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HUMOR Can Rey trully handle herself or she just thinks she can?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Greywalker, Jul 7, 2017.

?

Can she or can't she?

  1. Yes she can and she does!

    10 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. Yes she can but she isn't allowed! Cuz....mansplaining...and stuffs!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Yes she can but that's only cuz she is a Mary Sue

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. No she can't, only men handle women!

    1 vote(s)
    5.6%
  5. From a certain point of view!

    5 vote(s)
    27.8%
  6. Yes, self explanatory.

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
  7. No, self explanatory.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Other

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

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    I was debating with myself whether to tag this as humor or speculation thread. I chose the former in the end so that we keep it on the light side but also so i wouldn't be flagged as a feminist. I am not one. I am an egalitarian. Huge difference. Uuuuuuuuge! :p (i also dont have best opinion on Trump so don't get caught on 'uuuuuge' ;) )

    However, I would like to host here a serious discission cuz it's an important topic...serious discussion in a humorous way, preferably please :D


    So case in point:

    Rey claims for her self that she can. Handle herself. When Han hands her the gun she clearly states it: "I think I can handle myself."

    [​IMG]
    Yet...all throughout the movie she meets charachters that think she can't. So they kinda dismiss her and 'try' to protect her. Despite her clearly saying back off.

    In the movie Finn's charachter does that the most. From the very begining of their relationship, when he insists on taking her hand to 'safely' guide her out of the dangers of tie fighters attack. She clearly says to him..."stop taking my hand"....and..."i know how to run with out you holding my hand". Yet....he ignores her and forcefully takes her hand to lend his hand. However unnecessary. And against her will. Many times. Even if he witnessed her taking out 2-3 Unkar Plutt's thugs just moments before and even if she is the one that saves them from tie fighters. Sure, some might say it was a joint endavour to destroy them, but everyone who saw the movie saw she did the most of the heavy lifting in that fight....flying MF, positioning it so that Finn can take them down. Finn only had to press the trigger at oportune time. okay, twice. :p
    Then later, he continues to think himself necessary component of her salvation from SKB. Dismissing even the possibility of her saving herself? Which she again proves him wrong when she does save herself. This core misunderstanding from his side of who she is as a person is my personal main reason why i am anti Finn/Rey relationship. But thats another topic, lets stick with him patronising her throught the movie and how that is unexceptable behaviour from a female point of view. Is mansplaining a proper term to use here?

    The same happens a lot also beyond the movies, people thinking she needs defending or similar...i have met soooo many people that do that....guys specially, but lets not go there either at this point and let's focus only on her interactions with her fictional companions in tfa and beyond.


    Han kinda dismisses her too on occasions. Not so directly as Finn, but still. When he doesnt believe her she was the pilot of MF or when he is surprised that the girl knows her stuff when she cleared the way for him and Chewie on SKB. But that can hardly be seen as sexist cuz it's Han...he behaves like that with everyone. Kanji klub too, even... Since he thinks he is so much more cool than everyone else (which constitutes a huge part of his charm, for me at least).

    The only people who don't treat her as inferior are Leia, who obviously has sympathy for a competent female force user, being one. And Kylo Ren. Kylo treats her first and foremost as an adversary. Yes, even during the interogation. True, at first he underestimates her, but later acknowledges here competence by offering her to show her more. Something that will clearly make her stronger. The WAYS of the Force. For me thats a sign of respect. An offer to share arcane knowledge. But I'm biased against Kylo Ren so I get it that I might see things unclear. And no one mention THE TREE...THAT was soooo a fair move. She shot first. At an unarmed man! At least Greedo had a gun :p
    (I'm kidding, lets talk about that FIRST!)

    I would like offense free discussion here, if possible so guys and gals leave the ad hominem attacks there where they belong (not here :p) and lets focus on arguing against the point not the poster.
    Looking forward to constructive discussion. :)

    The first people that come to mind for that are @FN-3263827 @Boushhdisguise and @Moral Hazard, but of course all else are welcome :)

    What say you? Is my reasoning flawed?
     
    #1 Greywalker, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
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  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i think you are being rather hard on Finn. yes, he sees that she can take care of herself against Unkar's thugs, but he's a soldier and he knows the First Order, their weapons, and their relentlessness. he has no reason to believe Rey has ever tangled with Stormtroopers and even though she manages to get the Falcon going, it's rocky at first because she's figuring it out (same as he is--hence the "i can do this, i can do this" moment).

    i can't imagine why anyone would assume she could escape from Starkiller Base all by herself. if she didn't have the Force, she'd still have been Kylo Ren's prisoner when Han, Chewie, and Finn arrived, and there's no guarantee she could have gotten off the base successfully even if she got out of the chair.

    i think you might be reading too much into Han as well. he is surprised that she is the pilot not because she's a girl, but because she's so young. when she affirms that she is the pilot, he doesn't question it, and later when she's telling him all about his own ship, he's visibly impressed (in only the way Han Solo can be). later when he gives her the blaster and says she's got a lot to learn, he's being honest, not patronizing. she doesn't know about the safety on the gun, and she handles the weapon a little recklessly, both of which he instructs her on (again, in his own way). this scene in particular, i think is there to demonstrate that yes, Rey is confident, capable, strong, and smart. but she's still young and she doens't know everything. she doesn't know her own powers, she doesn't know the wider culture of the galaxy, and she has never fought an army until now. we also know from the EU that prior to Han's return to smuggling, he mentored a lot of kids (both male and female--probably except his own dang son fer cryin' out loud).

