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Can we find common ground?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Lock_S_Foils, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    You made some good points but right off the bat, driving a sky-hopper down a canyon doesn't necessarily makes you qualify to fly an X-Wing if you're going to down play Rey piloting comment. Red Leader question Luke's piloting abilities and wasn't sure Luke could even handle the ship. It was Biggs who had to vouch for him. I personally found Luke's comments about womp rats was him being a bit cocky because you had an experience Rebel pilot who doubted that the shot to exhaust port was impossible which was confirmed later on when Red Leader wasn't able to do it. I personally see Luke and Rey being equal in terms of piloting. Only difference Luke had someone to vouch for him but Rey didn't. Even Luke could of drove the Falcon. It's not like the Falcon is impossible ship to drive where only, Han, Chewie and Lando are the only ones who can pilot it. Rey can easily be labeled as a "mary sue" but I think her piloting skills shouldn't be a negative mark towards her character. Also, about her fixing the Falcon, maybe Han looked over a something simple that he didn't think of at the time? It's not far-fetch to think that. He was without the ship for a good while. It's no different than having Donald Glover's character (who was either fresh out of college or in an internship) in the movie The Martian who came up with a better idea to rescue Matt Damon's character than people with PHDs who has decades of experience of engineering and space travel and are the top minds of NASA in the movie.
     
    #141 deadmanwalkin009, Feb 16, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
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  2. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    the only common ground we can agree on is this....rian johnson is the most toxic, pretentious filmmaker to ever direct a star wars movie. At least lucas was merely a idiot with no talent, who stumbled on something special. Rian johnson regardless of the quality of the final product created a star wars movie that manages to have zero bad acting or dialogue but somehow feels more insulting than the prequels. and to pretend to say "but internet minority" is null and void, TLJ is the worst performing sequel in cinematic history in terms of box office, BESTED BY A BLAND SUPERHERO SEQUEL(age of ultron) AND A MEDIOCRE ADAPTATION OF HARRY POTTER(deathly hallows) , his toxicity even effected the toy sales(the unmoving pillar of pure star wars profit). His lack of worldbuilding talent set the AWFUL underdog VERSUS establishment storyline into stone. His inability to answer basic questions of worldbuilding and character motivation for snoke is pure and utter vindictive bull-sh@t. The backlash against star wars franchise as a whole is all because of rian johnson

    his trilogy needs to be cancelled
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Yeah. that's not how this is done...
     
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  4. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    Okay that's it. I know what would make Rey not be a Mary Sue in my book.
    edit: oops wrong thread editing.
     
  5. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    So your choice is not to answer these questions. But then you did. In fact you youself highlighted the fundamental problem of the Mary Sue category:

    Then, is it a useful category when everyone presents a different number of criteria? If it allows for such flexibility? So whenever someone want to postulate: "this or that character is a Mary Sue", that someone is actually trying to force a square peg down a round hole, because as you say "Mary-Sues are not defined by a must meet checklist of criteria". Indeed the exact reason why people in academia don't use the terms 'Mary Sue' and 'Gary Sue' for media or literary criticism. It is a useless category.

    The criteria I used for a Mary Sue were those used by Max Landis when he first accused Abrams and Kasdan of writing a Mary Sue. Those criteria definitely do not apply to Rey's character in TLJ.

    Why us such an ill-defined category? What reason to accuse Rey of being a Mary Sue character?
     
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  6. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    I think you're overreacting but I don't think TLJ is worse than Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, 2 Fast 2 Furious, Mission Impossible 2, Jaws 2, etc. What do I know, he did create the the best Episode of Breaking Bad which is highly praised by the fan base and tv critics and ranks one of the best tv episodes of all time. Which toys are doing bad? the lower quality toys or the high quality toys? last time I check. SW legos is doing great.
     
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  7. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    I just don't know why the term Mary Sue is so offensive.
    All it is saying is "okay that's it, your story, the plot of which I really want to like, have a Mary Sue, so it needs work because no one real behaves like that, and I can't relate"
    The fact that it is gender specific... Whoever thinks that having a term that is gender specific and therefore insanely offensive please state your opinions about these terms:

    Girl
    Woman
    Women
    Female
    co-ed.

