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Can we find common ground?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Lock_S_Foils, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    "People are apoplectic over Rey as "Mary Sue" yet seem to forget this concept is not new in the SW story (young Anakin or Luke), not sure why Rey doing things has made them so angry."

    Apoplectic means loss of control to anger. Though there may be a minority who feel that way, I think many people who think she's a MS are very much in control, but the way you phrased it implies otherwise. The loss of control to anger, in and of itself, implies those people are wrong. The wording implies that most (if not all) of those who believe she is, are apoplectic, and therefor taking things too far, ergo, wrong.

    Giving you the benefit of the doubt, it might have just been worded wrong (or too strongly due to the side of the argument you're coming from). Furthermore, I don't know if your opinion and those of others are the same (do you take offense to the term Mary Sue/Gary Stu?) who have like opinion on the matter. If you don't, then you using that term or bringing it up at all is no problem, if it is, then maybe avoiding that topic or not even mentioning it could have been a better course to take. IF you wanted to talk about the topic but take offense to the term, give us your preferred wording or phrase or term. I'm not being condescending here, I just don't want to offend needlessly.

    We don't have editors for our posts, so no worries. I'm just relating what I see in the statement and others have too, standing in your opposing view. Take it or leave it any way you like, but that's how many of us come to the conclusion that in your initial post you are already passing judgment on what is right or wrong based off of your belief as being the bar to meet.

    Anakin had Gary Stu moments, especially in TPM. Luke essentially got a lucky shot in ANH, while a ghost was focusing him (first movie, they were building the lore). In ESB 3+ years had gone by. He did not go toe to toe with DV, DV toyed with him and the battle was fought on two fronts, the lightsaber fight was the back seat to the battle of wills in that duel. DV was essentially setting him up for that big reveal, to get him at his most vulnerable state.

    You could say anything, but I could agree Luke definitely had some plot armor. Being the lead character does that, and that's fine, to an extent. That's different than being a Gary Stu imo though.

    Rey and young Anakin definitely are. I did not like young Anakin either, but young Anakin had more of an explanation than Rey does (chosen one, confirmed by the jedi council and prophecy ect...). TLJ was the time to explain Rey. I wasn't on here after TFA despite not liking her Jedi mind trick moment because I believed there was going to be some sort of reveal. When it didn't come, that was the watershed moment where I took a side.
     
    #121 Sparafucile, Feb 15, 2018
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  2. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    I am removing the term apoplectic from my original post.
     
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  3. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    lol, thanks.

    Moving along, to answer your question, most people seem to like the Luke/Artoo moment. Mark Hamil's acting, if not the direction of his character, also mostly gets praise. Beyond those 2, I'm having problems thinking of anything that isn't divisive about TLJ. There are other parts that I like or don' t mind, but I know a lot of others do have issue with, without going into the musical score and the visuals and such, which are largely liked too.

    Other common ground is Finn. Though not unanimous by any means, there seems to be a lot of fans both who like and dislike TLJ who feel his character wasn't given a very fulfilling role. That could also go for Artoo and Threepio who seem to be being cast aside.

    I've heard people mention the lack of diversity in alien characters in more noteworthy roles. A small harp, but I think there is support there on both sides of the Fandom too (Which I think might tie into the dislike of Ackbar's death. One of the few aliens with some back story who could have given us that missing element.)
     
    #123 Sparafucile, Feb 15, 2018
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  4. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    We can all agree on one thing...in terms of popularity the new characters are peanuts compared to Luke Han and leia...it is brutally telling to me that none of these characters outside of poe have any "expanded universe" mania that vader, Palpatine, Luke, and thrawn has.

    It won't suprise me if the sequel trilogy Era gets less stories than any of the three eras...the rebel vs empire redux destroyed any intrigue that post-rotj had
     
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  5. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

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    Rey is cool. The other members of the the ST "big three" are on the little league field.
     
