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Can we find common ground?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Lock_S_Foils, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. SeaFishelle

    SeaFishelle Clone Commander

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    Sorry. I thought speaking as someone that loved the film but presenting my thoughts of the other side was playing to that idea. I was wrong.
     
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  2. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
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    I wasn't just addressing you, it's alright. You said to read things carefully after all. :)

    But, the trick of finding common ground means that any "fact" can be interpreted any way. We have to work together and clarify our terms and perspectives so that we clearly understand where each side is coming from, and then find that common ground. I believe common ground can be found, but it will take a great deal of patience and understanding.
     
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  3. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    Did someone say common ground?

     
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  4. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Is it a stretch? Absolutely. But it is still light years better than Mary Sue Rey in E7 and E8 who even admits she doesn't know how she did what she did.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 13, 2018 ---
    I don't know what forum you are talking about *wink* *wink* but I do know of another SW forum which, for some reason, got completely hijacked by a cabal of posters and mods who do not tolerate any disagreement with their accepted line of thinking. They demonstrate nothing but hatred and derision for others, and will quickly ban anyone who dares disagree.

    I guess some people like living in isolated, hate filled worlds where they don't have to tolerate hearing dissenting opinions.
     
    #104 Wolfpack, Feb 13, 2018
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  5. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    This right here is awesome and to me, a perfect take.

    And it goes both ways. I think every attempt I've seen someone try to make to extend a hand to the "other side" always has a barb in it. In the end agreeing to disagree is the best we can hope for at this point. I think there's plenty of common ground, but I also think the ST as a whole has fans taking issues on multiple topics, but not all fans have issues with all said topics (or the same issues). I strongly dislike TLJ for multiple reasons. I'll bring up Yoda since it seems to be somewhat less controversial than others.

    I didn't mind Yoda in TLJ as a whole. Yet even while not minding him, I had issues. I did not like him being able to impact the physical world. To me, that's a can of worms waiting to happen (referring to continuity, lore, canon, future uses of force ghosts ect...). Some people had issue with his humor, or his wisdom (or lack of) or a host of issues. For the most part, the Yoda humor is some of the only deliberate humor that landed for me. His lines were more or less fine, especially within the context of TLJ, but I had issues with TLJ so yeah, he didn't seem as wise to me as he did previously. Overall, I'd give Yoda a 6 or maybe a 7 (on a good day) within TLJ, which is high praise since most of TLJ gets a fail for me.

    But that's just it. In just a few minutes of screen time, there are 4-5 issues people could have with Yoda (quite possibly more). I find all of TLJ works that way. Which is what makes this topic so complicated. I might be your "enemy" on one thread, on the fence on another, or an "ally" on yet another, or something in between. I think the overall story is fine, but the devil is in the details, and I have issue with most of the details. But I don't want to enjoy SW movies as a historical footnote, I want to enjoy the individual movies, and for the 2nd time (AotC) I'm not.

    I think what most fans who dislike TLJ get the most flak on is diversity (or our "apparent" dislike of it within the ST). I can only speak for myself, but I love diversity, but I love diversity done well, and I don't think TLJ does it well. I think TFA had some issues, mostly minor because usually the middle movie of a trilogy elaborates and clears things up. TLJ failed to do that and thus we have this rift. It is one of (imo) many failures TLJ had and much like AotC, kills the trilogy for me.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2018 ---
    Not much defense that that moment was a Gary Stu. That however doesn't mean that almost the entirety of Rey has been Mary Sue. For her, it's not just moments, it's her entire story arc. Just like that Anakin moment, you can try and explain it away, but it's far easier to explain 3 minutes of time over a couple hours (plus0 in two movies.

    Another thing is that it was made very clear that Anakin was something very special, if not unique, very close to unique. He was the Chosen one. Though Rey it seems they are headed that way, it's certainly not as definite as it was for Anakin. They left mystery, which also leaves room for wiggle room. Is she Chosen to awake the force, or is she just a random force user who's really quick at picking it up? We have no real concrete explanation as to what she really is. With Anakin we had a Jedi Order and prophecy ect. With Rey, we're left to our own interpretation.

    We also know Anakin has faults, and major ones (if you haven't seen it, they come to light in RotS and the OT when he fails and turns to the dark side), while with Rey, we don't have the whole story but so far she seems immune to darkness and failure (true failure, not being too loving to someone who didn't deserve it).
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2018 ---
    I was happy to see this thread pop up until he failed on the delivery.

    If you want to close the rift, you can't start off by saying someone's opinion is wrong. Whether or not you think Rey is a Mary Sue is irrelevant, you are trying to mend the divide, so focus on what you agree on.