    Rey's youth as being surprising is also the crux of Snoke's problem with her. none of the FO is freaking out because she's female, they're freaking out because she's young and presumably just a scavenger. her gender is never an issue. hence, as you said, Kylo Ren, treats her at first as a lowly combatant who is beneath him (because everyone is in his world), and then, after he realizes her powers, as an equal. if anything, Ren's the one who's patronizing in that interrogation because he assumes he has all the power and grossly underestimates Rey's strength. his compassion by not treating her as he did Poe, is actually the most egregious thing anyone does to Rey because of its amazing arrogance. Finn taking Rey's hand is sheer ignorance and he stops doing it once they leave Jakku. Ren poking her mind is calculated, deliberate; he wants something and he just takes it.

    it's all fair in context of the battle they are fighting, but let's be honest: if Rey had been a boy it's doubtful Ren would have carried her, hung around staring at her, or probed her deepest darkest dreams. he is the single character in the film who actually treats Rey specifically like a woman/female.

    and just for the record, i don't think there's anything wrong with that.
    she is a woman and he is a man, and we can't just neuter the characters because that's not realistic and we know there's a connection between them and like it or not, part of that connection is that opposites/dualities/complentaries attract (in the Force and otherwise).
    and, as you said, Ren ultimately recognizes her as a peer and treats her with the respect of one, which is the part that matters.

    furthermore, there's nothing wrong with Rey needing to learn things. i find the claims against her that she's a Mary Sue pretty funny because she fails a lot in this movie and she only manages to defeat Ren because she perseveres and he basically defeats himself. he literally just gives up the fight. if he had wanted to kill her, it would have been no contest at all. Rey is our hero, but she's on a journey to gain knowledge, power, and wisdom. she's going to need help: Luke's help primarily. are we really going to treat that dependence or need on a male mentor as patronizing?

    because you know who else needs serious help? Ben.
    and i suspect that's ultimately going to come from a female source.

    everything in balance.

    eeeeeee ~ sorry for the lengthy sprawl. : o p

    tl;dr: Rey can mostly take care of herself, but she does need help now and then because all people do.
    Ren is the only one who deliberately patronizes Rey until she demonstrates she's not to be trifled with.
    both characters need the help of others, male and female, in their lives because they are young and still learning.
    none of this needs to be viewed through a defensive gendered lens unless people want to kick hornets for no good reason ~ hahahaha


    p.s. thanks for the callout, @GreyLo! : D
     
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  3. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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    I think Han and Leia do that to Luke in the OT, but he was a cocky naive farm boy. But yeah, I think it's supposed to be drilled into us, that Rey shouldn't be as able as she is, however, she isn't naive or cocky.
     
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  4. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

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    @FN-3263827 and @Boushhdisguise
    Yay....i will read it ALL just as soon as i come back from the beach. Looking forward to some serious debate! :p
     
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  5. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

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    God....you can talk even more than I do!! :eek:
    It will take me some time to answer all this :p ...Since Im on my phone, vacationing in the middle of coastal Croatia nowhere with 3 unbelievably munching kiddos (not all mine i swear :D) that i constantly have to prepare food for, and internet issues that i suspect come from them chewing on the cables...but fear not...its now 11 am and i started. Hopefully I can finish before tomorrow evening :D

    First...i have read your post twice. I admire you perspective and ability to detach yourself from the charachters in your analysis. My first thought upon reading was how uterrly personal this story (tfa and st) is to me...i am aware that all of my reasoning and interpretations of the charachters' behaviours is so subjective. And not dismissing other people's objectivity, i find i kinda enjoy my emmotional response. Its fun for me and new because i have never felt that way about a movie. The power of SW hihihi....
    Second thing that came to my mind upon reading this was: damn Karolina, your father is right. He likes to say (i kid you not and i cant believe i connected this to sw only now) that there is too much of my (maternal) grandfather in me :D. Trying to Force (ha!) things to what i think is their rightful state, pridefully refusing help from anyone along the way...hahah.....eehh...i think this is where my over sensitivity to patronizing rey comes from....i know she can handle herself :D but no one died of accepting some help or guidance. Ill try to keep that in mind :D
    And third thing that came to my mind is...hell you are right...i probably AM reading to much into other people's behaviour towards Rey. But...but...but....i read recently an article on facebook :)P) that such a thing is a quality of highly intelligent people: to search for patterns connections or in general something more than just the obviousness in the way people behave towards eachother, so Im guuuuud. If you read it on facebook then it must be true :p