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  6. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Just a quick response to some of the questions you posed @Mike .
    I share a lot of your views - I don't see anything bigoted about calling out a protagonist's plot armor or super strengths and we all get some negative ratings here that often make little sense! :rolleyes:
    *puts contrarian hat on*
    In TFA Rey tells Finn "I've flown some ships but I've never left the planet." (It's not easy to hear because they are talking over each other.)
    Yeah, she's more independent than Luke and Anakin but she did grow up with little to no support network.
    Luke had a family and Anakin was about as privileged as one could hope for by the time he reaches Coruscant.
    Rey's a hardened survivor so emotional and existential challenges make sense.
    I think she's more comparable to Han in many ways.
    Fair points but it's tricky to compare.
    Luke had astromech and wing support.
    Rey had local knowledge and gunner support.
    She needed help from her allies to survive both movies.
    She acts like she surprised herself with her abilities but it makes sense from more than a 'because Force' angle.
    She had shields, was familiar with the terrain, and had professional knowledge of the layout and dimensions of ships she was piloting through.

    edit: typo
     
    #126 Moral Hazard, Feb 15, 2018
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  7. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    hi @Mike,

    ppl do need to be very careful throwing around the word 'sexist'. that term (and others) is thrown about with carefree abandonment these days. When it's used badly... it's bloody damaging. You are not sexist, and nobody is trying to silence your opinion.. i'm sorry if you were made to feel that way - i don't think it was intended for what it's worth.

    as for the term 'Mary Sue'.. i don't particularly like it either. from both sides here... those that like Rey and those that think Rey is overpowered etc, the term 'Mary Sue' is a derogatory term.. it is a negative term. it isn't used occasionally to describe her as being over powered or whatever... it's being used as a nick name for her.

    i don't really care if people use it or not... but if some people don't like it, take offence to it or whatever.. why not stop using it?

    this is not directed at you @Mike.. but we've all been around these forums a long time now, so let's not pretend that a lot of folk don't use that term because they know it offends some people. to be blunt... people Maclunkey well do and we all know it.
     
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  8. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    Fair points. Sucks that you couldn't enjoy TLJ. Hopefully Han Solo, Episode 9 or a future SW movie will make you more excited about the franchise. To be honestly, The window for the original 3 was way long gone. I think George made a huge mistake on doing the PT instead of ST. It sucks that we couldn't have the original 3 together but I understand Disney reasoning. They would over shadow the new cast, almost like why Ironman wasn't heavily featured in Spider Homecoming.
     
    #128 deadmanwalkin009, Feb 15, 2018
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  9. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I appreciate the olive branch this thread offers, and I think meeting on common ground is very important. But as stated earlier- while I'm willing to try to see fan theories face to face, this is something that should not be compromised on. This isn't a fan theory- it's an outdated and misleading term.

    And that's fine about how egalitarian you apparently are, but how often do you use "Gary Stu"? Because unless you're an extreme outlier, it's probably not often. I don't remember if it was on this thread or another (because honestly, this weird and awkward crusade for guys to justify their use of this term seems to have stumbled into multiple threads) but we pointed out earlier that despite how applicable the term is for both Anakin and Luke, it didn't enter widespread use until 2015, nearly 40 years after Star Wars started. Don't tell me that the term doesn't carry a sexist connotation, because that simply does not reflect the reality of the situation.

    And as to your question, I don't think any specific term is currently needed. Instead of a convenient buzzword that you can shove a character into a box with, perhaps people could think about the character and form more complex thoughts and ideas about them.

    And as @Maximus points out, I'm not calling anyone here specifically "sexist". I think people genuinely don't understand the connotation that terms like "Mary Sue" carry, and I'm sure most people here (including you) are outstanding people. I think that if you're genuinely interested in pursuing information on this term and how you can better yourself by using other, more useful ways of discussing characters, you're fully capable of that now, and I'd commend you for it.
     
