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Can TROS measure up to Endgame?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, May 2, 2019.

  1. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I'll type slower.
    Daisy and Adam have said they have known the fates of their characters since TFA.

    This isn't to say they only knew their fates IN TFA but the whole series.
     
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  2. Ganon136

    Ganon136 Intelligence Officer

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    There is no way this movie is going to outdo the numbers Endgame is pulling in, but as long as it has a successful conclusion to this 42 year saga, fans will be pleased regardless. Sometimes it is best to make an absolutely great story, even if the money isn't all there. It will keep people coming back to watch it for decades and be a talking point juggernaut. Give us a great finale and the rest is easy! I'm sure we will all have a fun time at the theater in December regardless.
     
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  3. Jase Windu

    Jase Windu Rebel General

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    Deep and meaningful characters in the ST...the verdict is still out. Also I can't believe this thread is still going.
     
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  4. atreides602

    atreides602 Rebelscum

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    I care for the new characters as well, but i hope you agree they at least should have put same people make the script for all 3 movies,for me tfa and tlj don't even look like they are in the same trilogy.

    I'll draw it slower then: i was complaining they did a crappy job planning the entire arc of the story , it doesn't matter the actors knew that arc from the beginning or not , which, btw, they didn't .
     
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  5. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Rebel Official

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    It's subjective - each person will come at it from whether or not they like Star Wars more than Superheroes or the MCU in this case.

    I'm personally a superhero fan first and foremost so it's easy to see where my bias will lean. TLDR: No, I don't think it can.

    There are a good amount of reasons for this too. Although most of this has been stated in one shape or another by other posters:


    Firstly, while Star Wars is still going on, its not the cultural event it used to be. The MCU has taken that place, and dare I say it rightfully so. That doesn't mean Star Wars is on the decline! It's just not as prominent as it once was. Look at Star Trek. They have made movies (relatively) recently and Discovery is in its second season. The Orville is still around as a funny love-letter to the original show. But will any of it make the cultural waves that the original series (and TNG and TS9) did?


    Secondly you've got the set-up. Discounting the fact that Endgame is a culmination of 11 years and 22 movies, Endgame had a great set-up in and Avengers: Infinity War. Characters dead or stranded, villains victorious, and at the end of the day only one question remained "how will they fix this?" TROS doesn't have that luxury. TLJ wiped the slate clean, resolving all conflicts outside of defeating the Big Bad. Any tension or speculation for TROS was rendered moot because every necessary question for the series was answered. Who are Rey's parents? Nobody's. Will Kylo be redeemed? Probably not, because he doesn't want to be redeemed. What about Snoke? He was an obstacle for Kylo, much like how Unkar Plutt was one for Rey; once passed, why look back?
    The final battle doesn't excite me personally because TLJ proved the bad guys aren't anything to worry or feel threatened by. Rey and Kylo fighting doesn't excite me because they've already fought, both against each other and as a team. What would this final fight prove, thematically? Unless Rey redeems Kylo and they die together...
    Overall I was excited about Endgame as a movie that would shape the future of the franchise as much as I was about it being a finale. For TROS, I'm more excited about it being a finale and how it will pay respect to the previous movie than how it stands as a part of the ST.

    One could argue that ESB ended in a similar fashion to TLJ too, but I disagree. ESB ended with Han captured, the missing "another" still unidentified, and Luke's feelings towards both his father and his mentor unsolved.


    Next, the MCU has more characters. Sure, one can argue Star Wars has better or more iconic characters, but at this point that doesn't matter. In the MCU there are a lot of people to put yourselves in the shoes of. Want a black superhero? We've got plenty. A female lead? We've got you. And that's not even getting into the TV shows. Now could they have even more diversity? Absolutely! But they're working on that. Or rather, they're working on that at a faster pace than Star Wars is.

    This also works for characterization too people claim that the MCU characters are flat, but I find them anything but. The Tony Stark we meet in the beginning of Iron Man 1 is a VASTLY different person from the man in Endgame. The Captain America who sinks into the ice in The First Avenger might still be fighting the good fight, but he's a very different type of fighter in terms of style, agenda, language. And these actors have played their roles more times than any Star Wars actor other has other than Anthony Daniels. RDJ has been Iron Man in 10. FREAKING. MOVIES. (counting one cameo in The Incredible Hulk). Mark Hamill has been in six. The MCU actors know their characters and act them well. And most importantly, their characterization is CONSISTANT. One of the largest complaints about TLJ - one that can't really be found anywhere else outside of maybe a scene or two in Rogue One - is that the characters aren't consistent. Luke most talked about example, but Admiral Hux, Poe, and Finn are also notable. The only characters in the MCU who can be argued for the same treatment would be Thor and Black Widow.