    Finn is a likeable charachter to most people. He is goofy and cute. Funny even at times. But his funnyness comes from his goofynes and, lets be honest clumsyness and naivete. Yes he was a soldier for the First Order, possibly a competent one, but what he exhibits post his FO days, and in the first part of the movie specially, does not support that much for us to call him a particularly competent person. She is certainly more competent one of the pair, with hands on approach and problem solving attitude. And I have a feeling she allways will be. She makes things happen, while Finn lets things happen to him. SHE saves HIM, multiple occassions: from tie fighters, from rathars, from Kylo....he DOES not pay back the favor....not cuz he might not wanna...he just can't. He is a cute puppy, she is a tigress. Therefore their dynamic, for me, can never be a good base for a deeper relationship than friendship. They are just not equals. He cant keep up with her. In that and also in her understanding of the Force since he is not a force user himself. And that is the truth. All of it. I get that some women like to dominate relationships and govern their men arround, and i honestly dont judge that (if its fine for the people who live in it im good with it), but i do think that is as bad as having it the other way around: Men calling the shots in a relationship. Like they do in more traditional ones. But Rey, i feel, is a sort of person that would appreciate....something more..in a possible romantic relationship.
    Now...lets talk about Finn's intentions. I like how often everyone says how he might have made some mistakes but his intentions are good. What a ball of sith. His intentions are only 'good' (as in not selfcentered and selfish) after the Takodana. Before that moment reaching back to his awakening from the 'programmed from birth' brainwash, Finn is thinking of one thing and one thing only. How to save his ass and get the hell away from the first order. He lies, cheats and steals (in a cute, funny way that guides the ga to think him innocent). Those are facts. He lies to Poe. He doesnt care about saving him as much as he needs a pilot. Poe saw through that and calls him on it. Only then does finn admits it: "i need a pilot"....in a cute manner. Looking all lost and scared and sweaty and you just cant help yourself you just wanna help him...even if you know he just lied. But that does not change the fact that he is a liar. And he only says the truth when cornered. Same thing he does with Rey when he tells her he is a resustance. Or to bb-8 when he promisses him he'll get him to the base if he covers for him infront of rey.
    His selfcenterdness, imo originates from fear of FO's retribution and what they might do to him should they find out that he has become 'sentient'. He doesnt care much about other people in the process: he is perfectly fine with shooting his stromtrooper friends during escape with Finn, or leaving Poe for dead in the dessert without checking everything, or leaving the resistance and his best buddy rey to fight the good fight themselves while he disapears beyond the outer rim. Maybe a better description would be that he does care about them to some extent, but cares about himself more. If it was not so then his first impulse would have been to join resistance and help them fight FO. But nah...he is a man who wants to run and hide. Cuz he is scared. Valid point, i guess. But it still does not take away responsibility from his actions. And like it or not, up until Rey's abduction...Finn is a a liar and a coward.
    Luckily....his charachter changes in the second part of tfa. At least in his intentions. So much that at one point he even charges (wounded) kylo in an attempt to revenge rey. Which I welcome wholeheartedly. Means he is capable of not only caring for others but also acting upon it. But one might remark here again that he only did it when he was cornered and had nothing much else to do, really. Will he change in other aspects as well, such as his competence, remains to be seen. But as of yet, in tfa, his role, like it or not is of a main comic relief. And occassional support with minor things. Such as info about thermal oscilator location on skb and....how did he exactly contribute to blowing it up? By driving ms daisy around on a speeder so she can do her stuff (in a deleted scene).
    As for his taking her hand. Its his unwillingnes to listen to her that bothers me. She lets him know she does not appreciate him taking her hand but he ignores her and does it again cuz HE thinks HE can HELP her. Not cuz of facts based in the reality (that up to that point are not exactly going to his favor), but rather his notion that she must be wanting or needing his help. A common mistake men make in relationships. Deeming themselves more important or capable than they are. And before i am called a manhater, women deeming themselves more important or capable than they are is equally bad. :) (rey does not do that :p)

    That's a valid point. But the rest did not go there to 'save' rey. They went to disable the shields to give poe and the fleet a chance to destroy the weapon of mass destruction.

    I can agree to this. I really can. Not just cuz i love Han in all of his faultedness, but also cuz that is how he behaves towards everyone. When looked in that context he really does not separate her from anyone else.

    Hmmmm...this is very interesting. Her youth and status being a legitimate reason why everyone would underestimate her. Everyone but Finn that is. They are approx same age and he is a deserter. Thats lower than scavenger on a scum scale.
    And....in a way i can see it comming from Ren. You mentioned before your thoughts on him begaving like an entitled little prickle. It would make sense and i am sure he has done that in the past. Succumbing to his arrogance. Being a prince and also the most powerful force user around (next to luke).
    And you might be right about how his mind probing started. He deliberately went in there for the map. But i think he kinda got lost on the way. I think he was drawn to her loneliness perhaps because he can relate to that? Why does Ren have compassion towards her? Cuz he sees himself in her? Why did they share that 'moment' they both acknowledged that many think was the force bond formation? Cuz they are more alike than other people? Or force bonds are formed upon every mind sharing?

    Yes. But he doesnt patronize her in that. He treats her like a gentleman. Lolz. Carries her around takes of his mask for her etc...afterall he is a prince and them have good manners :D
    He makes sure she is conscious before probing her and even asks her about the droid and to give him the map info so he wouldn't have to go in and take it himself. She refused.. so he had to go in and get it. Lolz. But as i said....got drawn to something else. Something she burries deep and hides even from herself. Her loneliness. Thats why she cries when he reads it out loud. Not cuz she is in pain. But cuz she cant hide her vulnerability infront of him like she does infront of everyone else. He 'sees' her. Not what she presents. What she really is. And that is scarry. Outside of her comfort zone level scary.

    Yups!

    Oh.-kay 'dad' :p
    (thats agreeing with you ;) )

    Just as long as he doesnt get whipped in the process cuz he "needs" to be her b*tchslapped puppy lover in order to be "worthy" of her love...duh..

    Balance. Yin and Yang. Ren and Rey. Romance or not. But it would not be a true balance unless all aspects of a relationship were involved. Sex is the funnest part of it. Would be cruel to deprive either of them of fun :p

    I love it! Do some more!

    Anytime!!
     