    #129 cawatrooper, Feb 15, 2018
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  10. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Rebel Official

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    I didn't even know what Mary Sue meant until people used it after TFA due to some YouTube reviewer using it. I think the term has really stopped many SW fans from finding common ground on the Sequel Trilogy and the term in general has a bad connotation. As some people believe it is a sexist term, while others perceive it as a valid criticism.

    I wish we could just discuss the positives of Rey's story and development, along with the negatives, without the term as it just causes issues.
     
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  11. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    I'd be happy to have a discussion with you if you stop using terms like "sexist" incorrectly. I have had the discussion of whether or not Rey is a Mary Sue with several other members. But it is clear you are not really interested in debate when you throw around that term.

    Calling someone's statements "sexist" is an attempt to silence them because sexism is not tolerated (nor should it be). It is an attempt to get the individual to not be allowed to criticize someone in a particular way. However, there is nothing sexist about the term. Please feel free to educate yourself.
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Hey Wolf,

    Refer to my most recent post here:

    Not trying to call you or anyone else specifically out. Sorry if you feel attacked. Let's move on and get back on topic, and I'd advise doing so with the knowledge of what I've suggested in mind.
     
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  13. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    How is Rey a Mary Sue in TLJ. Explain it to me. I dare you! :p
     
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  14. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    if the backdrop of the sequel trilogy was more cold war gone got(with the resistance in the middle of both)....then say galactic civil war 2.0, than much of the backlash against TLJ would not have happened.


    no casino plot

    no accusations of bad worldbuilding

    bigger more endor inspired space battles

    Gray storytelling...the resistance would not be fighting for freedom but will just be a means of which the galactic republic can undermine snokes regime...so that the first order attacks first and they can invade the first order for its kyber crystal resources.

    you could have the first order be a energy superpower, maybe they have a monopoly over kyber crystal energy sources...kyber crystals being powerful sources of energy. if every world of the republic pays 300 billion credits and add 6 million worlds to the republic...you would get quadrillions of credits. this energy monpoly would allow for the first order to have immense influence over the galaxies economy.
     
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  15. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I remember Mary Sue being used an a character from the old EU (now legends)... Corran Horn.

    And he was definitely a Mary Sue (and no, I've only started using Gary Stu, first heard it here. I don't see Mary Sue as gender specific). There was another term for it then too, but for the life of me I can't remember it.

    http://bittersweetfountain.blogspot.ca/2013/07/corran-horn-rogue-9-jedi-and-mary-sue.html

    Dated 2013, the term is not new and only used on females. There was another term for it too, but I can't remember it specifically. I remember reading the X-wing series in the early 2000s, I believe they came out in the late or mid 90s. Corran Horn was quickly labeled a Mary Sue. I remember reading about the X-wing series and I was happy I wasn't the only one who picked up on Corran Horn's wish fulfillment character.

    It's a thing, and isn't only in relation to Rey or female characters. Maybe you prefer wish fulfillment character, since you won't give me a term, I'll try and find one lol. I've even seen written on these very forums by people who like Rey and TLJ saying Rey is written to be one of us. She seems to know what the fans know and she's an insert for the fans. If that's the case, Mary Sue isn't that far of a stretch. At the very least, there are wish fulfillment characteristics to her.

    I'm not saying necessarily you, but I wonder if some people don't want Mary Sue mentioned because they simply don't want or don't accept any discussion on the topic. In their mind she's not and they don't want to talk about it. If that's the case, it's fine, say so and I think most people will respect that. But if that's the case, don't bring it up for discussion, and don't interrupt if others want to debate it if you find debating it upsetting. I'm not so much saying you can't, but not everyone takes exception to the term, not everyone takes offense at the suggestion, so if you don't want to talk rationally about it, why interfere with those who want to?