    After that we have the fandom. As mentioned by someone else, the MCU fandom is a very united thing when it comes to the movies. And speaking for myself, I only know of one person who actively disliked Endgame out of the 10-12 people I've talked to about it. Weirdly enough, this is the same friend who got ME into comics and superheroes by introducing me to Smallville and letting me borrow his Young Justice comics (he had - and still has I think - Kingdom Come and the Amalgam comics too...good times).
    The Star Wars fandom is...anything but. To be fair, Star Wars has been around for over 40 years with three distinct eras so to speak, so it's to be expected. But the MCU has come out with twice as many movies and nearly all of them are loved (and even the "hated" ones like Thor 2, Iron Man 3, and the Incredible Hulk still have their good points and their fans...except the Hulk one. That one's more or less persona-non-grata). And that is something to take note of. Maybe it's the fact that superhero movies are almost always rebooted, so if you didn't like the latest interpretation, just wait about 6 years and another version would come out. Star Wars doesn't get that luxury.

    But this is not to say the MCU has the better fandom - MCU fans are still bitter about how the Netflix shows and the ABC shows have been treated; and the Star Wars fandom at its best is an amazing, fun, warm and welcoming place. But at its worst...

    Lastly, the Skywalker Saga. It's ending. Maybe this is a good, or dare I say great thing. But I'm not entirely sure its what the masses want. Star Wars is caught in a bit of a catch-22. To survive the franchise needs to break out of its mythic chains; but in doing so Star Wars loses what makes it...it. Ending this saga feels like it's part of a larger symptom of Lucasfilm trying to "kill the past," to leave behind the rotten taste the PT left and move on in a new direction. But killing the past never works well. To move forward you need to embrace and accept the past, and THEN let go. Star Wars feels like it skipped a step or two. Although with JJ at the wheel, we might get the full version of this step.

    Compare that to the MCU which never had those shackles.

    Maybe this is all my cynicism speaking but recently Star Wars has been...lacking to me.

    This is the most hopeful and best statement around!
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    So you've seen 9 already?
     
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  7. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    I really don't care if it does, tbh. I haven't seen any of the Avengers movies and only like select superhero movies (Deadpool-don't start about whether or not he's an actual superhero,k? & Wonder Woman). I just want a lovely and exciting conclusion to the saga and I want it to do really well, box office-wise, which I think it will.
     
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  8. p03

    p03 Force Sensitive

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    Marvel is a pile of pants. I saw captain marvel and I had more fun going to the dentist. Spider Man is dumb and the actor looks like he swallowed a frog. Thor and his flying hammer going around and around in circles was just ridiculous. Everything is just boom, boom, boom. There is no pay off. The stories are sterile, there's nothing to them and the humour is bland but they make a ton load of money. So what? Not seen Endgame and I don't intend to. Will TRoS make the same money? Probably not the fanbase has crumbled. Will I see it? Well I like what Lucasfilm are selling us But the rumours from MSW and so forth? Not on your Nellie.(emperor)
     
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  9. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    So your not going to see The Rise of Skywalker?
     
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  10. p03

    p03 Force Sensitive

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    I want too. However, looking at the rumours it's more a case of thanks but no thanks. Top and bottom of it Jason Ward is putting me off. His rumours tend to be correct and unfortunately they sound awful. Which is strange seeing the trailer, the reading material and listening to the interviews it does sound compelling. MSW has left me cracking my head against the wall.
     
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  11. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    A lot of times rumors like those all come down to execution. My advice would be to avoid opening night but if overwhelming reaction to the film is positive then give it a chance and go see it.
     
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  12. Messi

    Messi Force Sensitive

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    Sometimes I think is just me, but I lost all the interest in the marvel movies... I tried with Dr. Strange and I could not even finish the movie....I tried with the Ant-man and it was just an ok movie...I just saw the first Avenger movie and its was kind of good but I don't have any interest to see the rest of the series, hard to explain.
    I remember back in 2004 when I watched Spider Man 2 I was amazed, one of my favorites super heroes movie of all time. But now, I just gave up...
    One question: Do they use the same cinematographer in the marvel movies? Because visually they kind of look all the same to me, this is boring.

    This SW ST so far its far ahead if I compare with most of the Marvel movies that I saw in the last 10 years.
     
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  13. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras Jedi General
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    In terms of the World Wide Box Office probably not but then China seems to love the Marvel while it dosent really like Star Wars.
    However in terms of the U.K. Box Office ( Which being from the U.K. is the one I actually care about ) absolutely it can after all TLJ beat IW at the U.K. BOX OFFICE so why not.
     
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  14. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Numbers wise it's veeery unlikely for TROS to beat Endgame. But numbers ≠ quality.

    IMO Endgame isn't that great, same goes with Avatar (Pocahontas in blue). Story- or content wise I sure hope TROS is better than Endgame.
     
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  15. MandoChip

    MandoChip Rebel Official

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    I'd rather it be a fun Star Wars movie than it "measuring up" to Endgame. I say this as someone who despises the MCU and loves the new SW movies.
     