  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    Lordy no: you win!!! : D

    i can well appreciate how much we can internalize our feelings about these made-up space people--and also how their lives can resonate with us so deeply. it's why people fight so passionately about this stuff, right? i appreciate anyone willing to engage at this level in a reasonable manner! and i do try to be objective because i already have too much emotional investment in what's going on here and there's a good chance it's only going to get more painful ~ hahahaha

    Finn is the least cowardly character in all of TFA. when he chooses to disobey the direct order on Jakku, he puts his life at risk. and when he rescues Poe to steal the TIE, he knows his chances of making it out are slim to none. are they selfish choices? absolutely, but they are ridiculously brave. Finn wants to live and to live outside of the FO. he has everything to lose with every choice he makes, and the choices he makes (while they contain selfish motives) are always, too, in the best interests of others. choosing not to kill was a moral choice that stood up against senseless slaughter. choosing to rescue Poe was definitely about acquiring a pilot, but it was also about giving Poe a fighting chance as well. back on Jakku he runs to Rey's assistance (though she doesn't need it), and that's what sparks his fight with her. when the FO arrives and he knows they are after BB-8, he doesn't ditch the pair (which he could have--easily), he instead runs with them and tries (inexpertly) to help. and on Takodana, he leaves his chance to escape to come back to make sure Rey is safe, then even trying (with futility) to chase down Ren.

    yes, Finn is a liar and he lies out of a place of fear: of being caught, of being found out, of looking foolish. someone who chooses what's morally right or good out of a place of such stakes and fear is braver than one who cares little for their life/safety and who is fearless. Finn risks everything to save Rey--first by going to Starkiller and second by challenging Kylo Ren. yes, he has some bumps along the way, but this is who he is and he's an amazing hero. to say he doesn't drive any part of the plot is too much. he rescues Poe, tells Rey BB-8's significance, probably triggers Rey's forceback by abandoning her at Maz's, helps the Resistance to know how to destroy Starkiller, carries Luke's lightsaber to the final showdown and wounds Ren with it (physically and emotionally) before Rey has to fight him herself. to call him mere comic relief is even more ludicrous. Chewie is funny in the movie, BB-8 is funny, Han is funny, Maz is funny, even Kylo Ren is deliberately funny. Finn's behavior is part and parcel of the overall tone of the film. Finn has his own moments of gravitas. no one in the film treats him like a joke and the only reason i see people calling him one is because they are disappointed he didn't turn out to be the Force-sensitive main protagonist. that's a ridiculous reduction of his character and all that he brings to TFA.

    and i won't hear anybody talk bad about him ~ hahahaha

    to finally address the hand-holding, we can take offense to it if we want, but he's concerned for her (and let's face it, probably rather attracted to her). i don't think it's patronizing at all because he wants to hold her hand. it doesn't have to mean that he thinks she's helpless. he could even be doing it, again, out of his own fear. in other words: he wants someone to hold his hand. that would not be entirely out of character.

    just something to think about.

    Finn went to save Rey. he doesn't care about the rest of it and even says so. that's all that matters.

    he senses something about her before the interrogation even: back on Takodana. so that bond or intimacy between them started much sooner. and yes, poking around to find resonances is absolutely part of what he's doing. he's looking at her as if she were a mirror in which he's finding himself. chances are he's never known anyone who can relate to his power or his pain and oh look, here's this scavenger girl and maybe, just maybe, she gets it!

    he definitely shows her compassion in his behavior, but he's still treating her like a prisoner, like an object, like she's beneath him. he thinks, i'm going to be a jerk about what i see of myself in you because i can't show any vulnerability.

    so: poor poor little lost girl! you're so scared and lonely and...wtf Han Solo? don't even!!! nyah nyah nyah.

    yeah. totally patronizing.

    hahahaha ~ i don't know about love. i have no objections to ReyBen as a ship (i prefer that term over Reylo, since it's not Kylo Ren she should be falling for), but it'll take a lot of work for these two to find equal footing. he's already literally let her whip him once and we'll have to see how the characters evolve. right now, he outstrips her in strength and power. but she easily bests him in stability and judgment. since she will never be stronger than him physically barring some unnatural event, it's possible their balance will always rely on his ability to protect and defend and her ability to keep him steady. God knows this isn't a popular idea in the 21st century, but again, there is nothing wrong with people needing each other. it ridiculous to claim that we don't.

    ha! like i said, i have no objection to a romantic evolution so long as it involves bringing Ben back from the dark and the two of them having a mutually respectful and giving relationship, which i think they are probably both capable of, though they are so far from any chance of it at the moment.

    their bond is going to fundamentally change the way they relate to one another. and it's probably going to upset a lot of people and make many others happy ~ one way or another. so i don't worry too much about how they treat each other right now. they have lots of room to grow.

    more importantly, i'm not worried about Rey.
    because yes, she can take care of herself.
    if Finn insults her, she will tell him.
    if Ren pokes her, she will poke him back (and harder).

    just to kick the nest a few more times: i am perpetually amazed by alarmists (not you: the really crazy people) who swoop in, make gendered accusations, and take up a fight for a character like Rey. as if Rey can't (and doesn't) fight for herself. as if the mere fact of some people treating her in a way we might not personally like is an affront to all women that needs rectification. as if the fact of holding Rey's hand or stealing her memories somehow makes her a victim and a poor role model. as if she she's not allowed to have conflict in the story. or even make a few poor choices of her own. as if she didn't ultimately put Finn in his place and drop Kylo Ren bloodied into a snowbank.

    Rey is a victim of abandonment and a hard childhood. But by the time we meet her in TFA, she is no victim; she is her own person, galvanized by her struggles. yes, she's about to find out she's so much more than just a scavenger, and yes she does need help and support as anyone does. but to expect that help and support to be picture perfect so as not to offend feminist sensibilities (let alone coming from men from whom we have no reason to expect better and who likely both are at least a little taken with her): that's asking too much.
     