    It's not sexist for me to call Corran Horn a Mary Sue, and it isn't for me to call Rey one either. It's an observation and an opinion. For many of us it has nothing to do with gender, but the characterization. Their too perfect, too good looking, too charming, their faults double as qualities, their mistakes turn out to be good fortune. That last statement is about Corran Horn, but it fits Rey too. At least I think so and many others do.

    Again if you don't want to wade into the debate, that's fine, but don't wade into it then call us sexist after because you can't convince us otherwise.
     
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  16. Mike

    Mike Rebel General

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    All Hero's get a level of plot armor... the why Stormtroopers can't hit the broad side of a barn type plot armor, or the Finn and Rey are standing right next to the spot where a round from a Tie Fighter goes off, and they can get up and start running again... Which on a Side note, it's funny how when Padme falls out of the Gunship and gets right up, a segment of Star Wars fans threw a fit... but crickets to when it happens to Rey and Finn... but I digress.


    Anyway, a little plot armor is not what makes Rey a Mary Sue.



    I remember it, my questions were more about what we know about her not matching the level of skill it would take for someone to do what she did, Force or no Force. Again, the Force, as we saw it in the previous two trilogies, doesn't create skill, it augments it. Anakin and Luke are clearly made better pilots by the Force, but, it's also clear that Anakin and Luke have spent significant time piloting. Rey's comment about having flown some ships is clearly made in order to downplay her skill, and have it upstaged as the Force allowing her to do it. Again, it's not what we have seen from the previous two trilogies. It reeks of Abrams not wanting to invest even the slightest bit of time in giving us a little context as to why she can do the things she does and keeping it within the already established lore and mythology.



    Did she need help? TFA pretty much spends every chance it gets showing Rey doesn't need help. You said it yourself, she's a loner, doesn't work with anyone else, relies on herself to scavenge. Finn finds her, and we are shown right away that she doesn't need his help fending off a couple unarmed, and not so bright thugs. We are than shown how silly and chauvinistic Finn is as Rey chastises him that she doesn't need his help to run (holding her hand). Finn needs Rey to get away. Rey doesn't need a co-pilot to fly the Falcon and pull off the maneuvers that she does. Finn is the gunner, he does take down one of the two Ties on his own, but after that, Rey takes the other out by out-maneuvering the other pilot thru the Star Destroyer wreckage, and Finn needs her to pull off the move of a lifetime to get him a clean shot. It's Rey that saves the day by knowing how to fix the poisonous gas leak, it's Rey that saves Finn again from the monster. It's Rey that teaches Han about the Falcon. Han and Finn go to starkiller to save Rey, but, she saves herself. Finn tries to save Rey from Kylo in the forest, gets his ass kicked, so than Rey saves Finn and defeats Kylo. Chewbacca is the equivalent of an Uber driver at that point. The other characters might help out from time to time with relatively non important tasks, but, the movie clearly sets up that Rey needs no ones (especially not a mans) help.



    This is what I was talking about with convoluted theories. No matter how well she may have known the inside of the Star Destroyer, or how strong she was with the Force, there is nothing in the movie that sets up she has sufficient skill to do what she does. Once again, Luke and Anakin are setup that their life experiences and skill play a part in what they do. As I wrote about already.



    Just because someone finds something offensive doesn't mean the world has to a stop for them. The use of identity politics that is employed these days to try and disqualify people from discussions is ridiculous.


    The idea that someone finds the term Mary Sue sexist based on building a false ideology around the word, and thus they are offended by it, so they get to dictate to others whether it should be used or not is a very scary road to go down when it comes to free speech. The fact is, that Mary Sue is not inherently a sexist term, it was not started as a sexist term, and just because some people that are sexist use the term doesn't mean society should be shunned from using it in order to protect the delicate dispositions of those that can't use their brain to separate real sexism from their own perceived sexism built around a word that is not sexist in nature.