    I want to know whether the each of you think they are offensive. Explain your reasoning.
    I'll go first. I don't think any of them are offensive. This is because they are adjectives used to describe a certain percent of the population.

    edit: about no one from academia uses the term Mary Sue. As I said above, its origin is from fanfic. I doubt any person from academia actually review fanfics. and even Star Wars films unless it's part of some University essay from English class.
     
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  8. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    I just prefer the term overpowered without any training and no character arc.
     
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  9. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    To clarify my position.
    Absolutely no one is stopping any of you from using any term you like regarding Rey as a character. This may include the following, but not limited to:
    Great.
    My heroine.
    Mary Sue
    overpowered.
    needs to be destroyed immediately
    pet character.
    actually a Sith Lord

    So to find common ground regarding the Mary Sue issue. How about I can describe her as a Mary Sue if I want, and other people can keep describing her as a pet character, *other terms*, without being attacked?

    Edit: As an example:
    A: Mary Sue alert, I give you Rey. She has no flaw.
    B: No, Rey is not a pet character, she has the following flaws:
     
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  10. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    What's needed for common ground is that all of the Rian Johnson cultists need to quit the cult, come back to reality, and admit that The Last Jedi is an objectively bad film. Just as important -- all of the right wing sexists and racists need to be ignored. Then we can finally find the common ground of truth.

    Before the film came out, we had a group of fans so confident in Rian, that no possibility of failure entered their minds. Afterward, this group either had to defend their guy or admit they were wrong. Admitting they were wrong has clearly been challenging, and we can see this from all the weak arguments trotted out to defend Rian's poor decisions. We can also see how weak and insecure this group is on forums like TFN, where their mods have had to invent overreaching policies to ban dissent.

    A lot of my ex-friends are in this last group, and it's truly sad to see them feel so driven to defend bad storytelling.

    So is common ground likely? No -- people don't like to admit they were wrong, so we won't see the Rian fans admitting so any time soon. And the racists/sexists suffer from similar problems: too insecure to admit they're wrong about their views. In regards to The Last Jedi, it's not a left wing movie at all. If it were, it wouldn't portray Rey as a weak woman who falls for an abusive male. It wouldn't portray Finn as a joke. It wouldn't portray Holdo as a deaf, irrationally secretive leader. It wouldn't portray Rose as making battle decisions based on a crush.

    The problem with The Last Jedi is bad storytelling. And this invites the right wing to twist the film's narrative to fit their own twisted views.

    So if the majority of us can begin to speak the truth about this film, not only will we find common ground, but we'll also be able to more easily respond to the right's distortions.

    This won't happen though because defending SW and defending Rian Johnson is the default for too many fans.
     
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  11. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    The problem, in a nutshell, I think, is that people don't actually know what is "left." or "right" on the political spectrum.
    They think of themselves as open minded people, as liberals, therefore those who have different opinions must be neo-nazis.
    They think of themselves as the defender of the truth, the right way to do stuff, therefore their opposition must be commies.
    As far as I'm concerned these "feminists" and "sjw" and "liberals" give the true feminists, sjw, and liberals a bad name.
     
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  12. Mike

    Mike Rebel General

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    Why do I care what Max Landis says about why he thinks she is a Mary Sue? Why do I have to answer for Max Landis? As I said, you are being intellectual dishonest in your attempt to try and conflate my reasons for thinking she is a Mary Sue, with why Landis does, and expect me to answer for his qualms... That is ridiculous!

    Oh and BTW, do you have a source for Landis's reasons that you based this overly specific questions on? Besides some vague tweets, there is this Video:



    In which he never spells out the specific questions you are trying to puke on me. What becomes clear, is that if... IF... this is the video you are using as your source for your questions, you are clearly taking things he is saying and again spinning it to your own benefit.

    He says in the video that Solo immediately falls in love with Rey, but somehow you got that as:

    "1. Is Rey immediately liked by everyone in TLJ, and especially by all the male characters?"

    And than expect me to answer for it? Like I said... Why do I have to answer for why Landis thinks she is a Mary Sue. Should I go find someone else that agrees with me, and have you answer for them as to why you don't think so? Or can we just talk about what each other says and thinks rather than trying to pull in others opinions and expect each other to answer for them?