    I think Rey is a Mary Sue, despite that I don't mind her. She's portrayed in such a way that you can't help but root for her on some level. I see her more as a Jesus in a Biblical story told in space. Do I think she could be better? Absolutely, and have a better story to go along with her too. If Rey being a Mary Sue the way she's a Mary Sue was the only issue I had with TLJ, I'd have come around by now and would like the movie. If you're going to exclude me from a portion of the fandom that you want to find common ground with due to my opinion of Rey, fine, but you're betraying your goal to mend the rift.
     
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  6. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    nice post @Sparafucile

    with us all being so passionate about Star Wars.. it's impossible to discuss a film like TLJ without hitting 'bumps' frequently.

    the real issue currently is that there was a small minority of members (some that loved TLJ and some that hate it) who were going too far with their posts, too far with personal comments, and dropping troll/dislike ratings on posts that were not in line with their opinion of the film.

    put yourself in the shoes of someone who loves Star Wars and loved TLJ... you post in a thread that you loved it, and someone drops a troll rating on it. it's a horrible feeling. now let's go the other way - put yourself in the shoes of someone who loves Star Wars and didn't like TLJ. they are upset that the film wasn't what they were hoping for, and they say that in a post on this forum... and someone immediately gives them a troll rating for it.

    i absolutely loved TLJ.. it astonishes me that they could make a film that could divide hardcore fans the way it seems to... it's almost unbelievable.

    TLJ has divided the fans though.. and trust me when i say this, that it's upsetting to me that ppl that love Star Wars like i do.. didn't like TLJ and are hurting about both that, and that other fans disagree with them.

    we're talking my friend. failure or success depends on all of us here in the Cantina.. let's keep on talking ;)

    things will settle down, and we will all get along i'm sure. I'm fairly certain that Solo will be loved by some and disliked by some, but i think we've all got to be a bit more tolerant and just ride the waves... which look like they will keep coming.
     
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  7. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    See, the problem is that many, including myself, know the context of that term and consider it offensive.

    I don't want to provide any specific examples, as to avoid igniting any other powder kegs, but if another part of the fanbase was throwing around casual slurs, I'd see no reason to compromise in mending with them either.

    There's a difference between being wrong about trivial things, and throwing around sexist (and inaccurate, to boot) terms.
     
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  8. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    And there's a difference between criticizing a female character and being a sexist.

    I have found that people often fall onto accusations of racism and sexism when they have nothing they can say to address the point being made. Saying Rey is not a "Mary Sue" is fine, but to claim the very term is sexist is laughable.
     
    #108 Wolfpack, Feb 14, 2018
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  9. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    This is where I have to disagree, they didn't mess with the continuity and lore, they expanded on it to show the next logical step. Obi-Wan was able to sit down on a tree in ROTJ. Why is sitting on an object different than shooting lighting bolts to cause a fire? They are both interacting with the physical world. Also interacting with the environment is the logical progression of the living force. Qui-Gon wasn't able to recreate a force ghost, but Obi-Wan and Yoda was able to, which is the next logical progression from only having a voice with no body. If Yoda can become a ghost, whats to stop him from figuring out how to interact with the environment. It took Obi-Wan 19/20 years to learn how to be a force ghost, it's not impossible to think the most powerful Jedi can learn something new in 30 years time. Also if you believe in the paranormal, ghost can interact with the living world. Who to say that the same can't true in GFFA?
     
    #109 deadmanwalkin009, Feb 14, 2018
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  10. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    Well, as I understand it, the Original Mary Sue was from an ancient Star Trek fanfic where a character called Mary Sue was able to beat the Kobayashi Maru without cheating, Both Kirk and Spock fell for her and fought over her, etc...;
    So basically an insanely attractive woman who is not realistic in anyway.
    I don't really understand why it would be that offensive to people that their favorite character is being labelled Mary Sue or not. But that's beside the point.
    My point was why somehow if someone like me to label Rey as a pet character instead of calling her a Mary Sue, it automatically becomes none offensive.
     
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  11. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Because it stems from a gatekeeper mentality.
    Calling Rey a Mary Sue isn't just meant to describe her (poorly at that) it's meant to denigrate her as a character. It's meant to knock her down and put her beneath others, despite MANY (most) of the same arguments can be made about Anakin and Luke. With there only being one key difference.

    If you change the label but keep the intent the same, it won't magically be non-offensive.
     
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  12. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    Anakin and Luke are Gary Stus.

    *Wait for men to call me out for sprouting offensive remarks* ;)
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Sure.

    But the term is sexist.

    If you'd like, you can find many arguments against said criticisms of Rey, including some from me- your ignoring of them does not mean they do not exist. Nor does my calling out of this term.

    So please, feel free to educate yourself, and if you do have any actual topics that you'd like to discuss me, I'd be happy to respond.

    I mean, does being cringey count?

    The same arguments that can be made against Rey can absolutely be made against Anakin and Luke, sure (though, I'd like you to note how ridiculously some people actually do disagree with that statement).