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  7. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Thanks for sharing Greylo! I agree wholeheartedly with @FN-3263827 's take. There are lots of legitimate ways to interpret some of the seemingly patronising and condescending actions - especially toward a protagonist who is young, inexperienced, and slight in stature.

    I think Rey is a bit of a fairytale deviant. She subverts narrative tropes upon which some gender based cultural norms and biases undoubtedly play a significant part. I even think the film makers deliberately play on some tension around these norms - for laughs (hand-holding) and drama (duel, damsel ruses).

    But I can totally see how people might interpret those scenes through a lens of gendered discrimination. They say "art reflects life" and life still reflects some hard-to-justify hierarchies and prejudice!

    smash patriarchy.gif
     
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  8. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

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    are you sure about that? Cuz your last post is longer than anything i ever wrote :p

    I for one am loving my emmotional response. But what makes me different from most is that i dont care to dominate their opinions with my own. I just like to talk about how I see things. And feel, you know superior to others when they are unable to come up with something more than "kylo ren is a psycho" or "reylo is sick, man!"
    No one ever died from sharing opinions and discussion boards ARE the platform to do it! Problem arises when people are unable to accept or cope with the fact that not everyone (or sometimes even anyone) will share their views. It's like offending them if you think differently cuz most people have 'you are either with me or against me' stance. Which is completely wrong. Can you imagine a society in which everyone agreed on everything and thought the same of everything??? *pukes* there would be nothing to discuss or talk about and no movement of the ideas and the world would become stagnant and silent and we would probably die out as a race cuz no one would f*uck eachother cuz there would be no sparks or chemistry. Or we would end up fueling machines with our bioenergy. Total agreement is a fate worse than death.

    *shudders at the thought of having nothing to talk about* :p

    Whoa...this is not objective at all!
    Now i'm starting to get how i must come if to 'normal' people when i defend kylo:p
    I'll just ask you a question: in the context of doing heroic deeds in a fantasy adventure movie, is it bravery if one choses escape between the following choices: chance to live through running away or certain death by fighting the good cause? I always thought bravery is doing something noble for sake of others with certain death expected result. He only does that in the end. But still it is not really a choice as much as it is something that happened to him and he did it cuz there was not much else to do. (going after rey on skb, him attacking Ren). Up to that point he is a liar and a coward. A desperate one. Not a noble one. A fact. Not offense. You can try to color his lying to poe (its the right thing to do) or rey (yeah im with the resistance) or bb-8 (cover for me infront of rey and i will get you to your base-rey is a pilot Finn is unnecessary to get to the base) or han (im big deal in the resistance) as heroic. But that's just not it. Lying for personal gain is not heroic. It's weak. One could make a case for for him being the noble person for lying to resistance about knowing how to disable the shields on skb cuz he just wants to save rey. But note this to yourself: he endangered lives of other people who went on skb with him with that lie. Plus gave false hope to resistance people by saying he knows how to disable shields. I dunno. I'm trying to see things your way....but i just can't find excuses for lying. To other people. Deliberately. Lies make things worse and can only hurt those around you that care for you.
    And i have been thinking about this for a long looooong time. What is the main reason for me disliking Finn so much? When I was called a racist or manhater or femnazi or what not. It's simply cuz he lies to cover for his inadequacies, insecurities or fears. And I find that weak. I dont find weak men or women attractive even when they are objectively very good looking (like Boyega is). But...I do acknowledge that Finn is developing as a charachter through the movie. Changing his ways. And am expecting him to do better in the future. For me to start liking him all he has to do is stop lying ;)

    and this is a ridiculous overglorification of his charachter. Finn awakening rey's force sensitivity by triggering her abandonment issues? I feel the truth about him probably lies in between mine and your interpretation of him:) but turn it as you may....finn is not the main protagonist of st. He cant be. He isn't a Skywalker or connected to one? Unless this is a case of those triple/trinity yin and yang :p
    and he is not a hero. Heroes do heroic stuff when they have something to lose, despite the fact they have something to lose, not when it's their only option.
    In real life, I would call him a hero too probably for leaving an abusive relationship such as his with FO was. But not in the movies about saving the galaxy and fighting against the darkness and blah blah. He steps up from wanting to save himself to wanting to save rey. Guess its a little less selfish. But it still is a lot about him cuz i dont buy that he suddenly cares about her more than he cares about him looking good in her eyes and i cant shake the feeling he only did it cuz he felt guilty for his sitthy behaviour before.

    I dont bad mout him. I offer fresh perspective. All my obervations are founded in that which was presented in tfa :)

    That he holds her hand cuz is a coward and not being patronizing? Lolz...hmmmm I dont think so. I think it's his presumption that he can 'handle' the situation better than she which is the deffinition of patronizing.

    Sure he did. Just after he abandoned her. Which makes you think. Did he do it just out of guilt? Or cuz he basically had no other choice except turning out to be a total a*sshole?

    When i read this i cant help but think how selfcentered this too sounds. :D But there is something about charachters that feel lonely cuz they are so different from the rest of the world that makes their behaviour justifiable to me. No matter if they do bad things in the process of reaching out to find a 'soulmate'. Unless they too lie to cover their a*sses. God I hope they dont make Kylo a liar. I dunno how i would deal with that lol. :D

    Objectively she is a prisoner. That possess a piece of info that he needs. And he has the means to get it. And she wont give it to him. I dont think he thinks: oh i will now just be a jerk on purpose. Imo...he more comes off as a jerk than he is one. Like he cant help feeling compassion towards her but knows he shouldn't cuz she is an enemy so he corrects his behaviour going back on track from subjectifting her to objectifying her. But its too late already. She left a mark on him. A permanent one. By just being what she is. Lonely and scared and masking that with toughness infront of the world. Like he does.