    As for flexibility in the category... ummm there is flexibility in every category of every trope, of every theme of every art, literature, film, music, TV, etc etc etc... There is no category of trope that is so rigid that has to be adhered to strictly, otherwise cannot be considered of value or falling into said category.

    Case in point, the Hero's Journey. Across literature, film, stage, TV, print etc etc etc... The Hero's Journey does not stick to one, exact, unyielding, inflexible, static, unchangeable set of checklist standards in order to be considered a Hero's Journey. The fact of the matter is that the Hero's Journey is flexible. Artists, writers, filmmakers don't sit there with a checklist or Joseph Campbell's books and make sure they hit every note and every theme and every stage of the Monomyth, they in fact decide to leave parts out, and it can still be considered a Hero's Journey. Lucas did this with ANH, he condensed Campbell's Monomyth, and yet we still consider ANH an excellent portrayal of a Hero's Journey.

    And it's a bit laughable to suggest that if there is flexibility in how someone incorporates the Hero's Journey into their story, than it's not a useful category or can't be considered a Hero's Journey... Which is exactly what you are suggesting is what should happen based on your comments about Mary Sue.

    EDIT: Oh and BTW, I just wanted to add.. I don't even know who the hell Landis is or why he would be someone that is used as a standard (as if he was some kind of expert) for questions that need to be answered in order to prove or disprove the issue of Mary Sue...
     
    #152 Mike, Feb 16, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
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  13. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    I cannot like this post enough and this exactly describes the problem as a kind of blindness. This is not good in a relationship and it is not good in fandom. Open your eyes and go beyond group thinking. Like something because you like it as an individual and dislike it if you feel so without any pressure from outside. ;)
     
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  14. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    Wow. Incredible post in a "common ground" thread.....
     
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  15. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    Hey don't worry about it. We all have differing opinions. I don't care if someone has a total opposite view on this film and the director. It's not wrong for you to dislike the film. I positively hate the majority of Rian's decisions. Good for you speaking out. The ones who take the piss and lampoon individuals who dare to speak out forget sometimes we are just individuals on a message board. People who don't like Rian's approach are not an occult we are spreading hatred we are not bots. It's just a horrific film. It doesn't help when the director even physically says 'I didn't want to write it' Then justifys putting left of side angles stories that pop out of nowhere. It's plainly shambolic. Plus yeah this is Rian's story. He's planted himself in the story. When he wrote Kylo he became Kylo. That is why TFA and TLJ don't correlate. He had no imput in Kylo character before TLJ. But when he got his hand on the pen. That's it goodnight to the fans goodnight to the rest of the characters. He is Mr Star Wars and nothing eles matters because he is the star. Character motivation change to suit him. Characters get pushed to the side. It's not for the benefit of seven stories previous its about Rian and Rian only.

    I don't mind speaking out. No doubt the naysers will pop out and hand out the negs but you know common grounds. This is a message board after all, its common to find dissidents along side of accepting. If it starts to get personal flick on the ignore. It's made it a lot more enjoyable blocking out ones with personal vendettas.

    Keep being honest Dra. That's all I can say.
     
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  16. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    I hate how the Internet is all "my way or the highway" sometimes. So, you won't accept people who genuinely like the movie? It's cool an all that you hate it by the way.
     
    #156 Andrew Waples, Feb 16, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
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  17. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    Thanks to everyone for participating in this thread.

    It is obvious now that the answer to my OP is "No".
     
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  18. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    It's kinda sad really... I mean it's just a goddamn popcorn flick.
     
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  19. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Rebel Official

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    I suppose some find it an offensive term because they think it's unfair a female Jedi is being bashed for her great powers, and in their eyes the bashing was legitimately less in comparison to other lead Jedi characters in the saga. I will say I see more bashing of Rey than I have ever seen of Luke and Anakin. I've seen good points made about Luke, Anakin, and Rey comparing and contrasting their development and powers. I personally think Luke's development was great. But I do understand the argument of Anakin's fantastic abilities at a young age and the lack of fan outrage toward that in specific compared to Rey's mega powers.
     
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  20. Buckeye94

    Buckeye94 Rebel General

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    Yeah, I don't think there's much common ground between the lovers and haters of TLJ. We all just have too strong of feelings on the subject.
     
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