    I would suggest those that want to hide behind Mary Sue being an inherently sexist term might want to google "is Wesley Crusher a Mary Sue". This is a male, not female, character from Star Trek The Next Generation. This character, even today is referred to as a Mary Sue. Not a Gary Stu or a Marty Stu. There are numerous make characters that have been called Mary Sues over the years.


    The term Mary Sue was not named so, nor had anything to do with sex or gender of the character. The trope, theme, Mary Sue got its name because that was the name of the character that the trope was first founded under. The trope started with a woman writer, creating a female character (Mary Sue) that made fun of fans that wrote their own stories in which it was obvious the "Mary Sues" of that fan fiction were perfect because the authors were inserting themselves into the stories as those characters. If the female writer had made Mary Sue a guy, than we'd be using that name right now, and I bet there wouldn't be all this sexist talk than.



    You dare me? What if I refuse? Will you Double Dog Dare me? Or will you just jump to the "coup de grace of all dares" the triple dog dare?


    Or should we just meet behind the school and have a throw down? FFS...


    Anyway... Rey in TLJ is just a continuation of what was started in TFA. So that's where we start. JJ Abrams, couldn't help himself in that every time someone stuck a microphone in front of his face, he was telling everyone how big a Star Wars fan he was. How many times did we hear about the Jawa Halloween costume ? How he loved ANH? Etc etc etc.


    So then, at one of the TFA panels (either comic con or celebration) Abrams tells everyone that going into TFA, the most important thing to him in writing the story was what "delighted" him. He than goes in to make a movie that relies heavily on nostalgia and "member berries".


    So we have a fan, that writes a story, that relies heavily on nostalgia that fans would love. Thus we have the most expensive piece of FanFic ever created.


    Within this FanFic Abrams creates a character that exemplifies near perfection. Good looking, athletic, fit...The major canonical characters she meets love her almost instantly! They hug her, they respect her, hell they even ask her to join their crew with only knowing her for hours! This character does virtually no wrong, needs little to no help getting out of bad situations, and seems to have unexplained abilities that put her far and above even the canonical characters she meets...


    Obviously I'm talking about Rey. In my opinion, Rey fits almost to a "T" the original reason why the character "Mary Sue" was created and used as Satire to make fun of poor fan fiction. It reeks of Abrams creating a character that he would want to be in Star Wars a character that is overpowered, saves everyone, and that everyone loves even after first meeting them.


    Johnson doubles down on her, especially with the throne room fight. Even though we are two movies into the ST, the actual timeline is around two weeks, give or take a couple days. In that span of two weeks Rey goes from beating up petty thugs, who are unarmed and not so bright, with some simple stick swinging, to taking on and beating highly trained warriors, who this time aren't holding back, aren't wounded, and aren't dealing with the psychological trauma of killing their daddy (as goes the excuses as to why she was able to defeat Kylo Ren in TFA).


    She has held a lightsaber in her hand for about two weeks, has had no training with it, none, absolutely zero... no one to tell her to not trust her eyes, no years of training with the Force and remotes, etc etc... two weeks that's it...And she walks away from taking on multiple, highly trained adversaries with a boo boo on her shoulder. Than to top it off, again the doubling down of her extraordinary ability to use the Force, she is able to match the use of the Force by someone who has had years of training in the Force, how to use the Force, how to feel the Force, compared to her 2 weeks with no training.



    Luke says she has raw power... right... raw power because she hasn't been trained... hence raw... Luke felt that raw power before, Kylo, thus why he trained Kylo. Kylo = trained raw power, Rey = untrained raw power.. yet... we have the Throne Room fight. They didn't even have the guts to cut off one of her fingers....


    Her "failures" aren't really failures... she was tricked into thinking Kylo could be saved. It's not her fault she couldn't convince Luke to come back, short of kidnapping him (which of course would be morally wrong) she had no choice but to leave him there.


    The creepy Kylo/Rey love thing again screamed of poor FanFic, and seemed obviously injected to satisfy that segment of the fandom that wanted a glimpse of Reylo.