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  16. YetAnotherSuperweapon

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    I agree that the ST is currently better than the MCU, but the Marvel cinematography gets way too much flack in my opinion. I believe this is because all of the big event movies since The Winter Soldier have had the same director of photography: Trent Opaloch and people have projected his dull work onto the entire MCU.

    The Iron Man films, Thor films, Guardians films, and the first Captain America and Doctor Strange solo films all have their own distinct look and style. It shows in scenes like the propaganda montage in Captain America, the opening scene of the first Guardians and the funeral scene in the second. While Opaloch's work in Captain America 2 and 3, Infinity War and Endgame has left the films grey and flat, relying on big set pieces for the "Wow factor".

    I would much prefer if Marvel hired a new cinematographer for the upcoming MCU slate, but I doubt that will happen.
     
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  17. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    I disagree with the no pay off.

    If anything, Marvel exudes payoff of watching all those films.
     
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  18. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Maybe it is because of my age, but I can’t really enjoy films that don’t work well independently... any SW movies in the OT and ST (and even in the PT) work well as a unit, as you don’t need to watch other films before to understand them... This was always the traditional way in cinema, even with films that had a second part. TV was always the place for serialised stuff and it was generally accepted that the TV stories had lesser quality because they inevitably always ended up becoming rambling, self-indulgent and inconsequential, as they were not subjected to the sobering restriction of a 100-150 minute time frame.

    Perhaps this is one of the reason why I have no interest in the avengers movies. Superhero movies have never captured my imagination (the only ones I have seen are iron man I and the superman movies with Christopher Reeve, which I enjoyed) but the fact that to understand endgame (or the film which preceded it) I need to watch a bunch of movies puts me right off... For me cinema is the highest expression of visual storytelling, a major art, like poetry and making movies in the style of a TV series kind of cheapens the genre and I worry that the MCU treatment of the superhero stories is doing just that... I may be wrong.
     
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  19. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    Of course it can.

    When you take a step back, Endgame isn't the coming of Christ that lots of people are saying it is.

    It was a simple plot line that almost everyone predicted, that only existed so the third act could happen, and even that was just a predictable orgy of fan service.

    That being said, I think fan service has its place, and I had a great time watching Endgame. But Infinity War was infinitely (ha) more unique, interesting, focussed, and well-written.

    I do want less fan service in Star Wars. Although original and riveting storytelling might not be as accepted by general audiences as something like Endgame, it would stand the test of time much better.
     
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  20. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Rebel Official

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    This is an interesting and fair opinion. But I disagree with it a little. To say that Star Wars doesn't do what the MCU does is simply not accurate. I'd go so far as to say Star Wars did it first. The Skywalker Sagas are episodes after all, and walking into ROTJ, AOTC, or even TLJ without knowing what came before is just as confusing as walking into Endgame without seeing Infinity War. We don't see this because we grew up in a world with Star Wars (or depending on your age, a world where Star Wars came to be ;)).
    Take China for example. They never really got the OT (and I can't remember about the PT), and the Star Wars box office has openly struggled and failed in the country because of that. The ST is built upon the idea of legacy and past characters - that's why it's a big deal when Han Solo appearance in the trailers made grown men cry and his death makes Kylo irredeemable to some; that's why it's a big deal that Luke throws away his lightsaber and we cry when Yoda appears; that's why whether or not Princess Leia appearing after Carrie Fisher's passing was such a huge talking point.
    Even the PT and anthology movies are guilty of this - both the PT and R1 are more or less driven by the fact the audience knows what is going to happen. They just don't know how. And Solo exists because the creators love the character so much. However, this is one of the two movies (the other being ANH) that can truly exist as a standalone story.

    Secondly, to your point that a time frame is a good thing...I agree to a degree. To say that movies can't be rambling, self-indulgent, and inconsequential is a big miss. Some would go so far as to say TLJ was all of those things (I would disagree, but I can't fault their feelings). Anything can be those three things. What matters is the intent and the quality. But that's beside the point. Television shows are also restricted by a 24 or 45 minute timeframe, but can still tell great stories within them. It just like Star Wars in that they don't have to rely on that timeframe to do all the work out side of that first episode.

    As for the tradition of cinema, I agree, that is the traditional way. But traditions change, and how we watch movies and television has changed drastically within the past 10-15 years. We didn't use to have Netflix and the entirety of a series or a season at the tip of our fingers (although to say we didn't binge before Netflix is inaccurate). Television shows gained larger budgets, started handling more complex stories that movies couldn't, and reached audiences movies didn't cater towards. And now, with the advent of "long-form story-telling," or whatever its called, the time limit of a movie can feel more like a restriction than anything else.

    Star Wars broke the division between movies and serialized storytelling; the MCU simply perfected it.
     
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