    Nope. A pain i see there on his face when he mentiones Han Solo. A remembrance of how he too once felt the same for Han. Then the remembrance of how Han disapointed him. That line always makes me wonder: What the hell did Han do???

    ReyBen reminds me too much of Reybans....those are just ugly lolz.
    In my head...he is both. A Ben and a Kylo. No one in this world is completely light. There are some who like to think so about themselves, tho. Those i am weary of. Its a matter of knowing and accepting your darkness as a part of who you are then using it to be a better person the same way you do with your lightness. And its a thing that needs to be perpetually done. Knowing thyself well.

    Well...me for one have a very speciffic romance in mind. One that i am not sure it would ever happen on screen cuz it has so many necessary conditions in order for it to come to pass. His redemption for the right reasons and not for getting laid, her growing as a person in so many ways but mostly learning to think for herself. Them both shedding away their arrogant childish ways they have to hide their vulnerability....when i say it ren and rey...yin and yang, i really mean it. Total belongment, dedication and acceptance of eachother. Anything less for me would not be "it". Im sort off a totalirarian hahaha.
    But i will accept whatever comes to pass on screen. Not like i have any other options hahaha. Sometimes i kinda wish they f*uck their relationship up, so i could finally stop thinking about it :D

    I am looking forward to have all of us exploring their force bond interactions. Should be fun considering their antagonism.
    And i love your last two sentences of this paragraph. I will try to apply it to finn and rey relationship. :)

    She forgives to finn much worse things than ren ever did to her. There is a reason for that :p Ren's actions bug her more ;)
    A part of me dislikes that she responds to ren by poking him harder. Just as much as he did would be enough. The excess is her feminism acting up i think :p

    This is so true!!! On both sides tho! Dont you find fascinating that both femnazis and chauvinist men/women kinda have very similar reactions on this? I do. I laugh my a*ss off when i see the similarities in their behaviour. Cuz they both act like they know better how she should act. Hahaha. :D people are soooo similar even if they are soooo far apart. Just warms my heart to know that :p
    Btw...i know WHAT im talking about cuz i think im the only person that is banned from both jcf (anti reylo haven) and reylo-skyforum (reylo haven) for arguing the same: srop being such judgemental prickles about rey and ren and stop imposing your views of them on everybody else's opinion.

    Yes!!! YES!!! Exactly....EXACTLY!!!
    But disagree with that what you said that we should lower our expectations of people. If you set them too low you can never inspire people to break away from confinments of their minds! Lead by example!!!

    And lets cover them all in this conversations! Have you ever experienced such a thing? (You are a she, right?)

    I love that the most about her charachter :)
    She's not perfect tho...nor she should ever be..but there's a lot of room to grow. God i am looking forward to see it all :)

    This is so true. But i say....lets break them all...living your life safe and avoiding to cause trouble is such a boring way to go about it.... savvy? ;)
     
    #8 Greywalker, Jul 9, 2017
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  9. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

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    I LOVE Rey, but I hope she drives the action in TLJ more than being sorta dragged along by it in TFA. Think the AWESOME Moana! :)

    Man, Rey's faring way better thus far than Luke did in the OT! (Seriously - rewatch the OT and imagine if Luke's character had been female...) XD

    We're nowhere near gender perception equality in movies, including SW, but that's just a reflection of rl, isn't it?

    I remember how controversial Mara Jade was back when. She was like the female Han Solo and was slammed as a b-ch for acting and speaking in a way that would have won a male character accolades. (Although, like all characters in the EU, she was very unevenly-written.) I still love the idea of that character being translated into the new canon somehow. Not in association with Luke; I'm thinking an Anthology film.
     
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  10. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    But Rey was driving the action in TFA (except for her abduction.) She was the one that decided to help BB-8, the one who decided to steal the Falcon, who freed the Rathtars, who found and grabbed Anakin's lightsaber, who freed herself, who stood against Kylo and beat him and the one who actually found Luke.
     
    #10 Pawek_13, Jul 9, 2017
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  11. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

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    I'm not saying she wasn't active, just that she didn't drive the action. Her actions were mostly *reactions,* and prompted. Compare, again, to Moana.

    Obviously every protagonist will be reactive in a movie as well. But an important part of portraying Rey as the equal of any male protagonist is to portray her as more of a driver of destiny than someone who is primarily dragged along by it.

    Although I expect that we'll see some of that in her interactions with Luke :)
     
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  12. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    hahaha ~ word count wars!!! : D

    i'm all for debate and discussion so long as it's civil and people are okay with just agreeing to disagree in the end. sometimes emotions totally override logic and that's okay as long as you know it's true of everybody!

    oh but it is, totally.
    him too ~ hahaha
    you know who else is a terrible liar in this movie? Ben.

    he lies to himself, to Snoke, to Rey, to Han. it's a different kind of lying, but maybe even worse because look at the consequences.
    the tragedy there is that he may not entirely realize that he's lying, but he's doing it all the same.
    he and Finn aren't actually that much different and you know what?
    he hates Finn because Fnn had the strength and the courage and temerity to do something he can't: escape his own bondage.