    I could keep going, but as I've said before, it doesn't matter because I'm sure In your mind I'm wrong anyway...
     
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  17. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Or it was planned this way all along? The "creepy ReyLo thing" is exactly what many of us predicted upon watching TFA. It made sense. JJ hinted at it several times in interviews. You just missed that and in stubbornly sticking with your view, missed all the subtle reasons why "ReyLo" makes a whole heap of sense.
     
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  18. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Oh, she was "tricked into thinking Kylo could be saved"? Wow, does that sound like a Mary Sue to you? You see, no argument about TLJ. Only retrosprective stuff on the Force Awakens. Here are a few questions about TLJ for you:

    1. Is Rey immediately liked by everyone in TLJ, and especially by all the male characters?
    2. Is Rey portrayed as all-knowing in TLJ?
    3. Is the hierarchy of knowledge in scenes with male characters always in favour of Rey's?
    4. Does Rey succeed in everything she attempts to do?
    5. Are Rey's skills presented as superior to those of the male characters she encounters and engages with?

    Good luck! :p
     
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  19. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Apologies if that read a little condescending, I wasn't sure how literally to take your question...so I just took it literally! ;)
    That's a great description of how I read Rey in TFA.
    I guess I don't see the difference between her previous experience flying ships on world and Luke's.
    She understands the theory and controls and acknowledges previous experience utilizing them - it's The Force that aids her multi-tasking and situational awareness. (Since reading Terry Brook's TPM I often imagine it as seeing things in slow motion).
    I'm as happy to accept Rey's comments about flying ships on Jakku in the same way as I accept Luke's comments about flying a T-16 on Tatooine.
    Fair enough.

    As far as common ground goes, I can accept this as a fair reading by certain definitions of the term e.g. Urban Dictionary's "a fanfic character who is so perfect as to be annoying".

    Wikipedia's description of "usually performs better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience" is also subjective enough to reflect the audience's interpretation of what's possible within a story.

    In a galaxy where magical powers can allow a young man to sense laser bolts with his eyes shut or a young boy to race vehicles no other human has been capable of, I can accept The Force can turn a novice female pilot into an outstanding one.

    Each to their own though.
    It's always good to learn how others see things differently. :)
     
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  20. Mike

    Mike Rebel General

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    Lol... so is this where you're going to tell me about the "bridal carry"? Perhaps how easy Kylo went on Rey when torturing her as compared to Poe? Or the ever romantic unmasking of himself for her? Yes I see what you mean...


    So Kylo does to Rey what is the Star Wars equivalent of a date rape drug, incapacitates her so he can do what he wants with her, and because he carries her away and not his Stormtroopers, she starts to generate feelings for him. How wrong could I have been...

    oh and because he mentally Force rapes her, instead of physically assaulting her like he did to Poe, well yes, that's a clue of the budding relationship that is ReyLo. I mean what woman can't resist a man that is so nice, as to not physically rape her, but only mentally. How could I have not seen Rey's glowing and building admiration for Kylo.

    And than the icing on the cake, Kylo's unmasking of himself before Rey. Nothing better to take a woman's mind off the kidnapping and torture she has endured like a good ole fashion unmasking... how silly of me for not seeing it... Yes it all makes sense now...

    :rolleyes:

    Just wow...I can't believe that people are upset over the term "Mary Sue" as a sexist term, but yet, here we have the actual advocate of a potential relationship that we as a society, for decades, have been telling women, teaching our daughters, that I have taught my daughters, should avoid. The whole domestic abuse relationship where the woman stays with an abusive man... "He doesn't really mean it", "he says he loves me", "he's really sorry after he does it" I can picture Rey's responses already....

    Nothing speaks sexism like stereotyping women as being so unbelievably brainless as to be swooned and swept off their feet by a good looking guy, with nice muscles, with a full head of hair, even when that woman has suffered abuse by the guys hand, and oh BTW, he makes a habit of killing people, innocent people....