    But considering how the term is just a spin on an already sexist term, I fail to see how more negativity applied equally can be a good thing...

    In fact, by giving them a different name, linguistically you're still implying that "Mary Sue" is a gendered term.
     
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  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    And the fact that NO ONE CARED that they were. It's only an issue when it's a "Mary Sue."
    A Gary Stu is just the "best character ever!"
     
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  15. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    For real. We get 38 years of Star Wars, and almost no one uses the phrase "Gary Stu". A few days after TFA, and the internet is using "Mary Sue" like it's going out of style. Don't come at me with that "it's not sexist" nonsense.

    edit: And hey, just to make it perfectly clear, I'm definitely not saying that using the term with ignorance of its meaning makes you a sexist. I'm sure all of you are perfectly reasonable human beings. But, given the points made here, I think we can all move forward, bettered.
     
    #115 cawatrooper, Feb 14, 2018
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  16. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Exactly!
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2018 ---
    :p
     
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  17. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I have no issue calling a character a Gary Stu, so Mary Sue seems fine to me. If there are those who are sensitive to that term, than as a character I find she is coddled. Coddled Person I believe is a term, or something like that? Again, "inaccurate" is your opinion (and those of many, that's fine, but many believe she is too), now if you don't want to discuss that aspect of TLJ that's fair and fine, it's probably a topic much of the fan base won't find common ground on, that doesn't mean we can't find common ground elsewhere.

    I'm just stating in a thread that espouses a desire to offer an olive branch, making that statement the way it was made kind of sabotaged the effort.

    An after thought... if you have issue with the term Mary Sue, and you feel you must address it, then don't use it yourself. Give us your preferred wording or term for the perceived characterization (and keep using your preferred term yourself). I don't want to offend, but when you yourself keep referring to it in that way, I assume you're fine with it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2018 ---
    From a narrative point moving forward it becomes a slippery slope. Is it possible in the GFFA? Sure, in a world where there's the Force, why not? But moving forward, why doesn't Yoda and Anakin and Obi-Wan all come and start striking down the FO with lightning bolts (never mind that I never saw Yoda affect weather patterns or use lightning in the past)? I'm sure Yoda can teach the others how. Do we really want ghosts fighting in battles? Oh, I'm sure they can come up with some contrived reasons why they can't or don't, but it will be contrived and a large portion of the fan base will feel it.

    So in the end, my issue is not so much in world, but more as from a fan looking at the direction of the series. It seems corny, especially long term. I mean, Qui-Gon just learned how to communicate 50 years ago or so, after thousands of years of Jedi and force users. To me 50 years seems quick within that context. It's not so much that they can't, it's more what's their end game, narratively speaking? Is this something they plan on using more in future installments, or was it just a one off, something they thought would look cool but didn't think of the ramifications moving forward.

    I think once you start to try and quantify the afterlife in specifics, things get weird and it will lose a lot of people, it will become more and more difficult to suspend your disbelief. When Luke saw Ben in RotJ, he seemed surprised. It was not a common thing, which to me seemed to imply that that feat alone was great in and of itself. Hearing his voice was one thing, appearing another.

    As for sitting on a log or using lightning, the difference is pretty great. Sitting on the log could have just been Obi-Wan trying to make Luke feel more at ease talking to the dead (a contrivance here on my part, but far less than future writers will have to do with Yoda and ghosts being able to affect the real world moving forward... but see how corny it feels already?). SW has the reputation of trying to one up previous installments (DS1, DS2, Star killer... Force users in the OT compared to Force users in the PT... now force ghost talking, then appearing, now affecting the real world physically) and sooner or later it will fall flat. TLJ already surpassed that boundary for some, and I think others are reaching their threshold on their ability to suspend their disbelief.

    Again, it wasn't so much that RJ was wrong in doing it, it's more a matter of "what was the point"? If he has some grand plan to use this in his future trilogy that makes sense and doesn't feel contrived, maybe he is genius. If it was just because he wanted the tree destroyed and make fans think the books were destroyed, there were simpler ways to do it without adding such a leap in progression as well as adding the potential of ghosts impacting life in such a direct way.

    Most real life stories about spirits seems to be minor things. Seeing butterflies after the death of a loved one. A dream. A vision (seeing a loved one looking over you after first waking up.) In the more intense cases, it's almost always negative (dark side?), as in poltergeist and such, or possession. Until now, SW kept the interaction between people and spirits similar to that belief, tiny effects that had next to nothing to do with the real world. Lightning bolts are not a tiny effect.

