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Can we find common ground?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Lock_S_Foils, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    Dude, you're getting really "triggered" over one word used in one of @Lock_S_Foils' posts. Agreeing to diagreeing is kinda the point of this thread, otherwise it leads to petty squabble over something as insignificant as the word "apologetic".

    If you don't care about reaching a common ground, why are you in this thread? It seems that you're just TRYING to start a fight.
     
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  2. Oursourced

    Oursourced Rebelscum

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    Your debate about how no one should be able to surrender in war, and pretty much everything you posted in the Diversity thread as well.
     
  3. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    Right.
    I'm sorry Outsourced. You may surrender if you want to. I will never stop you.

    edit:
    Also, Outsourced, if you want to, start a Why Darth Mu needs to be destroyed thread. This is the Can we find common ground thread.
     
  4. JeffG.

    JeffG. Ewok Hunter
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    Nope. Not here, please. If you two want to reminisce do it in a PM or in that TFN thread you frequent.
     
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  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    89c.gif
     
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  6. rvtv

    rvtv Rebelscum

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    It is tough to say. I think TFA is pretty solid, and TLJ is okay. I think common ground is very reasonable. There is always gonna be haters and lovers, honestly it's hard to find people who really are neutral about the ST or even star wars in general. The reason I say "Tough to say," is because episode 9 hasn't came out yet. It's hard to fully judge something if you don't know the full story.
     
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  7. srg

    srg Force Attuned

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    It really boils down to subjective liking or disliking. We can have countless debates on various subjects, but a consensus is impossible. Not because people are not capable of talking it out, but because everything is so subjective. The discussions are fun, I like taking part and I don't want them to stop, but honestly they lead nowhere. Take Luke's arc and characterisation in TLJ for example. I love it, somebody hates it - 100 pages of discussion won't reveal who's right, because there's no "right." We can talk about differences, but it should be civil. I'm sorry to say this, but those who didn't like TLJ displayed poor behaviour more than those who liked it. And that's understandable, because negative emotions are what usually pushes us to negative actions.

    I will add that Star Wars is entertainment and delving into that world is a beautiful form of escapism, so I choose to stay as positive as I can. I tend to forgive Star Wars a lot, because I want to focus on the bright side of things. This is not a matter of life and death so for example the notion of what a "real fan" should like or dislike is not worth stressing out over. Personally, I can't imagine myself lashing out about something I hate instead of trying to spend as little time thinking about it as possible.
     
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  8. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    Right on srg.
    We should all be civil, and be realistic.
    For myself I always tune out the "opposition" as soon as they start swearing.
     
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  9. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    OK. Thanks. We have no common ground. Noted. Thanks for participating.
     
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  10. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    SW debates have been this way since the advent of the Internet as this same division went on during the PT days. I was a member of TFN and it was a civil war from 1999-05.

    What I try to do is stick with certain fans here I know and have built a friendship with and it never gets toxic. There are some people on both sides that are dug in and aren’t going to debate as they want to gush or crap on the movie.

    I did not like TLJ as it’s the first SW movie that I did not see multiple times in the theater. But I’ve come here to listen to the other side and seek out fans who loved TFA and TLJ (I loved TFA) and wonder what I missed? I see people like @Messi who we both agreed with on TFA, so I’m interested in why he loved TLJ and I didn’t.

    The cantina has made me give TLJ another shot when it comes to Bluray, as I will watch in a different context and hope I like it better. I’m actually looking forward to it now as I may have been too hard on it after my first viewing.

    The only thing I could say is just ignore someone who you feel isn’t going to debate here as it’s going to happen. But there are a lot of good people here who I like and disagree with so I sort of gravitate towards them in every thread.

    I hope that makes sense?
     
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  11. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    if we trim down the casino sequence....made snoke into the prime jedi and still killed him off with the theme of one recovering past glory dying while luke making peace with his legacy moving on. And Ditch the resistance all together and replaced them with the galactic alliance(a provisional government created by the resistance to take down the first order). this backlash would have never happened
     
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  12. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    ....in your opinion.
     
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  13. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    I love it all and everyone else is wrong!(Just kidding)

    I don't have a need to tear everything little thing apart. If someone else does then that's fine. And if someone hates it all then fine, but when the hate is so extreme that everything is a fight in a discussion, and someone has to be right and you become attacked over an opinion, then it becomes unfun. I've taken a break from this board off and on because of that.

    I'm enjoying the movies so far and now looking forward to the Solo movie.

    So, yes let's find common ground and get along at least no matter who hates it or who loves it. If one or the other then no need to try and persuade or attack another because of it. I'm not saying I'm innocent of anything. I've been snarky at times myself.
     
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  14. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    And there's the my-opinion-is-king attitude that makes so much of the Star Wars fan culture so b****y.
     
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  15. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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  16. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    I had no idea the employees of Starkiller Base get muffin breaks.....
     
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  17. YO-YO-YODA

    YO-YO-YODA Rebel Trooper

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    We can always agree to disagree.