    That's the icon we want our kids to emulate? That's girl power? No morals, no thought process, just hey I will ignore all that bad behavior because he's hot, and mysterious, and when he kidnapped me he carried me himself and when he raped me, he only raped my mind, and he was nice enough not to physically beat me as he had me strapped to the table...

    If this is the story Abrams has in mind, than he is pretty sick.. I don't know if he has a daughter or not, but if he did, I can't imagine he would be OK and stand idly by if his Daughter brought home a Kylo Ren...

    So yes, imo, What happens in TLJ is creepy. If Abrams is advocating it, that makes it all the more creepy. Thank Goodness I am stubborn...

    No, I wrote a whole section of how TLJ continues many of the Mary Sue traits that were started in TFA. As for this:



    LMAO... this is the type of stuff that makes me chuckle and really doesn't interest me in trying to maintain a conversation with you or anyone that pulls this crap... It's about as intellectually dishonest and predictable as one can get. Your 'questions" are purposely setup to be extremely specific to try and box my answers into responses that favor you. When the fact is that none of the specifics you are giving in your questions are part of the "Mary Sue" trope. The Mary Sue trope has nothing to do with only Males liking them or only being more powerful than males, nor does the Trope suggest that all the characters have to immediately like them.

    These are factors that you are purposefully throwing into the question to limit my answer into a more favorable way because you know that the vast majority of people that Rey has met in the two movies love her, she has become more powerful and at a faster rate than the vast majority of the people she meets in the two movies. So you are purposefully trying to steer my answer into one specific person, because that's the only person that you can find (that isn't a bad guy) that you thinks frees Rey of her Mary Sue-ness. So you're trying to get me to say one specific name, so you can go AHA, got you, but, you convenislty ignore every single person in the two movies that fulfill the Mary Sue tropes for Rey, except one.

    Furthermore, Mary-Sues are not defined by a must meet checklist of criteria, as you want to infer here...

    And even if I sat here, and gave my answers for each of your questions, they would 'A" not be good enough for you, or/and "B" Would be followed up with even more ridiculously specific questions to try and further box my answers in...

    So no, not going to take the bait, I gave an answer as to why Rey carries on her Mary Sue-nes in TLJ. You chose to ignore it, which is whatever... As I said before, there is no changing your mind. Take it or leave it, it is of no concern to me. I am happy with my answers, and I would hope most rationale people would see thru your game.


    @Moral Hazard

    Thank You for you insightful response. I can't say I agree with you on everything, but, I appreciate your well rounded and respectful posts. One issue I would like to touch upon is the issue of Rey's piloting experience on Jakku compared to Luke's. I do agree with you on the Force. Not so much that it slows things down for them, but, just as Qui Gon said in TPM, it's a sort of premonition that allows them to see things before they happen. So I think we can both agree on the overall effect, with a difference on the specifics.

    My bigger issue is again, the fact that we are not given enough info to even come close to inferring that Rey can do what she did, even with the help of the Force. Lucas was able give very specific relationships that show us why he can do the things he did. Those are the life experiences. He wasn't simply just flying some T-16's back home, he was flying through beggars canyon, which gives him the skill to fly through the Death Stars canyon, or the Trench Run. Luke's ability to target an exhaust port 2 meters wide isn't just some random skill enhanced by the Force, but, a specific skill that he honed at home targeting womp rats.

    Lucas sets up that the skill has to be there first. It's the same thing with Anakin. Anakin, as powerful as he is, doesn't merely jump in a pod racer and starts winning race after race. He fails, again and again. Before finally, just barely winning his first race... Lucas sets up that the Force is not just a "i Win" button. So when we get Rey's "I have flown some ships" that's not a convincing enough argument for me to say, ahh OK, that's how she's doing the things she's doing.

    Again, thank you for your respectful responses!
     
    #140 Mike, Feb 16, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
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