    In any event, I didn't bring up Yoda to debate him or his role in TLJ, but more as an example to how people have had multiple issues on a single part of RJ's story. If you liked it, I'm fine with that. I feel I've put in a solid effort to try and like this movie (more than I have any movie in the past, in or out of the SW universe), and I simply can't. So I'm at peace with where I stand. I hope I get a SW I like in the future, but if I don't, there's plenty of other sci-fi out there. I'll live on enjoying the installments with which I can suspend my disbelief and ignore the rest. Maybe one day they'll reboot it without TLJ, but what's sad is that they'll never be able to do it again with the original OT characters.

    And that is probably why so many fans like myself are so upset at TLJ. It was a unique opportunity, and us not liking what they did with it means we'll never see Han and Luke and Leia in a way that we're satisfied with.
     
    #117 Sparafucile, Feb 14, 2018
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  18. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    And where exactly did I say someone is "wrong"?

    I merely pointed out that things that I absolutely loved about the movie, others hated.
     
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  19. Mike

    Mike Rebel Commander

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    LOL... some really crazy Orwellian thought police stuff going on here... The term Mary Sue is not sexist, it's origins are not sexist (it was in fact used to describe male characters as well as female before the term Gary Stu or Marty Stu came along), but, could be sexist depending on the individual that is using it. To suggest that any use of it is sexist, instead of trying to determine it on a case by case basis is absolutely absurd and reeks of the latest trend of using sexism, racism, homophobia etc etc as a club to beat down the opinions of other people that disagree with you. To try to determine who is and isn't truly a sexist when using the term Mary Sue requires a certain amount of "thought police" which is a very dangerous thing to push onto people.

    I use the term Mary Sue all the time, and have heard both sides of the argument of whether it's a sexist term or not, and I would say to anyone that would consider me sexist that you don't know anything from anything and are just trying to silence my opinion thru shaming. I love good strong female characters in movies, no matter what movies they are. In fact, I would have preferred to see a Female villain to parallel Rey in this series.

    Rey is not comparable to anything Anakin and Luke had to endure. I have noticed time and again that people purposely understate what Luke and Anakin endure with their arcs in order to put Rey at the same level so they can make their argument.

    The major difference, is that Rey's arc is currently, at most, 2 to 3 weeks old.... Where as all the comparisons that people want to make to Anakin and Luke have to range across years. Anakin and Luke take steps, that can be explained, Rey takes Leaps, that really need some convoluted theories to explain.

    How does Rey pilot the Falcon like she did in TFA? Well because she uses the Force like Anakin uses the Force in TPM to pod race...

    OK, but in TPM we find out that while Anakin is the only Human that can Pod Race, we find out he fails at it as well, as he hasn't actually ever finished a race... ever... even with having Pod Raced many times (as per Shmi's comment that she hates it every time that Watto makes Anakin pod race) until TPM. It shows that even as powerful with the Force as Anakin is, he still has to learn and gain experience, and train.... Rey fails where? Fails how? learns where? Learns how?

    How many times has she piloted anything? Do we know?

    Anakin's skill is built up through his life experiences. His accomplishment (winning the pod race) does not exceed his skill by any huge stretch of the imagination. He doesn't simply state that he is a good pilot, than jumps in a ship that he has never flown before and now is all of a sudden a top tier pilot, pulling maneuvers that would make Han Solo squeamish.

    Luke? Again, we are told that Luke has become a pretty good pilot himself, like his Father before him. His ability to pilot thru the trench run is preceded by his life experiences of flying thru beggars canyon. His ability to target small exhaust ports is preceded by his experiences of targeting 2 meter womp rats. He hops into his X-wing, and despite being a good pilot, he can't shake the more experienced Tie Fighter Pilots and needs help from the other Rebel Pilots otherwise he would have been killed.

    His ability to use the force and visualize the exhaust port to guide the torpedo into it, is preceded by Obi Wan reminding him of his brief training of visualizing something he can't see, and oh BTW, training that he first failed at and needed his trainer to prod him along....

    Rey? She states she's a pilot... OK, I have no reason to not believe she can pilot a ship, but, than can anyone explain how exactly she is able to maneuver the way she does, out maneuvers more experienced combat pilots without help, maneuver through the tight spaces of the infrastructure of the Star Destroyer... and pull a maneuver that not even she can explain how she does it....? because of the Force? Sorry, the first two trilogies setup that "that's not how the Force works".

    The previous trilogies set up the need for some life experience and that Anakin and Luke have had to learn their skills, and the Force simply helps augment their skill further, to get where they are when we meet them. And even as strong with the Force as they are, and their life experiences, they still fail and need help from others...

    I could go on, but, it won't matter. I am sure I will still be a sexist no matter what...
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 15, 2018 ---
    When you stated:

    That isn't simply stating that you liked what others hated, that is stating that people are wrong for thinking Rey is a Mary Sue because they forget about Luke and Anakin.
     
    #119 Mike, Feb 15, 2018
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  20. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    Whatever. Thanks.
     
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