    oh, this isn't even something i want to bother with. no, he's not the main protagonist and that's irrelevant. likewise being a Skywalker. and his abandonment triggering Rey's forceback is a reasonable interpretation of what happens. not that he's consciously doing it, but without him ditching her in such an emotional way at that time and place, she may not have been open to the call. they'd been sitting there hanging with Maz for a while and she didn't feel the pull until she was emotionally triggered. so no...not ridiculous and not in any way an overglorification. just saying that Finn matters. he affects the plot in important ways and he's heroic.
    meh. don't agree with any of this ~ hahahaha

    mine too.

    for whatever reason you are choosing to assume the worst. i assume the best.

    be he is. your judgment here is clouded. there is something very earnest about Ren Ben--and he's not deliberately duplicitous about his political motives at all. in some ways he's too honest. but on an emotional level, he's a terrible liar. "he means nothing to me", "your son is dead". he withholds information from Hux, from Snoke. he's a total mess of self-deception.

    because he's a liar. hahahaha

    look, i love Ren Ben maybe more than anyone though i try to keep my cool about it. but i see him for what he really is and it's not good. he has very fine qualities and can be an amazing hero. but he is also deeply damaged and deeply flawed. again, in that way, he's no better or different than Finn. and yet Finn chose right and he continues to choose wrong.

    i articulated that poorly. yes, that's exactly what we see, but it triggers him to abandon the conversation. in other words, it's all fun and games with him until he finds something in there that hurts.

    re Han: probably he didn't do anything; he just wasn't there when Ben needed him most. a lot of people want to argue that Han & Leia were abusive parents somehow, but it doesn't take much to destroy a sensitive child--even good parents can not know what to do with a kid who's struggling at this level and, as Leia said in hindsight, sending him away probably just made it all worse.

    so maybe cut Finn a break then, huh? hahaha

    no matters how it plays out, if Rey and Ben get together (and he will have to be Ben, regardless of his Light/Dark propensities because Kylo Ren cannot survive), people will find it objectionable. i'm not so worried about it. again, Rey will be fine and hopefully Ben will too.

    take off the gender filter. Finn is her ally (even if they are a little contentious at first). of course she forgives him (and seriously: Finn does worse than knock her out, kidnap her, tie her to a chair, terrorize her, throw her into a tree (justified or not), and then go after her with a lightsaber? come on.

    and of course she hits Ren back harder. she has no idea he doesn't want to kill her until he gets her up against the cliff. and even then she knows it's life or death.

    i never said we should lower our expectations of people. i said be realistic. what makes these characters heroes is when they overcome our petty foibles. give them a chance to do that. they don't just come out of the box perfect or else what's the story? where's the journey?

    in conversation when i defend Ren Ben people attack me with nonsense about: "would you feel sorry for Hitler" or crap like that. first of all, it's not for me to judge other people, period. i assume good will, i forgive anyone who asks, and i try to treat other people (characters included) with the compassion i would hope to get from others. i don't see how anyone could vilify Finn when he flat out has the deepest growth arc through the film. he makes mistakes, he makes selfish choices, but he's good-hearted, he's not a coward, and unlike some other beloved characters, he's not destroying the galaxy under some manufactured persona because he's emotionally weak and can't see how brutal and for **** his politics are.

    doesn't mean i love Ren any less. i defend him every day on those points for which he is defensible. we agree that for the most part he has a regard for Rey that doesn't need to be cast through a predatory/creepster lens per se. i think the whole film doesn't need to be cast through a gendered lens at all--for any of the characters (including Rey; the very idea of scrutinizing her in a way we never scrutinized Luke is actually kinda appalling--hahaha). but i get that people will do it anyway. : D

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

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    Waiiiit waiiit....if Rey were treated in TFA the way Luke was in ANH fans would be screaming from the rafters :p
     
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  14. Winterstar

    Winterstar Clone Commander

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    At the end of tfa it appears that Rey is confident or is she? Why after she left Ren does she glance back before she boards the falcon? it is on purpose there
     
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    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

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    It's a very interesting look. Not fully "confident" but not what I'd call "uncertain," either.

    Like her mind is elsewhere, almost?

    I'd love to know what was going through her mind between that moment and when she held out the saber to Luke.
     
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  16. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    In what way's Moana's/Vaiana's actions were "driving the destiny" when compared Rey's and why Rey's actions are more of "reactions" than Moana's/Vaiana's? Their stories are similar to a great extent, yet one is considered more active than the other one? If you would argue that Jyn has less agency, then sure, I'd understand that, but Rey?
     
    #16 Pawek_13, Jul 9, 2017
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  17. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    @JoJoPenelli, @Winterstar:

    she's looking back at Hux rescuing Ren, which was cut from the film.
    so she's either anxious that he's being saved, or...anxious that he's being saved (if you know what i mean). hahaha : D
     
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  18. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

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    Let's try now make a sensible counter in as less as possible words!!!

    I just like speaking my mind :D and analyze irregularities in my reasonings. They are fascinating to me. Cuz i like to think im no hypocrite :)

    Ben lies to himself. And his lies are not intentional like Finn's. Dunno if intentional is the right word...premeditated or deliberate, maybe? Also...not sure if it qualifies as lying if you believe it. His intentions are also not as pragmatic as Finn's who lies to get the best out of situations. For his personal gain.

    When I say he is lying to himself i mean this: he believes that expelling ALL the light from him will bring him piece of mind. And for that to achieve he is willing to will himself to darkness. He is wrong tho. There is no balance in the one side. This aint no Matrix. But he believes he can bend the spoon. And i think this what he is doing now is a consequence of him speaking the truth to his family about what he really felt when he was Ben...prior to his downfall.

    I think the only lie he said was "he means nothing to me". It was a wish more than a lie tho.
    What did he lie to Han? He believes all he said. In the moment he says it.
    He never lied to Rey?

