent is anyone's guess
     
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  18. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

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    Return of the Jedi had a simple plot and yet it managed to conclude everything quite well at the time. It didn't bother with the fate of the Galaxy, rebuilding of the Jedi order etc. And Ep.IX doesn't really have to do all that either to "conclude the saga". It doesn't have to conclude Star Wars as a whole, just the storylines on the existing characters.
     
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  19. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    So let's see what we've got here.

    Luke: "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. The Rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi."​

    If Master Luke is to be taken literally, "The Rebellion is reborn", and will need some time to establish itself. The "war is just beginning", so it's unlikely it will be over in IX. "I will not be the last Jedi", so it's assumed Rey will be the last Jedi.

    So, we'll see the Rebellion growing in strength, war is going on, and will likely be the case at the end of IX, and Rey leads, or co-leads, the New Rebellion on "the only fight".

    "The final installment of the sequel trilogy (source)", "the final installment of the Skywalker saga (source)", Lucasfilm says.

    So, there's two things happening at the same time in IX: a) Star Wars continues; and b) The Skywalker saga sees its final installment. So IX needs only to conclude the Skywalker story in a meaningful way.

    So, how do you end the story of Anakin and his legacy? Will there need to be a grand finale, with deep cosmic implications? Or will a simple three-act movie do the trick, if it also manages to address Anakin's story, and his offspring?

    The only two Skywalkers left living, that we know of, are Leia and Ben.

    Leia will probably see the days of a New Republic before she dies, or at least she will do everything she can to help make that happen. That's her purpose. To be royalty and help in the big scheme of things.

    As for Ben, things are more unpredictable, even due to the character's very nature. He wants to see old things end. Well, if he does, than the FO is one of such things, only not explicitely stated as so. In that sense, Ben, Rey and Leia's objectives may align in the search for something new. It will be difficult to see a reconciliation happening between the three of them, but as Luke has said: "No one is ever truly gone". And that I think may be the motto for IX.

    So, can IX conclude the (Skywalker) saga? And, in a meaningful way? I believe it can. It just needs to give us a good Star Wars movie and a final chapter on what happens with Leia and Ben. I don't believe that a grand cosmic event or conclusion is required, just a satisfactory end to the Skywalker's legacy. And I believe JJ and co can do that.
     
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  20. daRinze

    daRinze Force Sensitive

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    I am part of the people who greatly expects Anakin's ghost to finally show up, and there are at least 2 reasons:
    1. after Yoda popped up in TLJ, one of my thought was: "Yoda's ghost has reappeared! OK it's fine... but what happened to ObiWan's ghost and Anakin's ghost we saw by the end of RotJ ? Why Yoda, and why not Obi and why not Anakin?". I still have no explanation for that.
    2. as Ben was fond of Vader in TFA, it's expectable that Vader/Anakin finally comes and "show him the way to finish what he started". So far, Ben met everyone from the OT, except the only one for whom he has admiration. I'm convinced Vader/Anakin will teach him the last lesson he needs.



    Yes. Clearly.
     
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