    Everyone has got their own freedom of expression and more importantly their enthusiasm to share about SW universe is the sole reason why we all have created our user accounts on SWNN Cantina forum. If some one doesn't like the things you like in SW universe it's fine and there is no harm as long as the discussions are civil and polite.

    We cannot force choke or pull a Jedi mind trick on others to be on same page as we are, all we can do is to discuss each others point of view and respectfully agree to disagree, that's it chill and move on.

    Hey by the way this is Cantina, no need to be so serious, come on, let's lighten up
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    To see why the fan divide happened is actually pretty easy. A movie, intentionally designed to toy with expectations (it's different, it's different...) divided audiences. While some embraced the fresh take on the saga others were left behind. After the criticism TFA had faced Lucasfilm wanted to do something radically different and I appreciate this, even though I personally think that the anthology movies are more suitable for experiments and that they overshot their goal with TLJ. So while it's not surprising to see so many ambiguous opinions it is interesting to analyze why people reacted so strongly. I think the reasons for this go beyond the movie itself.

    First of all, to casual audiences a Star Wars movie is an isolated experience that exists in no larger context. They do not mind the absence of the Knights of Ren because they have all but forgotten about them. The hardcore fans however have been eager to learn more about the mysterious knights for years. Due to the lack of an overall vision the disjointed feel of TLJ gets stronger the more familiar you are with the saga and the more you like to think of SW as one continuous story rather than a series of independent installments. This probably explains why critics rated TLJ a lot better than fans, since their job requires them to review a movie as a standalone piece of art rather than a small part of a much larger cinematic universe. I can't help but wonder how the ratings for TLJ would have looked like had it been released as the final episode rather than a direct sequel to TFA. The audience ratings would probably be better if VIII had been designed to fill the gaps and prepare audiences for the drastic changes ahead of them.

    Another reason for the strong emotional reactions is, as bizzare as it may sound, the fact that Disney has done a pretty good job with the franchise so far which raised the expectations of audiences. After the prequels all TFA had to do was to be better than the PT. Rogue One was an anthology movie and therefore didn't carry the burden of having to live up to the saga films. TLJ however was placed in a "make it or break it" kind of situation. TFA had raised the bar substantially and in addition to that TLJ would have to live up to ESB, the paragon of SW saga films. When TLJ turned out to be "just good" but not overwhelming and its plot went in a completely unexpected direction expectations were not quite met. Instead of adapting expectations many viewers warped their experience to retroactively fit the way they had felt before TLJ was released . Group A decided to convince themselves that even the more questionable plot developments and Marvel humor was what they had wanted all along and that they had never cared for Snoke or the Knights of Ren anyways. Group B decided that not meeting all of their expectations was similar to not meeting any expectations at all. Everything about TLJ sucked and they had known it all along.

    Last but not least, another reason, why people feel so strongly about TLJ is that the current zeitgeist is geared towards black and white opinions rather than shades of grey. For me personally, there are as few movies I would rate 1/10 as there are movies I would rate 10/10. Both extremes are only appropriate in case of an experience that has a lasting effect on my perception of the medium of film, for better or worse. A single fantastic scene like the destruction of the Supremacy disqualifies the movie from being a 1/10 while the humiliation of Hux alone is enough to disqualify it from being a 10/10. However, most people do not seem to think this way. While extremes are usually excluded in reliable statistics (they are automatically considered to be biased) on IMDb 22% (!) of all reviewers gave the movie either a 10/10 or a 1/10. This kind of binary analysis of movies (worst or best, no in between) is one of the main factors while so many civilized discussion are destroyed by fans/haters and a well known IP like Star Wars suffers most from this kind of behavior.

    So what can we do about all this? Well, it's simple, really. All I need to do is to quote Mark Hamill: "Remember guys, it's just a movie!" The more we fans internalize this the easier it will be to allow criticizing TLJ while simultaneously appreciating its positive aspects.
     
    #58 BobRoss, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2018
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  19. TK-1204

    TK-1204 Imperial Special Forces
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  20. oldbert

    oldbert Jedi General

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    :) First time I can use the same text in two threads.

    I think because of SW being sthg that roots deeply in a lot of peoples personal mindset that are grown ups in the meantime, it has an enthusiastic but also extremly critical fandom. Not a little number of them feel like they "own" it in some way because it is really an important part of their childhood memmories. Therefore it is a very emotional thing.
    Now as grown ups we have learned to hide our "ownership claims" behind rational arguments and statistics.
    But I cannot see real objectivity in a lot of the threads here (including my own posts :)).
    We are "kids" here, playing around with our personal, very individual preferences and stereotypes like "LF sold out its soul to the big industry devil" instead of understanding that George Lucas saved his people a job by letting go (and enable a future for LF & SW) OR (one of my own) "TLJ is supercool and I don't want to hear anything else from anybody". :D
    I have a not always friendly reality in my everydays life; HERE in Cantina, I AM a big kid :D..
    but that's why I am (still) here :)

    Like wise people here in this thread have posted allready.
    Common ground = we (should) have a heart for SW.
     
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