    I dont know. I dont think Kylo as of yet thinks he is trapped. Certainly not before the bridge scene. Since 'traitor' comes after you could be right. But...i have just one problem with it. Finn did not choose to break away from his programming. His awakening just kinda happened to him. So what's the treason?

    Everyone matters. But he is not a hero of st. His actions are not selfless. And that is relevant. :)
    So...we ignore him ditching her cuz its okay it gave her visions? Even if it was so, its still bad, no matter what it brought her later.
    I hope that this 'ill just get the hella outta dodge and cover my ass' mentality he has is dead and burried in tfa. But, mweh...we'll see.

    Agree to disagree, then. :)

    I find it interresting that i only do that with Finn. And perhaps poe. And not with Kylo. Or Han. Or Rey. Or evwn Kanji Klub. But as i said, i go by my gut feelings.

    Is it a lie if he believes it to be true? Or...if he just doesnt know who he is anymore?

    I say, not. Calling kylo a liar is the same as calling finn a hero. Appearances can be decieving.

    Kylo is not damaged or flawed. He is hurt. And in denial. Not a good combo for an emo.
    Finn did not choose right. He reacted to what happened to him. By running away.

    Fun and games? He was not playing with her. He wanted to share why he would have disapointed her...And she said...i quote: "get out of my head". He saw she is uncomfortable and that he should get back on track...so he did...to the map.

    Oh God how i hate that. "Han must have hit him when he was a kid so thats why he flinched...". Disapointment. And abandonment. Lack of understanding. To a child that is a progeny and has the piwer of tge Force. They left him alone to deal with what was tearing him apart. And i am not surprized at Han doing so. But i am utterly surprised at Leia not being able to reach out to him.

    Dunno. We'll see :)

    In my head...Ben is light side. Kylo is dark side. He is both. And tbh...i am only concerend in Kylo being fine (i call him kylo cuz thats his name now). I have no doubt in my mind rey won't be. (I mean this as in i am sure she will be) But i dunno what they might do to his charachter. And its important to me that he finds balance.

    Yes. Finn is supposed to be her friend not her enemy. Betrayals from friends hurt more than when enemies behave like enemies?

    I just dont like excessive violence. Specially not from heroes. Why i dont like poe. Even if he is a 'hero'. Dont certainlt want Kylo to be a 'hero' like poe.

    Overcomming their flaws is what makes people in real life heroes. In movies they need to be noble too. Maybe Finn will be a hero before the end, lets see.

    Is that supposed to trigger me? :D
    Its not how the Force works...Finn :p

    I never did. Nither him nor her. But to her i relate. To him....not. Must be all the whinning he does in OT.

    I agree. But she is not most important either.

    How was Luke treated in ANH??

    She cares for Kylo. And she probably reflected back on what actually happened back there...in their fight. Seems to me she has some delayed emotional rections.

    But ofc...she is anxious whether he's being saved.
     
  19. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    well we know we fundamentally disagree about Finn, so probably no point in hashing that to death.

    i think he does lie out of his confusion, but i also think he knows he's doing it. it's absolutely a defense mechanism. he can't deal with the horror of his life, so he's created this persona, he's justified it in his politics, he's divorced himself from his family, and he's given himself purpose. that's all very typical of someone suffering from emotional/psychological trauma.

    so do we absolve Ben of any agency in his wrongdoing because he's mentally ill, basically? that's a tough question.
    i feel like, even sick, he can discern right from wrong and he has a responsibility that he's not acting on because he's in pain and he's afraid.
    he's strong, but there is some aspect of his will that is weak. part of that is Snoke, but he's an adult. he needs to get control of his life.

    and no, he never does lie to Rey. ; D

    to me it's evident he knows he's trapped from the moment he denies his father and through the "praying" to Vader scene, and even in his snarling with Hux. he's frustrated, he's angling, and yes, he believes in Snoke--that Snoke is the right path, but he also knows in his heart that something is really wrong here. seriously wrong with himself and the situation.

    hahahaha ~ you have it out for Finn. that's okay. i have it out for Snoke. in all the worst ways. hahaha

    tato, tah-to. he is wounded like the knight in the legend of the snakebite, which i wish i could find and share here because dang if i don't think that's how the ST is going to play out in some ways ~ hahaha
    maybe equally accurate and prophetic, he's the child with glass in his eyes, abducted by the Snow Queen.

    yeah, i confess i am frustrated with Leia. Han, i kinda "get"; having an FS son must've been very hard and he wasn't that good with people to begin with. but Leia...and this business of keeping the truth from him (which was her idea), is deeply concerning to me.

    not a fan either. i really don't want Ben to have anything to do with killing Snoke.
    i think that's not the right place for him unless he does it before he finds his balance.

    she's the hero who's journey we're experiencing this ST through. she is one half of the balance.
    i think she's pretty dang important. [shrug]

    he wasn't ~ that's the point.
    he was just allowed to be the hero without all this ridiclous scrutiny.

    i don't know if she "cares" for him. i think she feels their connection as he does. she certainly is curious about him, and she has to remind herself to be angry in that moment she tries to shoot him and he throws her into the tree.

    i wouldn't call any of that "caring" in the least. but she knows there's something between them.[
     
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  20. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Rebelscum

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    Without dignity XD XD

    Erm, I kinda disagree with 90% of your post but I don't want to pile on D: All I'll say is...if you're trying to compare Finn's morality to Kylo's...which is what it seems you're doing...I don't think that that's a terribly effective argument...
     
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